Here's the chapter of the book. Ch. 3 of that book
I'm confused about the jstor link- what did you want me to do with the article?
I'm confused about the jstor link- what did you want me to do with the article?
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mib said:Some very interesting discussion up there...
Anyway it makes no sense to update to 1.3a when "A" is coming out on the 29th... and it's only 5 bucks, which I've saved up by deciding not to buy C&C3 Kane Edition...
Glad you like it, it is your thread and we have hijacked it for the moment, but I assume it´s close enough to your interest to fit in.
semihippie said:
Thanks a lot!! May I impose on you a little more and ask wether you can try and scan it a little bit better without the large black spots? It is readable, but if it is not too much work, a "perfect" copy would be ideal.
The JSTOR link leads me to the first page of the article. If you have university access, you can probably read the whole article without problems but a private user will only get the first page.
The article is "German Mediation in the Sino-Japanese War, 1937 - 1938", James T.C. Liu, The Far Eastern Quarterly, Vol. 8, No. 2 (Feb. 1949), pp. 157 - 171.
Thanks again, off I go and read ....
Hope I get some replies
Questions or discoveries
1) Who is the Chinese head of state "T.H. Yeh"? It would be great if there was a surname given, as I simply cannot find this individual anywhere on Wikipedia or Google for that matter. This is probably the result that most Chinese historical people have at least 2-4 different English names, much like Sun Liren's name may be rewritten as Sun Li-Jen, Sun Fu-Mein, Sun Chung-Neng and so forth.
2) I notice, especially with the fall of Shanxi event, that I get two Yan-Xisan. Could it be possible to sleep that respective leader (the Shanxi one) before Shanxi is annexed by Nationalist China?
3) I do not know how, it was a first, but I was able to more or less defeat Japan very earlier in the game by 1936 December (before the historical date of Marco Polo). That is not my complaint... my complaint being, when the Warlords summited, Tibet never replied or anything. I think this has to do with the fact that Tibet's starting date for the Warlord summibition is 1938, meaning if you defeat Japan before 1938, Tibet will never be given the option to summit or anything. I recommend changing this to 1936?
4) "None shall disrespect Kai-Shek! Arrest them all as traitors! Muahhahah!". I choose this for the first time in the mod and I was shocked that I was given a choice in the "Gaunxi launching civil war" event of preparing against the Japanese. I would think that, if you choose the arrest the traitors in the Xia'ma event, that Gaunxi would launch their civil war anyway? Additionally, although its nice to see that Zhang Xueling leader actually gets slept (unlike before, where they had the wrong number and he stayed around after being arrested), but his minister still remains as chooseable.
Zhang Xueling: I don't wanna
Chiang Kai-Shek: *Loads a pistol and holds Xueling at gunpoint* You better reduce the supply consumption of my army by 15%! :rofl:
5) Communists are too easily defeated. The real easy tactic, although gamey, is simply to military control Shanxi and tell them to occupy the CHC capitol, which is usually undefended. When occupied, even if Shanxi is repelled, the place just never rebuilds fast enough and the Nationalists have no problem winning.
Questions or discoveries
1) Who is the Chinese head of state "T.H. Yeh"? It would be great if there was a surname given, as I simply cannot find this individual anywhere on Wikipedia or Google for that matter. This is probably the result that most Chinese historical people have at least 2-4 different English names, much like Sun Liren's name may be rewritten as Sun Li-Jen, Sun Fu-Mein, Sun Chung-Neng and so forth.
2) I notice, especially with the fall of Shanxi event, that I get two Yan-Xisan. Could it be possible to sleep that respective leader (the Shanxi one) before Shanxi is annexed by Nationalist China?
3) I do not know how, it was a first, but I was able to more or less defeat Japan very earlier in the game by 1936 December (before the historical date of Marco Polo). That is not my complaint... my complaint being, when the Warlords summited, Tibet never replied or anything. I think this has to do with the fact that Tibet's starting date for the Warlord summibition is 1938, meaning if you defeat Japan before 1938, Tibet will never be given the option to summit or anything. I recommend changing this to 1936?
4) "None shall disrespect Kai-Shek! Arrest them all as traitors! Muahhahah!". I choose this for the first time in the mod and I was shocked that I was given a choice in the "Gaunxi launching civil war" event of preparing against the Japanese. I would think that, if you choose the arrest the traitors in the Xia'ma event, that Gaunxi would launch their civil war anyway? Additionally, although its nice to see that Zhang Xueling leader actually gets slept (unlike before, where they had the wrong number and he stayed around after being arrested), but his minister still remains as chooseable.
Zhang Xueling: I don't wanna
Chiang Kai-Shek: *Loads a pistol and holds Xueling at gunpoint* You better reduce the supply consumption of my army by 15%! :rofl:
5) Communists are too easily defeated. The real easy tactic, although gamey, is simply to military control Shanxi and tell them to occupy the CHC capitol, which is usually undefended. When occupied, even if Shanxi is repelled, the place just never rebuilds fast enough and the Nationalists have no problem winning.
Manchukuo!
Regarding CCIP and Manchuko...
Perhaps I am the only person here who tried to play Manchukuo, but nonetheless I find it a rather entertaining country to play as.
Of course this is not a final list... but eh, here we go! (I will try to get sources later on)
==== Ministers====
(Pujie's page on Wikipedia is appaling to say the least, but I do know quite a bit on the man nonetheless. He was the heir to the Manchukoian throne, married a Japanese lady... Which introduced Japanese Royal blood into the Manchukoian throne. Had two kids (girls I thinks), was trained as a Japanese officer... Would not surprise me if the Japanese had intention to kill Puyi eventually and replace him with Pujie. Probably because Puyi was always resistant in my opinion, of course he went along, but stubborningly at that).
Head of State: Pujie
Trait: Benevolet Gentlemen, Resigned Generalissmo, or Stern Imperialist?
Picture: (I have yet to find a good picture on Pujie... but I am going to ask a few of my History friends, they should have something on Pujie)
Head of Government: Pujie's advisor at the Japanese officer academy... The name totally escapes me
Leaders... Zhang Xueling... Interesting fella, as he practically served decades under house arrest and lived till the age of 101... anyway, Someone humor me... Could Zhang Xueling have defected to the Manchukuo? Especially if he had the chance to escape being arrested by Chiang after the X'ian incident? I know he was an anti-Japanese, especially because they killed his father, but then again... wasn't Wang JingWei the same deal?
===== Events =======
* Death of Puyi... It had to come eventually, right? Perhaps Puyi gets a little frisky after the Chinese surrender event and demands to be the Monarchy of all of China... or whatever reason (the Japanese were good at making up excuses). So the Japanese have Puyi killed by some fake Communist or whatever, and Pujie ascends to the Throne of Manchuko.
* Economic events... or simply change the inital industry of Manchukuo? I am not sure on this... But isn't Manchuko considered the economic center of China? At least back then? I had a very good site which had everything of coal, energy, and populations of all the countries of the world from the 1800s to 2006... lost it, damnit! Anyway, I always thought Manchuko was a very rich region (contained most of China's industries and railways... developed coal and steel reserves, etc), yet it only has 20 industrial capacity in the game and not so good resources. In fact, it only has the metal and coal to build an additional 7 industrial capacity (meaning 27 base altogether! Completely ludicrus! Anyway, to reflect Japanese investment, yearly or every other year... events to boost resources... criteria? Must remain puppet to Japan?)
* Defense events... Much like the Soviet Military... Defensive efficency should be rather laughable (see Army section). Additionally, there should also be an event that creates Forts on the borders with the Soviet Union (The Japanese did create a rather impressive defense system, sadly, no use as the Manchukoians didn't even bother to defend their country. I will post source/pictures later)
* Army reform (Ehh somewhat gamey... but something like ai Chance 1% Yes, 99% no... If someone is playing Manchukuo, they should have the option of reforming their army... Probably at the cost of dissent and sacking a few white Russian Generals... so the army doesn't compromise of drug addicts who surrender after the first shot)
* Cores.... self explainatory... Manchukuo should get cores on Dalian, Tangstan, the western provinces back... etc... If Japan goes to war with the Soviet Union, Manchukuo should be given cores on Soviet Manchuria (much like how United China has the remembering the humilation treaties event and gets core on Soviet Manchuria)
=== Tech Teams===
(not exactly a final list)
(Why does it bother me, that Mengchukuo, has somewhat comparable or even better tech teams than Manchukuo?)
* Bank of Manchukuo
* Manchukuo Agriculture (then again, I think the colonial development tech team covers this)
* Har-Bin University (Or alternatively, Manchukuo University... Manchukuo did have one of the best education systems in China, if not thee best. Should be comparable to the Universities of United China event or maybe even slighty better).
=== Population ===
* Another example of Paradox's left wing conspriacy! :rofl: Manchuko has a daily increase of 0.20 in the game, when it historically had nearly 50 million by 1940. Should it not be .40 or .50 population increase? People bitched about Turkey being screwed over, but Manchuko is surely the biggest example of being screwed over in both industrial capacity and population.
Of course, I leave it to the OP or others for their imagination.
=== Economy ===
Manchukuo should be richer in terms of resources... right? It pathetically starts off with 20 IC and absymial resources... bah? Its basically screams that resource-deprived countries like Greece, Portugal, Italy, Bulgaria, etc, are richer in resources than Manchuko... Complete garbage. Manchukuo, even today, is one of the richest, if not thee richest, resource region in China. It contains large reserves of oil (it was even producing oil back in the 30s... not much tho... it was not till the 60s or 70s that the Chinese actually developed it themselves... was one of the largest oil reserves in the world I believe?), coal, steel, and so forth. It was also the richest agricultural region in China (The Japanese were dependent on Manchukuo for food, but yes I know, food is not represented in Hoi2, but whatever) and as well was also a chief Timber exporter. As well, Manchukuo did contain a good portion of China's industry and railways, at least in the 1930s and 1940s. As well during Japanese occupation and the Manchukoian regime of Puyi, the Japanese poured in tremendous amounts of money through investment.
Suggestion
Manchukuo should definately start off with more resources and industrial capacity... but of course, to represent Japanese investment (building dams, increased timber harvest, etc etc). There should probably be yearly events that increased Manchukuo's resources. Much like seen with United China's resource development chain of events. Manchuria is not an industrial devoided area.... It was the 3rd most industrially developed region in all of Asia. Logically after both the USSR and Japan. Manchuko industry also contained many advanced and modern industries, to the point that the Soviets basically took them following the war. I do not know what Manchuko had in terms of rares (it should have a minor deficiant, much like how Italy and Japan has no "rares", despite both having quite a bit).
=== Army ===
While it seems that my post seems largely pro-Manchukuo... the army of Manchukuo was simply laughable at best. It was largely formed from the Remnants of the Warlord Zhoulin's army, and additionally, the army also compromised of mercenaries, opium addicts who needed money to support their habits, and lastily White Russians. It wasn't really a surprise, when the Russians invaded, that the "highly trained Manchukoian Imperial army" mostly deserted or surrendered.
Anyway, I don't see any reason to change the army... But its probably the actual reason why Paradox shafted Manchuko so badly (in terms of everything!), so they would hardly build any infantry or put up a defense when invaded either by the Soviets or the Chinese (the latter being true, as I never see Manchukoian soldiers when I enter Manchukuo and I usaully annex Manchuko a few weeks after I enter their country :rofl: )
Suggestions: Base defense as seen with the Soviet Union (argubly worse?).
Forts should be added through events (or alternatively, Manchukuo A.I. should be programmed to build level 2-3 forts on the borders?).
Regarding CCIP and Manchuko...
Perhaps I am the only person here who tried to play Manchukuo, but nonetheless I find it a rather entertaining country to play as.
Of course this is not a final list... but eh, here we go! (I will try to get sources later on)
==== Ministers====
(Pujie's page on Wikipedia is appaling to say the least, but I do know quite a bit on the man nonetheless. He was the heir to the Manchukoian throne, married a Japanese lady... Which introduced Japanese Royal blood into the Manchukoian throne. Had two kids (girls I thinks), was trained as a Japanese officer... Would not surprise me if the Japanese had intention to kill Puyi eventually and replace him with Pujie. Probably because Puyi was always resistant in my opinion, of course he went along, but stubborningly at that).
Head of State: Pujie
Trait: Benevolet Gentlemen, Resigned Generalissmo, or Stern Imperialist?
Picture: (I have yet to find a good picture on Pujie... but I am going to ask a few of my History friends, they should have something on Pujie)
Head of Government: Pujie's advisor at the Japanese officer academy... The name totally escapes me
Leaders... Zhang Xueling... Interesting fella, as he practically served decades under house arrest and lived till the age of 101... anyway, Someone humor me... Could Zhang Xueling have defected to the Manchukuo? Especially if he had the chance to escape being arrested by Chiang after the X'ian incident? I know he was an anti-Japanese, especially because they killed his father, but then again... wasn't Wang JingWei the same deal?
===== Events =======
* Death of Puyi... It had to come eventually, right? Perhaps Puyi gets a little frisky after the Chinese surrender event and demands to be the Monarchy of all of China... or whatever reason (the Japanese were good at making up excuses). So the Japanese have Puyi killed by some fake Communist or whatever, and Pujie ascends to the Throne of Manchuko.
* Economic events... or simply change the inital industry of Manchukuo? I am not sure on this... But isn't Manchuko considered the economic center of China? At least back then? I had a very good site which had everything of coal, energy, and populations of all the countries of the world from the 1800s to 2006... lost it, damnit! Anyway, I always thought Manchuko was a very rich region (contained most of China's industries and railways... developed coal and steel reserves, etc), yet it only has 20 industrial capacity in the game and not so good resources. In fact, it only has the metal and coal to build an additional 7 industrial capacity (meaning 27 base altogether! Completely ludicrus! Anyway, to reflect Japanese investment, yearly or every other year... events to boost resources... criteria? Must remain puppet to Japan?)
* Defense events... Much like the Soviet Military... Defensive efficency should be rather laughable (see Army section). Additionally, there should also be an event that creates Forts on the borders with the Soviet Union (The Japanese did create a rather impressive defense system, sadly, no use as the Manchukoians didn't even bother to defend their country. I will post source/pictures later)
* Army reform (Ehh somewhat gamey... but something like ai Chance 1% Yes, 99% no... If someone is playing Manchukuo, they should have the option of reforming their army... Probably at the cost of dissent and sacking a few white Russian Generals... so the army doesn't compromise of drug addicts who surrender after the first shot)
* Cores.... self explainatory... Manchukuo should get cores on Dalian, Tangstan, the western provinces back... etc... If Japan goes to war with the Soviet Union, Manchukuo should be given cores on Soviet Manchuria (much like how United China has the remembering the humilation treaties event and gets core on Soviet Manchuria)
=== Tech Teams===
(not exactly a final list)
(Why does it bother me, that Mengchukuo, has somewhat comparable or even better tech teams than Manchukuo?)
* Bank of Manchukuo
* Manchukuo Agriculture (then again, I think the colonial development tech team covers this)
* Har-Bin University (Or alternatively, Manchukuo University... Manchukuo did have one of the best education systems in China, if not thee best. Should be comparable to the Universities of United China event or maybe even slighty better).
=== Population ===
* Another example of Paradox's left wing conspriacy! :rofl: Manchuko has a daily increase of 0.20 in the game, when it historically had nearly 50 million by 1940. Should it not be .40 or .50 population increase? People bitched about Turkey being screwed over, but Manchuko is surely the biggest example of being screwed over in both industrial capacity and population.
Of course, I leave it to the OP or others for their imagination.
=== Economy ===
Manchukuo should be richer in terms of resources... right? It pathetically starts off with 20 IC and absymial resources... bah? Its basically screams that resource-deprived countries like Greece, Portugal, Italy, Bulgaria, etc, are richer in resources than Manchuko... Complete garbage. Manchukuo, even today, is one of the richest, if not thee richest, resource region in China. It contains large reserves of oil (it was even producing oil back in the 30s... not much tho... it was not till the 60s or 70s that the Chinese actually developed it themselves... was one of the largest oil reserves in the world I believe?), coal, steel, and so forth. It was also the richest agricultural region in China (The Japanese were dependent on Manchukuo for food, but yes I know, food is not represented in Hoi2, but whatever) and as well was also a chief Timber exporter. As well, Manchukuo did contain a good portion of China's industry and railways, at least in the 1930s and 1940s. As well during Japanese occupation and the Manchukoian regime of Puyi, the Japanese poured in tremendous amounts of money through investment.
Suggestion
Manchukuo should definately start off with more resources and industrial capacity... but of course, to represent Japanese investment (building dams, increased timber harvest, etc etc). There should probably be yearly events that increased Manchukuo's resources. Much like seen with United China's resource development chain of events. Manchuria is not an industrial devoided area.... It was the 3rd most industrially developed region in all of Asia. Logically after both the USSR and Japan. Manchuko industry also contained many advanced and modern industries, to the point that the Soviets basically took them following the war. I do not know what Manchuko had in terms of rares (it should have a minor deficiant, much like how Italy and Japan has no "rares", despite both having quite a bit).
=== Army ===
While it seems that my post seems largely pro-Manchukuo... the army of Manchukuo was simply laughable at best. It was largely formed from the Remnants of the Warlord Zhoulin's army, and additionally, the army also compromised of mercenaries, opium addicts who needed money to support their habits, and lastily White Russians. It wasn't really a surprise, when the Russians invaded, that the "highly trained Manchukoian Imperial army" mostly deserted or surrendered.
Anyway, I don't see any reason to change the army... But its probably the actual reason why Paradox shafted Manchuko so badly (in terms of everything!), so they would hardly build any infantry or put up a defense when invaded either by the Soviets or the Chinese (the latter being true, as I never see Manchukoian soldiers when I enter Manchukuo and I usaully annex Manchuko a few weeks after I enter their country :rofl: )
Suggestions: Base defense as seen with the Soviet Union (argubly worse?).
Forts should be added through events (or alternatively, Manchukuo A.I. should be programmed to build level 2-3 forts on the borders?).
hgt said:
I am talking about 1936 war and yes they are. I purposelly let the Communist move into the Ma Clique's desert territory, which leaves their capitol usually undefended, and Shanxi forces (seeing as they have around 20ish divisions) usually have no problem in taking the Communist capital their IC to 0 and result in CHC having no supplies and increased dissent. Sometimes, if I do it fast enough, I can annex CHC before the X'ian incident.
In another game... I had no problem defeating the CHC in the second Chinese Civil War (after the defeat of Japan). Then again, probably realistic, as I would imagine the people would have SOME faith in Chiang, especially when he actually defeated the Japanese singlehandily and rather quickly.
Tegethoff
Ok I saw enough of the article to conclude that what happened was that Japan originally asked for nothing more than "autonomous Inner Mongolia" (not necessarily a state) and that the Japanese military screwed things up by setting up a North China puppet regime, undercutting the government. So I'd say a Japanese puppet regime in Shanxi would be unacceptable to the Chinese even if that's what the Japanese wanted. I suggested in an earlier post a CHINESE puppet with Japanese military access so that China could give military access to Japan without letting them into all of China--it would be just enough to allow the Japanese to attack the Chinese communists, and it could even be annexed to China once the Communists are gone.
I'll make my own event with perhaps three choices
1) white peace and alliance--60% acceptance
2) Mengjiang puppeted to Japan, Shanxi puppeted to China, Japan has access to Shanxi, both countries DOW Comm China separately 10% Chinese acceptance
3) Mengjiang and Shanxi puppeted to Japan- 0% chance of a Chinese acceptance--this appears to be the Japanese position that the Chinese rejected.
In reality I believe the Japanese killed the chance for peace once they unilaterally created Mengjiang, which is why I'll require the Mengjiang event to happen, but for Japan to choose not to create Mengjiang.
I'll put it in my liberators mod but it will take time because I'm working on other projects and I'd also want to take into consideration changes in the geopolitics. There would be a much higher chance for either of 2 variations from Ribbentrop-Molotov--1) alliance with Britain, SOV access in Poland. or 2) "if you can't beat them join them"--Unholy Alliance. But first I'm sure the USSR would try the CHC-CXB-SIK play first. Japan would be more likely to Strike North rather than Strike South.
MTJ
Will take your ideas about Manchukuo under advisement. I'm also splitting my time to helping out the Fatherland mod so they will apply also (Manchukuo becomes Empire of China) I think part of that population increase actually was due to Korean and Japanese settlement of the area. But Manchukuo was underpopulated so it would have been a magnet for settlement by someone. Manchukuo definitely had better infrastructure than the rest of China.
Ok I saw enough of the article to conclude that what happened was that Japan originally asked for nothing more than "autonomous Inner Mongolia" (not necessarily a state) and that the Japanese military screwed things up by setting up a North China puppet regime, undercutting the government. So I'd say a Japanese puppet regime in Shanxi would be unacceptable to the Chinese even if that's what the Japanese wanted. I suggested in an earlier post a CHINESE puppet with Japanese military access so that China could give military access to Japan without letting them into all of China--it would be just enough to allow the Japanese to attack the Chinese communists, and it could even be annexed to China once the Communists are gone.
I'll make my own event with perhaps three choices
1) white peace and alliance--60% acceptance
2) Mengjiang puppeted to Japan, Shanxi puppeted to China, Japan has access to Shanxi, both countries DOW Comm China separately 10% Chinese acceptance
3) Mengjiang and Shanxi puppeted to Japan- 0% chance of a Chinese acceptance--this appears to be the Japanese position that the Chinese rejected.
In reality I believe the Japanese killed the chance for peace once they unilaterally created Mengjiang, which is why I'll require the Mengjiang event to happen, but for Japan to choose not to create Mengjiang.
I'll put it in my liberators mod but it will take time because I'm working on other projects and I'd also want to take into consideration changes in the geopolitics. There would be a much higher chance for either of 2 variations from Ribbentrop-Molotov--1) alliance with Britain, SOV access in Poland. or 2) "if you can't beat them join them"--Unholy Alliance. But first I'm sure the USSR would try the CHC-CXB-SIK play first. Japan would be more likely to Strike North rather than Strike South.
MTJ
Will take your ideas about Manchukuo under advisement. I'm also splitting my time to helping out the Fatherland mod so they will apply also (Manchukuo becomes Empire of China) I think part of that population increase actually was due to Korean and Japanese settlement of the area. But Manchukuo was underpopulated so it would have been a magnet for settlement by someone. Manchukuo definitely had better infrastructure than the rest of China.
nomonhan said:
There was indeed Japanese settlements, but my understanding is that it only got around to 600,000 people? I am unsure about the figure of the Korean population of Manchuria. But anyway, I am pretty sure they brought some people to Manchuria, as the region pretty much grew from 30 million to 50 million in 15 or so years (then again, this might be consistent with population growth at the time. Im not sure). Its not a secret that there were more collobrationists with the Japanese (some historians argued that Japan had roughly millions of Chinese soldiers on their side, more than Chiang Kai-Shek had :rofl: ).
Manchuria was rather empty in the Imperial era of China (Manchus prohibited it I believe?). But peopel begun to migrate there in masse after the fall of the Empire and during the interwar period, largely because Warlord Xueliang Zhou and later the Japanese... did provide a relatively stable, violence free (ok there was some, but hardly to the extent of the rest of China), and Manchuria/Manchukuo did have one of the strongest economies in all of China. Argubly, I would rather live in Manchukuo than in China, as the latter had daily Chiang vs. Communist and Warlord fights. The Central Plains war alone costed almost a million in lives. It was total anarchy, comparable to contemporary Iraq.... actually... It makes Iraq look like paradise
==========
Regarding Fatherland...
Yes a very interesting mod... I imagine there would be some difficulty in finding Generals for Manchukuo (as the default generals were either Japanese or Russian). I can see Zhang Xueliang being a Field Marshal for Manchukuo (he was rather an anti-Communist and anti-Japanese, but I imagine he would have came back to Manchukuo in this kind of scenario? I can't see him working for South China). Additionally, seeing as Pujie would not be able to have the throne, as Puyi would have had the traditional sucession system (and the fact that Puyi lived historically well till the 70s I believe)... as Puyi and by extension Manchukuo would no longer be a Japanese puppet... meaning the next generation would have had the throne (meaning a younger counsin). So therefore, I guess Pujie (being trained by Japan) -might- have became a General, and seeing as royalty knows best, would have certinally became a high ranking General.
It probably would a rather interesting fight... A heavily industrialized Chinese Empire verus a Southern more populas American armed China.
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nomonhan said:
Yes, I am coming to similar conclusions. I tend to leave Menjiang as a Japanese puppet, though. I am not really sure how to interpret the "demilitarised zones" in Northern China into HOI2 terms. Your ideas about military access may be a good approach.
Maybe the way to go is Shanxi as a Chinese puppet without an army and very low manpower, no Chinese access (is this possible for a puppet?) and Japanese access. Of course in case of war with the Communists they would be run over immediately, but then it is actually for the Japanese to defend Shanxi.
It would be enormously fascinating to model the power struggles within in the Japanese military and government, but probably this is far beyond the event scripting possibilities in HOI2.
I look forward to your events, I´ll take my time writing mine, let´s see.
Best Regards
T.
MTJ
Xueliang was under house arrest so he could not work for anybody from his jail cell. He was a really odd fellow. He was originally far right but went far left (probably opportunistic) once Japan overran Manchuria and Chiang did not put up a fight. It seems he was hoping the USSR would set him up in a way similar to Sheng Shicai (who was also originally from Manchuria) but Stalin was not stupid enough to risk war with both China and Japan so they led him on and then negotiated a deal with Chiang to get a United front and for Xueliang to be arrested by Chiang, putting him out of commission. Sheng Shicai will be a field marshall for Empire of China. IRL nobody trusted him by 1944 and according to one source it was because he wanted to cooperate with the Japanese. Sheng was another political opportunist. I'm sure he'd find a home with Pu Yi.
Xueliang was under house arrest so he could not work for anybody from his jail cell. He was a really odd fellow. He was originally far right but went far left (probably opportunistic) once Japan overran Manchuria and Chiang did not put up a fight. It seems he was hoping the USSR would set him up in a way similar to Sheng Shicai (who was also originally from Manchuria) but Stalin was not stupid enough to risk war with both China and Japan so they led him on and then negotiated a deal with Chiang to get a United front and for Xueliang to be arrested by Chiang, putting him out of commission. Sheng Shicai will be a field marshall for Empire of China. IRL nobody trusted him by 1944 and according to one source it was because he wanted to cooperate with the Japanese. Sheng was another political opportunist. I'm sure he'd find a home with Pu Yi.
hgt said:
If you are not afraid of a bit of Beta testing probably within a week or two.
nomonhan said:
This is why I like WW2 Chinese history
Even if you thought you knew it, you don't :rofl: There ought to be a political science course on Interwar China What your wrote basically covers Xueliang better than I did. Yeah he was under house arrest, basically right till the death of Kai-Shek. Zhoulin was originally a puppet of the Japanese, although then again questionable, as he was not really a puppet nor an ideal one at best. From my understanding, the Japanese thought by killing Zhoulin, that his son would suceed him and become a puppet that could be controlled by the Japanese. Didn't work, Zhang pretty much took any guns and men he could and joined Chiang Kai-Shek against the Japanese. Then you had the X'ian incident :wacko:
I would not say Zhang Xueliang was necessary left-wing, just because he conspriced with Zhou En Lai to kidnap Chiang, but like you said, he was just a political opportunist, whom, when convinced by the Soviets or Zhou, probably agreed to kidnapping Chiang, thinking it would somehow force Chiang to fight the Japanese (and therefore, reclaim Manchuria).
The reality being is, despite any legitmacy anyone held or possessed, China was effectively a warlord state, yes, even Chiang Kai-Shek himself was a Warlord to some degree. I admit, I am not an expert on alternative history China, but would Pu Yi not be viewed as more.... correct? I mean legitimate? Of course this isn't the 1920s or 1910s for that matter... but I imagine that whoever runs Southern-China in the Fatherland mod, would probably hate Pu-Yi dearly, as Pu-Yi would be quite the competition. Of course, this is different from historical Manchukuo, as Manchukuo was actually precieved, by the majority of Chinese, to be a puppet, some even took it further to say it was a "fake puppet".
Regarding Stalin and Zhang... Are you sure Stalin knew about the man? I was always certain that Stalin wanted an United Front, if only pleading to Mao, to not kill Chiang Kai-Shek. Stalin pretty much did this crap again, when he pleaded Mao during the CC3 (Chinese Civil War 3, 1948) to have a North Communist and South Capitalist China. Although, I have to find some evidence for that, because I only heard that from my history Professor and it sounds a bit crazy. Then again, it does sound like Stalin
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Sorry about the quality of the scan- I'll get those first 5 pages again if I'm in the library today...which I probably will beTegetthoff said:
Jstor is open and free to everyone, its not a subscription service- there should be a download link on that page, (near the top, next to print/citation stuff, I think, it might be hard to find if you aren't looking for it though) and you should be able to shift pages on it if you want to read it online.
semihippie said:Sorry about the quality of the scan- I'll get those first 5 pages again if I'm in the library today...which I probably will be
Jstor is open and free to everyone, its not a subscription service- there should be a download link on that page, (near the top, next to print/citation stuff, I think, it might be hard to find if you aren't looking for it though) and you should be able to shift pages on it if you want to read it online.
Sorry, JSTOR is only open to universities and various institutions, not to private researchers. Some papers can be downoaded for a price, this one not. So I really would appreciate a download.
Thanks
T.
I looked into this with my University library and they replied it is not permitted, unfortunately, to share the contents of JSTOR with non-subscribed researchers. Now that you mention it. I am going to see, out of my own curiosity, if there are any Manchuria or Manchukuo articles
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nomonhan said:
I didn't know that Zhang Xueliang had any kind of relationship with Moscow, and thus wanted to become a Soviet puppet. I don't know if there is any English-translated autobiography by Zhang, but surely it was Zhang himself instead of Chiang in Nanjing who ordered the Northeast Army not to fight the Japanese(in his autobiography). He stated that he did not expect the Japanese would eventually create such a serious turmoil like occupying the entire Manchuria. In my opinion, I would think that he still remains his loyalty to Chiang and Nanjing otherwise he could simply execute Chiang himself, continues war against the almost-dead Communists, and emerges to be the new gereralissimo of China. (The red army only consisted about 6000 at the end of Xian incident.) I would say that he was right not fighting the Reds "tactically". But he obviously didn't foresee the consequences of that decision, like the later Civil War, the Great Leap and the Cultural Revolution, etc.
As oppotunists, I believe almost all warlords have proved themselves so. Most of them have been military leaders under the Qing Empire, then under different fractions of the Nationalist Party, even the later Communist Party.
I personally don't agree to make Manchukuo more realistic and stronger, even though in theory it was indeed the center of China's heavy industry. I believe China is strong enough after reunification. 100 something IC and almost no one stands in China's way to a military superpower. I think every China player's foreign policy is expansionism, and wouldn't a totally redesigned and strengthened Manchuria makes China even stronger? I thought of a plan, that is, to create an event that allows Manchukuo to boost its industry and military only if Nationalist China really struggles to fight off Japan. And this would further triggers other events like Operation August Storm and allow the Soviets to transport Manchukuo industry and resources into the Soviet Union, which the Red Army did do historically. Or you can make events for Japan that let them to move Manchukuo industry and resources into Korea and continue the fight against China. Don't make China too easy and strong!
To MTJ:
There was indeed something like an armistice or cease fire between Nationalist China and Communist China that separates China into north of the Yangtze River and south. Both sides met in Beiping, April of 1949. Unfortunately no consensus was met, otherwise we might have North China and South China as it is in Korea...
clanjay1989 said:I didn't know that Zhang Xueliang had any kind of relationship with Moscow, and thus wanted to become a Soviet puppet. I don't know if there is any English-translated autobiography by Zhang, but surely it was Zhang himself instead of Chiang in Nanjing who ordered the Northeast Army not to fight the Japanese(in his autobiography). He stated that he did not expect the Japanese would eventually create such a serious turmoil like occupying the entire Manchuria. In my opinion, I would think that he still remains his loyalty to Chiang and Nanjing otherwise he could simply execute Chiang himself, continues war against the almost-dead Communists, and emerges to be the new gereralissimo of China. (The red army only consisted about 6000 at the end of Xian incident.) I would say that he was right not fighting the Reds "tactically". But he obviously didn't foresee the consequences of that decision, like the later Civil War, the Great Leap and the Cultural Revolution, etc.
As oppotunists, I believe almost all warlords have proved themselves so. Most of them have been military leaders under the Qing Empire, then under different fractions of the Nationalist Party, even the later Communist Party.
I personally don't agree to make Manchukuo more realistic and stronger, even though in theory it was indeed the center of China's heavy industry. I believe China is strong enough after reunification. 100 something IC and almost no one stands in China's way to a military superpower. I think every China player's foreign policy is expansionism, and wouldn't a totally redesigned and strengthened Manchuria makes China even stronger? I thought of a plan, that is, to create an event that allows Manchukuo to boost its industry and military only if Nationalist China really struggles to fight off Japan. And this would further triggers other events like Operation August Storm and allow the Soviets to transport Manchukuo industry and resources into the Soviet Union, which the Red Army did do historically. Or you can make events for Japan that let them to move Manchukuo industry and resources into Korea and continue the fight against China. Don't make China too easy and strong!
To MTJ:
There was indeed something like an armistice or cease fire between Nationalist China and Communist China that separates China into north of the Yangtze River and south. Both sides met in Beiping, April of 1949. Unfortunately no consensus was met, otherwise we might have North China and South China as it is in Korea...
I am afraid of that too... China is already EASY enough, once you actually beat Japan. Beefing up Manchukuo will probably make it more challenging I guess... Anyway
Something would have to be done with Manchukuo industrial capacity and resources... If Nationalist China took over the country.... When the Soviet came, they pretty much took any industrial factory and resource harvesting industries. Anything they wouldn't take, was pretty much destroyed or given to the Communists in China.
I like the idea of Japan basically ransacking Manchukuo if the Nationalists came.. I mean afterall, it was all more or less the result of Japanese investment in the first place (isn't that what Stalin argued too?). Industrial Capaciticity can be destroyed in the game, but can resources? The moving industrial events for CHI never destroy resources (but only adds them).
But hey IC can be moved, so just plant em down in Manchuko I guess.
If reducing resources through events is possible, great... otherwise, Muken should be given metal production of 15 or 17 (being increased from 12... so it can kinda established the fact that its the biggest metal province in all of China) and the remainer of energy-metal-rares being offmap resources.
..........................
Mukden metal production increased to 15
Off-map resources given
Chinese modernization events to include Manchuria (don't they already?)
Industrial capacity added to Manchukuo (Manchukuo should have... starting 30 base... and increases to what? 50? 60? through events lasting till or pass 1945? Basically to cover Japanese investment?)
Your thoughts?
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