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    Real Strategy Requires Cunning

goobermaster

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mib said:
That's the plan. :D Though there is a load of events to make the lives of NatChi and ComChi harder, too... I'm just thinking that on N/N it's far too easy to annex China as Japan, or to reunite China as NatChi or ComChi. Difficult = good.
As a longtime Japan player, difficult does equal good. And you are quite right. The unimaginibly colossal task of occupying mainland China as overstretched Japan is not modelled accurately. It should truly be a difficult achievement.

May I suggest an event that randomly spawns revolts in occupied Chinese territorities every month or so, along with hugely raised partisan values? That would add another dimension - having to pull frontline troops of to chase down rebels...
 

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goobermaster said:
As a longtime Japan player, difficult does equal good. And you are quite right. The unimaginibly colossal task of occupying mainland China as overstretched Japan is not modelled accurately. It should truly be a difficult achievement.

May I suggest an event that randomly spawns revolts in occupied Chinese territorities every month or so, along with hugely raised partisan values? That would add another dimension - having to pull frontline troops of to chase down rebels...
I'm not sure if simple partisan uprisings could have the desired effect. As China a few garrison and a couple of cav + mtn is enough to put down any insurrection in Japan and Siberia... and Siberia has infra of 20% avg so... :rolleyes:
 

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mib said:
Why iron? The agreement they had was for tungsten, which is a rare resource.
Thx for the link. Well because the reason why Hitler is pro-Japan because he think Jap is stronger and that the Jap promise to give them Iron which the Ger really needed. Maybe u ar right this is a bit too complex for the game. Anyway in the end the Jap just ignored their promise and never give the Ger the iron that they promised. Btw if the com chinese united china does it include Mongolina?
 
Last edited:

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Genghis_Kan said:
Thx for the link. Well because the reason why Hitler is pro-Japan because he think Jap is stronger and that the Jap promise to give them Iron which the Ger really needed. Maybe u ar right this is a bit too complex for the game. Anyway in the end the Jap just ignored their promise and never give the Ger the iron that they promised. Btw if the com chinese united china does it include Mongolina?
Eh? I was under the impression that the deal was mainly for tungsten. :wacko:

ComChi does not have Mongolia as their core territory. Of course, there might be a fantasy event where if USSR gets Bitter Peaced, Mongolia would revert to Chinese (Nat+Com) control, but nothing is planned for the moment.

In the mean time, Mongolian nationalists can play as ComChi to avoid annexation of Mongolia by NatChi. :rolleyes:
 
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if you change history in your mod it will not change in history books too

and i know that japaneses make atrocities in china during WW2... but a chinese arguing that? :rofl: when 20 years before nanking a man was ripped alive in plaza for trying to kill the emperor :D
 

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Well, its just a choice, not like he is pretending it never happened.

And as for chinese, I think only the older generation or the actual Chinese living on the mainland still hate the japanese. Most of the chinese that migrated overseas or the younger generation don't really give a damn about what happened in WWII.

I live in Singapore, 70% of the population is Chinese. If i mention Nanking Massacre, most likely about 40% of the chinese asked here won't know what you are refering to exactly.

Ethnic ties to the motherland isn't exactly very strong once you live a couple of generations overseas, and i think it is especially true in western societies which are very different from asian ones.
 

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Zeratul said:
if you change history in your mod it will not change in history books too
I am well aware of that. There is a reason HOI2: DD is a game not a history textbook. :rolleyes:

Zeratul said:
and i know that japaneses make atrocities in china during WW2... but a chinese arguing that? :rofl: when 20 years before nanking a man was ripped alive in plaza for trying to kill the emperor :D
Uh what? If you're referring to my modified Nanking Massacre event, it's simply a choice so that JAP players need not be mass murderers. Anything wrong with that? Besides, hardcore Japanophiles can choose the option chosen by the hardcore Japanese, ie. shout "COMMUNIST PROPAGANDA!" :rofl:

PS in 1917 there was no Emperor.

regret said:
Well, its just a choice, not like he is pretending it never happened.

And as for chinese, I think only the older generation or the actual Chinese living on the mainland still hate the japanese. Most of the chinese that migrated overseas or the younger generation don't really give a damn about what happened in WWII.

I live in Singapore, 70% of the population is Chinese. If i mention Nanking Massacre, most likely about 40% of the chinese asked here won't know what you are refering to exactly.

Ethnic ties to the motherland isn't exactly very strong once you live a couple of generations overseas, and i think it is especially true in western societies which are very different from asian ones.
Fellow Singaporean? :D Well, I'm pretty sure that when I went to TCHS everyone there knew about the Nanking Massacre. But maybe it's just because of T*C*HS, haha.

Chinese Fenqing (angry young men) are too focused on the Nanking Massacre as an avenue of nationalistic expression. The CPC government denies that the Nationalists did the bulk of the fighting, so without a bag of their own victories the former Communists could not use the "frontal" war for this. Sad really. Militarism is a lesser evil compared to self-victimisation.
 

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Lol, your from Chinese High? Never knew you were singaporean Mib, always thought you were american chinese or something.

Well, maybe i should correct myself, many people "heard" of the Nanking Massacre, just that they treat it like the holocaust. Just something terrible that happened a long time ago and has no bearing on their lives today. And even than, most likely they don't even know what happened. Just some massacre that happened in WWII over in China that the Japanese did.

I mean if i recall right, all it says in our local history books is about less than 1 sentence.

Whatever the case, I do agree that the Japanese player should be given a choice to proceed or stop the event from happening. As an ahistorical game, most events should have an option to proceed or not or even take the unlikely 3rd option.

Although I feel that there should be a penalty for stopping it (Reflecting the troops unhappiness of being stopped from being able to pillage/plunder, as I understand it, it was common for the lesser ranks to do that even if the higher echelons stopped it as they felt it was their right as spoils of victory).

Afraid I have not looked into your V.2 events yet so not sure how you did that event exactly.
 

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guys just chill out. this is just a game and we can't change history. the most important thing is to enjoy the game and maybe learn some history on the way. Btw mib i was thinking that u should set up a fantasy event which the Ger provide support to the Nat Chi but only if Nat Chi reject Soviet support (Operation Zet). Also I think in the Operation Zet event if Nat Chi accept the support there should be a decrease in relationship with Ger. So wt do u think?
 

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Yeah that'd be a good idea. But then the +1 isolationism slider would not be appropriate...

PS. Historically the Jerries didn't say much when Chiang got some spiffy Soviet tanks/planes, but you never know whether it might have contributed to Hitler's decision to recognise Manchuria.
 

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regret said:
Well, its just a choice, not like he is pretending it never happened.

And as for chinese, I think only the older generation or the actual Chinese living on the mainland still hate the japanese. Most of the chinese that migrated overseas or the younger generation don't really give a damn about what happened in WWII.

I live in Singapore, 70% of the population is Chinese. If i mention Nanking Massacre, most likely about 40% of the chinese asked here won't know what you are refering to exactly.

Ethnic ties to the motherland isn't exactly very strong once you live a couple of generations overseas, and i think it is especially true in western societies which are very different from asian ones.
OMG i don't agree because i still hate those damn Japanese nowadays and dream to conquer them one day.....(i am a Chinese:D)
 

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Mib, don't know if you've known it already or not.
Paradox used a silly and wrong pic for CHI tech team "Yong Li". (It's a pic in the third page of Google. And nothing to do with the actual company. THere is even an air conditioner on the building in that pic.)
The complete name of this comapny is 永利制碱公司(Yong Li Alkali Company)
And the correct pic for this tech team could be this: (The creator of this company: 范旭东(1883—1945))
 

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him_15 said:
Mib, don't know if you've known it already or not.
Paradox used a silly and wrong pic for CHI tech team "Yong Li". (It's a pic in the third page of Google. And nothing to do with the actual company. THere is even an air conditioner on the building in that pic.)
The complete name of this comapny is 永利制碱公司(Yong Li Alkali Company)
And the correct pic for this tech team could be this: (The creator of this company: 范旭东(1883—1945))
Great find! Thanks him_15, I'll check up on the company and find a better pic (of the company itself) if possible.
 

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mib said:
This seems to be a picture of Yong Li Alkali Company...



I'll incorporate it into the next version.
Mib, the company in that pic is combined by Yong Li Alkali Company and another chinese chemical company in 50s.
 

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regret said:
Lol, your from Chinese High? Never knew you were singaporean Mib, always thought you were american chinese or something.

Well, maybe i should correct myself, many people "heard" of the Nanking Massacre, just that they treat it like the holocaust. Just something terrible that happened a long time ago and has no bearing on their lives today. And even than, most likely they don't even know what happened. Just some massacre that happened in WWII over in China that the Japanese did.

I mean if i recall right, all it says in our local history books is about less than 1 sentence.
<snip>
Another Singaporean? They are all over the Internet, aren't they.

Speaking as a Yank whose history education pretty much ignored anyone the US (or the Roman Empire) hasn't gone to war with, I'd have to agree with the setiment of how the non-Chinese viewed what happened at Nanjing. Like Italy using poison gas in Ethiopia, or Germany's flattening of a city in the SCW, it showed the world what was going to happen next and made it nearly impossible to be openly fascist in a non fascist country. Kinda like how the destruction of the World Trade Center finally discredited the terrorist apologists.

Nanjing was an open city - it didn't fight, but the citizens were slaughtered anyway. If you're damned if you do and damned if you don't you might as well fight. The rest of Asia knew what would happen to them if Japan wasn't stopped. And the rest of us knew what would happen to our territories out there (Phillippines, French Indo China, Hong King and Malaysia, NEI) if Japan wasn't stopped.

I think we got about a sentence in our history text too. It said something like "It demonstrated the true motives and ambitions of the Japanese of that time," implying "in a way that all their propaganda couldn't obscure" and leading to "and this is what happened next". By contrast, Hitler played it close to the vest - it wasn't until early '39 that the west realised he was lying, and not until '45 that the full extent of his horros came to light. Moussolini was discredited in '36 in Ethiopia. Japan was discredited in '37.

After Nanjing, at least among the Yanks, we didn't think appeasement would stop the Japanese crocodile, the way the Europeans felt about "those poor Germans and their legitimate grievances with the Treaty of Versailles." Our philosophy was split between those who argued "We're bigger than it and it's all the way on the other side of the damn ocean! And it's not our problem anyway!" vs "Lets stop it now before it gets any bigger and becomes our problem!" A debate that paralyzed this country until Pearl Harbor.

It was one of those rare events that placed one side squarely on the "Evil / Bad / Wrong" side. But, like the Holocaust, I'm sure it plays differently to the relations of those effected. One of the reasons you have to tread very carefully around these subjects, even in games.
 

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Ex Mudder said:
Another Singaporean? They are all over the Internet, aren't they.
You bet. Hugely overrepresented.

Ex Mudder said:
Speaking as a Yank whose history education pretty much ignored anyone the US (or the Roman Empire) hasn't gone to war with,
Hmm... It's unfortunate the Parthians were in the middle, otherwise there could have been quite a showdown.
Ex Mudder said:
I'd have to agree with the setiment of how the non-Chinese viewed what happened at Nanjing. Like Italy using poison gas in Ethiopia, or Germany's flattening of a city in the SCW, it showed the world what was going to happen next and made it nearly impossible to be openly fascist in a non fascist country. Kinda like how the destruction of the World Trade Center finally discredited the terrorist apologists.

Nanjing was an open city - it didn't fight, but the citizens were slaughtered anyway. If you're damned if you do and damned if you don't you might as well fight. The rest of Asia knew what would happen to them if Japan wasn't stopped. And the rest of us knew what would happen to our territories out there (Phillippines, French Indo China, Hong King and Malaysia, NEI) if Japan wasn't stopped.
Actually, Nanjing did fight... by some accounts quite ferociously. But slaughtering civilians because of the resistance of a city was something practiced by Attila's Huns. So that's not an excuse.

Ex Mudder said:
I think we got about a sentence in our history text too. It said something like "It demonstrated the true motives and ambitions of the Japanese of that time," implying "in a way that all their propaganda couldn't obscure" and leading to "and this is what happened next". By contrast, Hitler played it close to the vest - it wasn't until early '39 that the west realised he was lying, and not until '45 that the full extent of his horros came to light. Moussolini was discredited in '36 in Ethiopia. Japan was discredited in '37.
Oh? That's a lot more subjective than most history books I've come across. Most books have something like (if they have it at all) "The Japanese Army upon entering Nanjing commited the infamous Nanjing Massacre, killing by most estimates some 300,000 people." Full stop. Nothing more mentioned after that. (Then Panay gets a few paragraphs of stuff...)

Ex Mudder said:
After Nanjing, at least among the Yanks, we didn't think appeasement would stop the Japanese crocodile, the way the Europeans felt about "those poor Germans and their legitimate grievances with the Treaty of Versailles." Our philosophy was split between those who argued "We're bigger than it and it's all the way on the other side of the damn ocean! And it's not our problem anyway!" vs "Lets stop it now before it gets any bigger and becomes our problem!" A debate that paralyzed this country until Pearl Harbor.
I recently watched Frank Capra's 1944 propaganda classic "Why We Fight" and one hour was devoted to the "Battle of China". It mentioned popular support for China by the America at various points from 1937-1941, it was interesting that their support seemed to be an effect of the various interventionist legislations passed, and not the other way round.

Ex Mudder said:
It was one of those rare events that placed one side squarely on the "Evil / Bad / Wrong" side. But, like the Holocaust, I'm sure it plays differently to the relations of those effected. One of the reasons you have to tread very carefully around these subjects, even in games.
Si, si.

him_15 said:
Mib, the company in that pic is combined by Yong Li Alkali Company and another chinese chemical company in 50s.
Oh damn. How the heck do you know that stuff anyway? :rolleyes:
 

kodiak491

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Love the CCIP!
I'm playing my first ComChina CCIP game right now and I have a few suggestions.

1. The event that gives CC the Manchukuoan troops fired almost 2years after I attacked and annexed Manchukuo. You might consider disabling the event if CC actually declares war on Manchukuo directly. Seems less likely that the troops would go over to the Communists if they lost a direct war with them.

2. I allied with Japan after the MPB event and when we beat NatChina the event fired where the Nationalists beg for Japanese mercy. The Japs decided to puppet NatChina, but I got every territory except Tangshan. So the newly released NatChinese puppet had one zero IC province and I got all the rest. This could be fixed by having NatChina secede all its prov's to Japan first and then be absorbed and released. Thus keeping a ComChina from becoming too powerful for the Jap's and quickly restarting the Chinese war with new sides.

3. ComChina has too few leaders for its potential troop size. By 1943 I have 240+ divisions and not enough leaders for them. Even manually promoting everybody leaves me having to leave some of my coastal divisions leaderless. I know its hard to find info on early ComChinese generals but maybe we could look at incorporating some of the defeated generals from the other Chinese states as they are defeated. Possibly they could be given a one level rank reduction to simulate the Communists not fully trusting them and limiting their authority.

Would love to hear what you think about these ideas. Great mod, I'm looking forward to future releases.
 

mib

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kodiak491 said:
Love the CCIP!
I'm playing my first ComChina CCIP game right now and I have a few suggestions.
Thanks! Love suggestions.

kodiak491 said:
1. The event that gives CC the Manchukuoan troops fired almost 2years after I attacked and annexed Manchukuo. You might consider disabling the event if CC actually declares war on Manchukuo directly. Seems less likely that the troops would go over to the Communists if they lost a direct war with them.
OK I'll be the first to confess that I don't play ComChi... :eek:o

When you said, "declares war on Manchukuo directly", do you mean that you did not go to war with Japan? Instead you DoWed Manchukuo and brought Japan into the war? :confused: Anyway, I didn't write this event so I don't know what Duke_of_BOOM! was smoking at the time... :rofl: CHC absorbing Manchkuo armies (as opposed to defectors) would be credibility suicide a la what the KMT did IRL. I'll probably tone it down to represent defectors and not wholesale army conversion.

kodiak491 said:
2. I allied with Japan after the MPB event and when we beat NatChina the event fired where the Nationalists beg for Japanese mercy. The Japs decided to puppet NatChina, but I got every territory except Tangshan. So the newly released NatChinese puppet had one zero IC province and I got all the rest. This could be fixed by having NatChina secede all its prov's to Japan first and then be absorbed and released. Thus keeping a ComChina from becoming too powerful for the Jap's and quickly restarting the Chinese war with new sides.
Why is allying with Japan to backstab NatChi the favourite strategy for ComChi??? :eek:o :mad: :rolleyes: Anyway, I don't think a CHC-JAP alliance is "supported", but I'd be looking into it nontheless. This looks weird because if anything NatChi should have held on to Nanjing and not Tangshan (which is occupied by Japan at the start of the game.)

kodiak491 said:
3. ComChina has too few leaders for its potential troop size. By 1943 I have 240+ divisions and not enough leaders for them. Even manually promoting everybody leaves me having to leave some of my coastal divisions leaderless. I know its hard to find info on early ComChinese generals but maybe we could look at incorporating some of the defeated generals from the other Chinese states as they are defeated. Possibly they could be given a one level rank reduction to simulate the Communists not fully trusting them and limiting their authority.
Leaders are a big headache for me too. My Bai Chongxi could be fighting Guangxi's Bai Chongxi at the same time. :eek: Anyway, did you turn on autopromote? If so that might help a bit. I'm thinking of changing the land leader autopromotion "blueprint" or whatever you call it, to let CHI and CHC have more high rank generals and less major gens.

kodiak491 said:
Would love to hear what you think about these ideas. Great mod, I'm looking forward to future releases.
Between AP exams, volunteer work, Wikipedia and high skool, I'm doing my best! :p