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Sheriff Godwin Law

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Okay, I've been a pretty thorough follower of Utopia news and by doing so I have managed to find answers to the majority of my questions about the upcoming expansion.

Cybernetics will be applicable to other races, not just your core race. Awesome.

Food surplus is applied evenly across growing populations, not planets. Excellent.

Most ethos combinations should remain viable, but not equally compatible. Fair.

No immediate plans to add Fish Portraits. Disappointing but you can't have everything.

The one that doesn't seem to have been touched on yet. The Domestic Servitude slavery policy gives you slaves that perform averagely as farmers, poorly as everything else, but add happiness. Is there a cap on that happiness bonus?
 
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Promethian

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The exact mechanics of how domestic servants affect happiness is something I would really like to know. My first game come Utopia is going to be authoritarian but not materialist. Part of my plan (if possible) is to set robots as domestic servants and build one or two on my energy and science specialized planets.
 

Sheriff Godwin Law

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I don't see why it would, the bonus from multiple charismatic pops and the Xenophile bonus have no cap.

Honestly, because the only way to make Domestic Servitude really pay off as an investment is to give it a significant happiness boost. If we assume the bare minimum of 1% per domestic, then gene mod that race to be charismatic because it's what they're for so might as well. It would still be 2% happiness for tile dedicated to that purpose. 2 happiness translates to a .8% increase in every other tile. You'd have to be running over a 100 tiles for that individual bonus to be worth more to you than just another mine, or another lab.

But Domestic Servants don't just add happiness. That tile is also producing, lets say we dropped it on a +2 food tile, 10 food, it's helping combat unrest, and adding xenophobic population attraction which is probably a positive for you if you're running Domestic Servants.

I suggest those positives don't counter act the drawbacks AND don't justify the micromanagement labor and influence cost it's going to take to plant a slave race of domestic servants on your planet. Even if you have to farm anyway, by opting to use Domestic Servants instead of Chattel Slaves, you are giving up a 20% efficiency bonus to their output. Spaced out over enough slaves to feed your empire, that is a huge food loss or a large number of tile wastes.

So, I jump ahead in the numbers tweaking process and conclude it won't be a bare minimum 1% bonus. It'll be higher than that, how high do you need to make it for it to be significant? Well, pulling a number out of the air, a 5% happiness bonus would translate to an overall increase of production on the other tiles of 2% That gives you a break even point at 50 tiles, any planet with less than 50 tiles suffers a loss of efficiency at 5% happiness. If you add Charismatic to that for 6% happiness bonus it becomes 2.4% overall increase for the other tiles and that gets you a break even point at 42 Tiles.

Now you're obviously crunching the numbers in your head and you've determined that even 5% happiness is a hard sell for being worthwhile on just the strength of resource collection. First no planet has 42 tiles much less 50 so on the numbers alone this falls behind. It gets worse when you compare it to the agrarian world strategy of dedicating a single world to mass producing food. Creating an agrarian world doesn't require the micromanagement of population transferring, it comes with the flat influence cost of colonizing, it produces more food overall which means it clears up more tiles for important jobs. And on those planets with their food tiles freed up, you also get a greater advantage for bonuses to whatever specialty they do happen to have. Even at 5% happiness, this is not an optimum strategy.

Here's why I'm still saying 5% happiness. At 5% happiness, 6% after a gene modification project, you have the effect of a Monument of Purity just by conquering an alien race, transporting two slaves to your planet, and placing them on 2 farms. This will affect unrest, this will make your planet more stable, if you allow free migration this may convince your people to stay home. This may even refund you the cost of building a Monument of Purity which starts to look like a wasted tile. 5% won't be optimal, but in extreme numbers it may render certain problems insignificant.

So I guess I'm asking if there's a cap because I'm assuming they're going to make the happiness bonus significant from a resource standpoint, and so believe that they'll have to institute a cap to prevent it from being game altering in other ways.

The exact mechanics of how domestic servants affect happiness is something I would really like to know. My first game come Utopia is going to be authoritarian but not materialist. Part of my plan (if possible) is to set robots as domestic servants and build one or two on my energy and science specialized planets.

Currently you can't enslave Robots or Droids, only Synthetics, and I don't see anything about the upcoming expansion that will change that.
 
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Promethian

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Except for the new set rights per species mechanic coming. If robots and/or droids appear on it then domestic servant is a possibility. Also we can set droids as the pop on a colony ship currently. If they are functional enough to establish a colony then droids are functional enough for domestic servitude.
 

Sheriff Godwin Law

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Except for the new set rights per species mechanic coming. If robots and/or droids appear on it then domestic servant is a possibility. Also we can set droids as the pop on a colony ship currently. If they are functional enough to establish a colony then droids are functional enough for domestic servitude.

Huh, good point. I still think it'll probably interfere too much with the systems they have in place that allow robots to be disassembled without a special purge, and the AI Outlaw mechanics. But on the flip side, defaulting robots and droids to slavery just so you can select different bonuses would be a good way to allow people to simulate different kinds of robots, so I sorta hope I'm wrong now. Good luck to you!
 

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I don't see why it would, the bonus from multiple charismatic pops and the Xenophile bonus have no cap.
Overall pop bonuses are not the way to go. We learned that the hard way with Xenophile and Charismatic in 1.0 through 1.4
Domestic Servitude says it "makes pops on the planet happier". But it could as well work by increasing authoritarian Faction atraction (even more) and making that Faction happi(er).

We have to see if it will even be based on number of pops in domestic servitude. Or if it is a flat bonus for having any number of pops use it.
 

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Then becomes useless to Xenophobes, and since they're transitioning more towards encouraging Authoritarians to use a caste system. It seems unlikely.
Having any domestics slaves could make both Factions happi(er) and more atractive. We do not reall know how that will work.

Overall Domestic Servitude seems rather pointless, except maybe with a Decadent Species/Culture.
 

Sheriff Godwin Law

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Having any domestics slaves could make both Factions happi(er) and more atractive. We do not reall know how that will work.

Having any alien slaves on world makes xenophobia more attractive already. I guess they might add more to that, but then the description of Domestic Servitude becomes rather oblique to its purpose.

Overall Domestic Servitude seems rather pointless, except maybe with a Decadent Species/Culture.

The extent to which it has a point will be determined by the amount of happiness granted, and if there is a cap where it might be. Thus the thread.
 

Ikael

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Make it granular yet powerful, and implement a maximum cap. Say, making each servant pop add a +5% planetary happiness, up to a maximum of +25%. This way, you cannot abuse the system but it will give you a big enough of a boost in order to make it worth it in your bigger, more popullated planets.
 

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Make it granular yet powerful, and implement a maximum cap. Say, making each servant pop add a +5% planetary happiness, up to a maximum of +25%. This way, you cannot abuse the system but it will give you a big enough of a boost in order to make it worth it in your bigger, more popullated planets.
I would expect a lower but uncapped bonus to happiness.

I mean, if I can stack a +2% happiness bonus infinitely, how do I benefit if I enslave fifteen Pops so that five Pops will get +30% happiness?
 

Sheriff Godwin Law

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I would expect a lower but uncapped bonus to happiness.

I mean, if I can stack a +2% happiness bonus infinitely, how do I benefit if I enslave fifteen Pops so that five Pops will get +30% happiness?

30% happiness would give a bonus of 12% to the 5 of your population who were free. Those 15 of your population enslaved as domestics would receive penalties to every profession except farming. At the two extremes you'll either end up with a world that has 15 farmers and 5 scientists with a bonus moderately more powerful than simply being intelligent. Or you'll end up with a world that has 3 farmers, 5 moderately more productive xenophobe scientists, and 12 domestics taking penalties on other jobs, we'll make them scientists too because then we can put a scout ship in orbit and give them a science governor to counter act their penalties. Hey, maybe they'll break even!

Or you ignore domestic servitude, have three chattel slaves feeding your population off world, and use that 20% food bonus that chattel slaves get, plus the 15% bonus they get for having an agrarian governor, to help them feed 20 free scientists on this planet. 20 free scientists are almost certain to pull ahead of 5 free scientists with a 12% bonus and 12 enslaved scientists with a minor penalty.

2% would not be enough to justify using them en masse and probably wouldn't be enough to justify using them even as essential farmers particularly now that there's galactic wide food.
 
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The extent to which it has a point will be determined by the amount of happiness granted, and if there is a cap where it might be. Thus the thread.
The thing is taht a bonus to pop-happiness does not have nearly the same effect in 1.5 meta as it had in 1.4 and earlier meta.
In 1.4 low pop Happiness would result in Faction activity. In 1.5, Faction assocition instead affects pop happiness. Pop happiness is not nearly as relevant anymore. As such a +10% pop happiness would propably ahve low effect (unless there is a faction that tracks average happiness or something).

The two effects it still has are:
Unrest supression and production bonuses.

Unrest supression is kinda of wierd. After all, if you got slaves you propably want them to be productive in Mines, Farms or the military. Rather then them being "just content" enough to not rebel.
It could be a way to keep Alien slaves as Xenophobe happy enough. They lack the Authoritarian Unrest supression and ahve extra penalties from Xenophobia. Kind of a a form of "Regulated Salvery". Even if the conquered people turn Xenophobe (and thus hates your rule), they are still docile enough. Without getting Authoritarian Atraction from many armies.

The other part is production bonuses. Now obviously direct bonuses are out of the question: They produce normal Food, less everything else. The full happiness bonus is +20%, so they will be inferior in Food and Mineral production to normal slaves. Unless we talk about really happy slaves (and then you do not need slaves).
However they do have an effect on Science, Powerplant and Unity workers on the same planet. You could use them to buff powerplant and science output indirectly.
 

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I guess one solution would be to give domestic servants a bonus to happiness production or ethic attraction on utility buildings, instead of a half-assed bonus for food. Their own happiness bonus would then complement the tile's.
 

Sheriff Godwin Law

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It could be a way to keep Alien slaves as Xenophobe happy enough. They lack the Authoritarian Unrest supression and ahve extra penalties from Xenophobia. Kind of a a form of "Regulated Salvery". Even if the conquered people turn Xenophobe (and thus hates your rule), they are still docile enough. Without getting Authoritarian Atraction from many armies.

Domestic happiness bonus only applies to free populations. So while it may have an overall unrest bonus, if unrest is overall calculated by an average of happiness, it certainly won't make the slaves happier. Also, slave productivity is immune to happiness bonuses.

However they do have an effect on Science, Powerplant and Unity workers on the same planet. You could use them to buff powerplant and science output indirectly.

Yeah, again I've crunched the numbers. Individually they'd have to each give a 10.4167% happiness bonus to 24 populations to even break even over the output of a worker. And 10% each already feels too high to me when compared to certain buildings and other sources of happiness.

From a pure production stand point, any realistic happiness bonus is never going to give enough of a bonus to actually compete with simply using that tile to produce energy, minerals, or science and feeding your population by using a lesser number of chattel slaves on a specialized world. Which I'm fine with, wouldn't expect otherwise so long as the other benefits from the happiness bonus are useful. But I need to have an idea of what those other benefits are and how much of a gap there is between using domestics or chattel.
 

The Founder

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Domestic happiness bonus only applies to free populations. So while it may have an overall unrest bonus, if unrest is overall calculated by an average of happiness, it certainly won't make the slaves happier. Also, slave productivity is immune to happiness bonuses.
But it does not need to affect anyone but the free population.
If you are Xenophobe, the aliens in your Empire become Xenophobe (likely at least).
If they are Xenophobe, they join a species locked Xenophobe faction. You can guess that faction will be unhappy.
If they join the Faction, thier base Happiness is low.
If thier base happiness is low, they add unrest. In addition to the unrest the Slaves already produce*

25 pops at 20% happiness are a lot harder to supress then 5 slaves at 20% and 20 content enough to not add unrest.


*Note that slaves are barred from Factions as far as we can see. They have 50% minus slavery penalty, whatever that is for Domestic Servitude.
 

Sheriff Godwin Law

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25 pops at 20% happiness are a lot harder to supress then 5 slaves at 20% and 20 content enough to not add unrest.

Okay... interesting thought. The Xenophobe faction I've seen does want to restrict aliens from having full citizenship and wants to restrict aliens from having access to core worlds, but that doesn't bar aliens from serving in sectors and it doesn't prevent aliens from having limited citizenship. Doable while maintaining good relations with your own race's xenophobe faction and it opens up a host of aliens to do research and energy.

Your numbers though require between a 4% and 6% happiness bonus depending on whether we're shooting for a total of 20 or 30 happiness from those populations.