Domination of the Draka Mod - initial stages.

[Karagin]

I found out today how to change ministers which only matters for Domination and Empire of Brazil (Dom Pedro III). Apart from that I played some more of my test scenario. An old build but things pop up to remind me to change.

It is the end of 1943 and Allies and Axis are at war. Germany is on the verge of BP and Japan is holding Americans in China while pushing into Siberia. Strange thing is Japan never took Indochina and so Germany takes Vichy over and gets Vietnam, which fell to allies out of India. Also Barbarosa only happened in mid 42 when Germany tok over Vichy and Soviets DoW Germany. Allies have moved north from Gibraltar to take Portugal and Spain. I decided to keep playing till BP went off since on all previous occasions, ok one, Germany and SU were stuck in a stalemate. BP was obviouslly going to happen eventually and then Germany could move reinforcements to France and push back Allies which they have been holding well enough anyway. Well BP fires but then it says

Soviet Union has end of Spanish Civil war - a learning experience.

what

Not only did that civil war finish 6 years ago but Spain doesn't exist anymore.

Interesting...seems that some paper work finally found it's way to right hands 6 years late...LOL! :rofl:

 

[Konig15]

That is IMHO a terrible idea. In this mod the USSR is weaker than normal and between 2 strong enemies, the Nazis and Draka. If anything the USSR should have less dissent if not purging.(making it more playable rather than less)

Then make the dissent hits AI only. That should remove a lot of the problems.

 

[Faeelin]

That is IMHO a terrible idea. In this mod the USSR is weaker than normal and between 2 strong enemies, the Nazis and Draka. If anything the USSR should have less dissent if not purging.(making it more playable rather than less)

If the point is to set it up for the books, where Russia falls like a house of cards, then it makes sense.

 

[Randallw]

I believe in the books Japan also invaded Russia, which is what happened in my test. Russia feel quite quickly, took about a year. Also I hadn't transferred Kazhakstan which might weaken SU a bit. A point is that Sverdlovsk, which is one of the BP provinces will be extremely close to the Drakan Border so I might remove it. Baku also lies on the border so it might also be too vulnerable. But the book has a scene in Kars, which just happens to be a province , which the Draka build up and invade from, so Germany has taken that area. I thnik I will just remove Sverdlovsk. I may also weaken SU a bit by reducing factories in major provinces by 1 or so to represent the added destruction from the second civil war.

I can see where you are confused. When BP went off it fired normally, SU offers surrender, Germany accepts, Germany has handover of provinces etc, but then at the same time it said SCW had ended. That's the odd bit. I noticed Japan grabbed far east which is good. My understanding is after their BP Russia was reduced to a Siberian state under Timoshenko. I can find the Siberia provinces in revolt.txt but it looks like much less than Russia gets in BP. May change it to reduce Russia more. Germany needs more IC to get on par with Domination and I haven't added upgrades to Domination territory yet, which I may have to do as US gets 700IC when at war . One thing that works I think is that SU never recieved Lend Lease because Domination owns Persia, which is what happened in book.

 

[earl of bronze]

If the point is to set it up for the books, where Russia falls like a house of cards, then it makes sense.

But it's not, it's to set up the situation in 1936. Not to program the Stirling alien mind worms making everybody except the Draka morons. That's why Randallw isn't giving the Draka Italy for free like Stirling did.

 

[earl of bronze]

I believe in the books Japan also invaded Russia, which is what happened in my test. Russia feel quite quickly, took about a year. Also I hadn't transferred Kazhakstan which might weaken SU a bit. A point is that Sverdlovsk, which is one of the BP provinces will be extremely close to the Drakan Border so I might remove it. Baku also lies on the border so it might also be too vulnerable. But the book has a scene in Kars, which just happens to be a province , which the Draka build up and invade from, so Germany has taken that area. I thnik I will just remove Sverdlovsk. I may also weaken SU a bit by reducing factories in major provinces by 1 or so to represent the added destruction from the second civil war.

I can see where you are confused. When BP went off it fired normally, SU offers surrender, Germany accepts, Germany has handover of provinces etc, but then at the same time it said SCW had ended. That's the odd bit. I noticed Japan grabbed far east which is good. My understanding is after their BP Russia was reduced to a Siberian state under Timoshenko. I can find the Siberia provinces in revolt.txt but it looks like much less than Russia gets in BP. May change it to reduce Russia more. Germany needs more IC to get on par with Domination and I haven't added upgrades to Domination territory yet, which I may have to do as US gets 700IC when at war . One thing that works I think is that SU never recieved Lend Lease because Domination owns Persia, which is what happened in book.

IIRC the Japanese didn't invade Russia. AAMOF both Japan and the USSR had border battles with the Draka and by any rational standard should have been at least secret allies vs the Draka. Of course Stirling is anything but rational. Don't reduce the USSR's IC, they weren't strategic bomber during the civil war and they already have lost oil. If you do anything to weaken them beside the provinces you will make them unplayable.

Oh and the US outproduced the Draka and Axis combined they just wimped out because Stirling is an idiot. The US should have far more IC than the snakes.

 

[unmerged(59851)]

I think that with both the Draka and the Nazis on their border, the Reds only need a little weakening to make them fall.

 

[Randallw]

The alliance, not merely US, out produced the Domination and Europe combined. That said I just had a thought. Germany and Domination may be about equal but by the stage the alliance outproduced Axis and Domination the Axis owned all of Europe willingly so perhaps it works out. I thought having the US with twice as much IC as Domination was ok but there is a part where someone tells Dreiser the US has slightly more IC while Domination has more resources, and by the way that's something I need to edit. In the test the Draka had a deficit in energy and rares because they had so many units and factories.

In the books the Soviets were a walkover because they had to guard their borders with the Domination and Japan but in the game the SU all but ignores the Domination border. Granted though they still lost.

 

[earl of bronze]

The alliance, not merely US, out produced the Domination and Europe combined. That said I just had a thought. Germany and Domination may be about equal but by the stage the alliance outproduced Axis and Domination the Axis owned all of Europe willingly so perhaps it works out. I thought having the US with twice as much IC as Domination was ok but there is a part where someone tells Dreiser the US has slightly more IC while Domination has more resources, and by the way that's something I need to edit. In the test the Draka had a deficit in energy and rares because they had so many units and factories.

In the books the Soviets were a walkover because they had to guard their borders with the Domination and Japan but in the game the SU all but ignores the Domination border. Granted though they still lost.

The shortage is because Stirlings numbers rarely add up. If the Draka run out of resources well that seems realistic. Afterall the Axis will have less resources.

The Soviets did last about 6-7 months and hurt the Germans pretty badly. I wouldn't call that a walkover. Stirling likes to wank things for his winning side but doesn't seem to think things through very well.

 

[Randallw]

It could be said they develop their possesions a bit more. They do find diamonds earlier but that would already happen by ww2.

Let me add that I'm never really sure what Stirlings writing will be like. I enjoyed the Islands in the Sea of Time series but am repulsed by the counterpart series. I never had an interest but in all fairness I leafed through one of them when it mentions the empire, or so, of Tasmania (I'm Tasmanian). I put it back in disgust when it mentioned the Primeminister of Tasmania was the eco nut politician I dislike the most. What with the Wican stuff I hear of I am confused since in the Islands series a hippy gets her comeuppance when she thinks she can go live with the gentle natives. Anyone who's read it knows what happens.

 

[Chaos128]

hey Randallw, its great to see this mod moving along, it looks increasingly interesting everytime i read this thread! It might be enough for me to actually pick up a copy of Sterlings book! Thanks.

 

[Karagin]

Okay guys, Stirling writes well enough, I am getting tired of hearing all the bashing of the Draka books. They are no worse then beat to death WW2 stuff Turrltedove has done...aliens, fanasty and alterantive versions...

The Draka stuff is no worse thought out then all of the SW stuff or the Star Trek stuff. Yes the books have errors, yes things don't make a lot of sense, BUT none of it took away from the story and if anything the points you didn't like caused you actually go look up what really happen, so in the long run you learned something. I call that a win win situation.

The facts are what the novels give us, so if a mod is being done then it follows the given facts. The Draka are industrilized, they have large army and airforce and small navy. They don't like other nations and have a twisted idology. That's what go into the mod.

Somethings will be made up by Randallw to work for the game and to fill in things, but they won't hurt or help things if the Draka are modeled of the novels as close as can be done. That means all the errors and all the super toys.

Oh and one last comment if you guys who are complaining about his books didn't like them then why does the mod intrest you?

 

[earl of bronze]

1 Okay guys, Stirling writes well enough, I am getting tired of hearing all the bashing of the Draka books. They are no worse then beat to death WW2 stuff Turrltedove has done...aliens, fanasty and alterantive versions...

2 The Draka stuff is no worse thought out then all of the SW stuff or the Star Trek stuff. Yes the books have errors, yes things don't make a lot of sense, BUT none of it took away from the story and if anything the points you didn't like caused you actually go look up what really happen, so in the long run you learned something. I call that a win win situation.

3 The facts are what the novels give us, so if a mod is being done then it follows the given facts. The Draka are industrilized, they have large army and airforce and small navy. They don't like other nations and have a twisted idology. That's what go into the mod.

4 Somethings will be made up by Randallw to work for the game and to fill in things, but they won't hurt or help things if the Draka are modeled of the novels as close as can be done. That means all the errors and all the super toys.

5 Oh and one last comment if you guys who are complaining about his books didn't like them then why does the mod intrest you?

1 Tough, I will continue to bash Stirling as much as I want.

2 I couldn't disagree more, Stirling's is the worst AH I've ever seen.

3 That's fine.

4 The bs that makes the Draka timeline go has to stop somewhere. Hell a few months back I found a thread with a SAC guy in a debate with Stirling who proved that his Draka CAS was too heavy to actually fly. Stirling then claimed that the secondary armament was an editing error! :rofl: The editor added cannons to the plane sure he did.

5 To kill the damn snakes as multiple posters have already said.

 

[earl of bronze]

It could be said they develop their possesions a bit more. They do find diamonds earlier but that would already happen by ww2.

Let me add that I'm never really sure what Stirlings writing will be like. I enjoyed the Islands in the Sea of Time series but am repulsed by the counterpart series. I never had an interest but in all fairness I leafed through one of them when it mentions the empire, or so, of Tasmania (I'm Tasmanian). I put it back in disgust when it mentioned the Primeminister of Tasmania was the eco nut politician I dislike the most. What with the Wican stuff I hear of I am confused since in the Islands series a hippy gets her comeuppance when she thinks she can go live with the gentle natives. Anyone who's read it knows what happens.

They shouldn't get more resources that aren't there in the real world. The Axis normally has deficits and lives off of stockpiles. I don't see why the world's largest country needs coal and rubber to magically appear.

If anything things should change in response to the Draka. For instance the Soviet officer purge which crippled their army. If you refuse the purge the Soviet GDE should go back to full(which the Ai gets anyway). It doesn't do so in the main game for game balance issues but here IMO you should do just that. There will not be a game balance issue with the USSR in this mod and a player would need to strike first to avoid getting hit from both sides.

 

[Karagin]

1 Tough, I will continue to bash Stirling as much as I want.

2 I couldn't disagree more, Stirling's is the worst AH I've ever seen.

3 That's fine.

4 The bs that makes the Draka timeline go has to stop somewhere. Hell a few months back I found a thread with a SAC guy in a debate with Stirling who proved that his Draka CAS was too heavy to actually fly. Stirling then claimed that the secondary armament was an editing error! :rofl: The editor added cannons to the plane sure he did.

5 To kill the damn snakes as multiple posters have already said.

If you hate it that much then why even read any of the books after the first one?

And can you do better? Again the books were no worse then any of the other alternate history series out there all of them have their break point that cause them to have issues, prime example the Turtledove TWO GEORGES with Nixon being a used car salesman the list goes on with other alternate histories novels...bashing Stirling isn't going to change anything.

And yes the mod should follow the novels since those are the bases what each nation has or doesn't have.

And yes editors do tell writers to add things if they feel they are lacking or don't sound completly right. Perfect example of that is John Campbell who told his writers that no matter the bad guys and the aliens don't get to win.

So let's let the mod get finished then point out the issues with the novels...and it's getting old hearing about how bad the books are, they weren't bad enough not to make you not finish them and not that bad enough for you to go and find sites that talk about them.

 

[unmerged(59851)]

Seriously, the books weren't that bad; and besides, they aren't supposed to be history books. Randallw can follow the books, unless it doesn't make sense. He can make whatever changes he wants to, you know, artistic liscense and all. He is the one making the mod, after all.

 

[earl of bronze]

1 If you hate it that much then why even read any of the books after the first one?

2 And can you do better? Again the books were no worse then any of the other alternate history series out there all of them have their break point that cause them to have issues, prime example the Turtledove TWO GEORGES with Nixon being a used car salesman the list goes on with other alternate histories novels...bashing Stirling isn't going to change anything.

And yes the mod should follow the novels since those are the bases what each nation has or doesn't have.

3 And yes editors do tell writers to add things if they feel they are lacking or don't sound completly right. Perfect example of that is John Campbell who told his writers that no matter the bad guys and the aliens don't get to win.

4 So let's let the mod get finished then point out the issues with the novels...and it's getting old hearing about how bad the books are, they weren't bad enough not to make you not finish them and not that bad enough for you to go and find sites that talk about them.

1 I didn't, I flipped to the end and checked if the Draka lost then put the book back.

2 Strawman alert, I don't have to be a writer to criticize a book. That everyon ignores the Draka until it's too late is just insane. For instance the US would want revenge after the Civil war and could get it unless the British prevent it. And if they do the US won't be on the Allied side in WWI. Past events affect future ones.

3 Yeah right an editor is going to tell a writer to add cannons to a plane. Saying the bad guys have to lose is different, that's tell the ending not every one of the steps to get there. I would like to hear the editor's side of the story. It's like a kid saying the dog ate his homework for the 5th time this week!

4 Tough again, I will continue to argue against givng the Draka any bs past 1936. Get used to because there is nothing you can do to stop me.

 

[earl of bronze]

Seriously, the books weren't that bad; and besides, they aren't supposed to be history books. Randallw can follow the books, unless it doesn't make sense. He can make whatever changes he wants to, you know, artistic liscense and all. He is the one making the mod, after all.

That's your opinion, I don't happen to share it. I am making reasonable suggestions and arguments. The way Stirling wrote it the Germans would have been toast long before they could rally Europe to raise new divisions. IRL they started Barbarossa with about 3 million men. In MTG they suffer heavily fighting the USSR and the Draka inflict 2.5 million more losses before outrunning their supply lines. At that point the Germans were fighting with what exactly? It just doesn't add up.

Karagin is trying to get me to shut up. To hell with that. He's no moderator and cannot tell me what to do.

 

[Karagin]

Karagin is trying to get me to shut up. To hell with that. He's no moderator and cannot tell me what to do.

I am not telling you to shut up, I am asking that we work on the mod with ideas and lay off bashing the books as much as being done. They are what we have to go off to make this mod.

Please stop reading more into this, it's clear you don't like Stirling's writing or his style, great roger got it, but it doesn't need to be brought up all the time. Let's just work on helping get the mod done then debat the books.

 

[earl of bronze]

I am not telling you to shut up, I am asking that we work on the mod with ideas and lay off bashing the books as much as being done. They are what we have to go off to make this mod.

Please stop reading more into this, it's clear you don't like Stirling's writing or his style, great roger got it, but it doesn't need to be brought up all the time. Let's just work on helping get the mod done then debat the books.

The point is that the books are so inconsistent that doing all of the Draka super weapons as you wanted won't work. In MTG they are portrayed as virtual supermen with advanced tanks, advanced planes(some of which are too heavy to actually fly) superior numbers and they get to launch a sneak attack. In the initial thrust they take out over 83% (2.5 million of the 3 million who invaded Russia) of the Germans in the east and yet they take about 2 more years and multiple a bombs to conquer Europe.

With the casualties from conquering the USSR(implied to be heavy) there is nothing to stop the Draka from just driving to the English Channel after that. The Europeans can't raise and equip millions of new troops so quickly.In short it requires black magic for the Draka wank and more black magic for the Europeans to hold out 2 more years.

IMO it would be much better to aim for a situation where AI Draka vs AI Axis would result in the Draka winning in 2.5-3 years. That is go for the result instead of the descriptions of how they got there since it makes no sense.