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El Señor Oscuro de los Foros
Oct 14, 2002
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Sweden can be sure I'm a friend until the end, the Hamburgo's transfer will be remebered for long time.

England should take a more active rol here, I don't want to suffer constant wars because of english innactivity, if England continues, I will leave the protty alliance to join Poland.

anyhow, a war against Poland is a war against me.

Spain has my support in crusades against Oe. My wars against France doesn't mean I will continue with this tendence, I'm not planning to reach Spain, I'm planning to free Spain. In any case, France could vassalize me either, and that means I would be helping France in its campaigns (loyally), if you want me to fall you can keep trying, if i fall, I will surely help Napoleon, i prefer to have a master than having 4 powerful enemies around. so, think in balance. Maybe you think I'm uber considering i stopped french expansion with a crt behind, but of course, thx to my very good leaders and foreign money. I did have problems during this war, I was close to surrender when Venice and Oe joined France and Spain and took Austria during 2 years.
 

unmerged(11287)

El Señor Oscuro de los Foros
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Economic Policies:

Meck is now closed to everyone except Poland and Prussia. I'm negociating the posibility of doing the same in Danzig. This is an asnwer to liberals' greed and unfair trade.

By doing this I will increase incomes in 10 coins, and Poland will have additional incomes as well. Crusader, let me know if this suits you, my TA with you can be mantained for a long term. get better my loyal neighbour. Prussia is with you.
 

HolisticGod

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All,

I'm very sorry. My connection is in bad shape. I'm having someone out to look at it on Thursday.

Looks like I took a beating for it anyway, though. :D
 

King John

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DSYoungEsq said:
I have to admit that I can't understand the very large Morocco left alive in Spain's soft underbelly. ;)

If you or anyone has any interest in annexing Morocco, be my guest :p .

I offer a 4kD bounty for anyone who does. A 1kD bounty for anyone that annexes Tunisia, Algiers or Tripoli.

And 2kD for every Asian minor annexed.

All this with the understanding that they aren't to be released, of course ;) .
 

unmerged(17563)

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Pibe thats absurd, not that your COTs are worth shit anyway, if you want to piss of your naval protection go for it, in return you shall have French and Spanish troops landing all over your unprotected flanks. Remember Napoleon lost because he lost on the seas, same with Hitler, heed the lessen and don't alienate your two allies. :(
 

King John

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Sure :) . Maybe I'll try to deliver spam gifts only around Christmas from now on :p .

Only nice countries that annex minors get gifts though remember.
 

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I'm not sure how much I want to vent about the new added tech costs to the tech paradym. I mean, I already had it out with Slargo's on this, and further more it disgust's me that they feel they need to hit us with this.

This session, I spent over half that session trying to raise stab, I took a political crisis, had a decentralization event hit, which I lost 5 stab, took several more stab hits, more then a dozen stab hits during that session. With all this, I was trying to get to infra 6, which took an additional 10 year's to do. Considering that before the patch came in, I was only 2 year's away from infra 6, now 10, was more then annoying.

The sheer added tech cost's to get to higher tech's has now gone overboard. Especially for nation's who are not in the latin tech group, it is getting simply out of hand. It was over 20k to research infra 6 before the patch, the patch raised it to over 50k. What kind of crazy increase is this?

Because of this, I ended up falling way behind in land tech. In fact I was 2 CRT's below France and Prussia during the massive continental war we had. Is it me or does this in fact hurt nation's who are not part of the latin tech group more? Look at the nation's who aren't even in the latin tech group. Both Poland and Russia are way behind as well, like the Ottoman Empire. And the Ottoman Empire at least has the income to try to compete yet I was still lagging. France and Prussia are what land 35? OE land 24 (2 CRT's behind) Poland is land 24 or 25 as well (same story as the OE) and Russia 18 land tech. ( who is in danger of becoming utterly irrelevent now)

I think Johan need's to seriously reconsider why he come's out with these patch's. These patch's are seriously unbalancing. He shouldn't be tampering with the tech paradym. Especially since there are player nation's that exist on different level's of the playing field.

I simply do not understand why EU need's to be more difficult to play when in the end, making the game easier to play should be the most important aspect. Trying to add depth and realism and more complexity to the game is only going to hurt the community as a whole. EU as a game is not built with this in mind. It's a simple game with simple game mechanic's. Yet forcing player's to consider seriously how much time and investment they need to do for their nation's is becoming more of a pain now. The saying "Keep It Simple Stupid." short for KISS comes to mind. When your creating game's for online play. A game should alway's focus on stream lining play and keeping everything simple so player's can focus on what they really want. To play the game.

Why force player's to endlessly hypertech by adding to the tech cost's? If you want to force player's to interact, making tech cost's more expensive is not the solution. Trust me when I say this, it will force player's to hypertech more. You are going to have player's who will damn well know that they need to hit certain mile stone's before they think about doing anything. Infra 5 and trade 4 being the most important early one's. Your only going to force player's to hypertech to get there more now with these new change's. Not lesson it.

I've been with this game for a very long time. My registered date of joining is way back in 2001. I've seen alot of change's and more importantly I've watched how this game evolved.

This game was all about the community, about player's feedback and about how the community changed the game we played. If any of you played Europa Universalis the first version. You would understand this. The 2 key people I consider to be the most influencial player's back then was Doomdark and Havard. Doom who scripted many of the event's that we have now in EU 2, and Havard for going to the community and getting them into the game.

Further more, in EU1, you could never change your selected nation's. They were set. They were I think only 7 nation's you could pick from. There was no Empire of Russia event back then. Much of the game was barebone's, but we all loved it. Then Doom, Havard and several other player's came out with idea's on how to improve the game. One was the IGC. A scenario that actually allowed you to change nation's during the set up. You would have to load it up and then select with 7 nation's you want to see when you load up EU. Then start EU up.

Then Havard started getting feedback for event's. More event's for EU. Since back then it really was bareboned. So the whole community chipped in and event's for many nation's started being fleshed out. When you open EU2's DP folder and look at the event's. Look at the author's of those event's. Those event's all orginated from the time of EU1.

EU2 was all the work done on EU1 but streamlined into an easy to use system. Everything that you see in EU2, was in EU1 but with alot of develpment from the community as a whole.

I believe that the current era of EU you now have a vastly different playerbase. EU1, the playerbase was smaller and in my opinion alot of respectful to the community as a whole. What you have now is a playerbase more separated by who has been here the longest, who has the ear of Johan and who can say I am more active on the board's. Yet if you look at my post count, I'm no where close to many of the poster's here, yet I have been here longer then 99% of the player's here.

I've seen how our community has changed, and more importantly how many player's have separated themselve's from the rest and are now calling themselve's the Elite and the oldtimer's of the this game. There is a definete change in this direction and having these same player's then decide that they know what is good for this game and lobbying Johan to make these change's. It's a far cry to how our community was back in the EU1 heyday.

Am I against having new patch's? No, but I would much perfer to limit the patch's to gameplay issue's and less on adding new content. I think if Paradox is serious about adding new content. They should bring out EU3 then, because EU2, was an evolution of EU1 from all the work done there. Let us have our game and stop monkeying with it. Bring out EU3 to the public so all the change's you want to see in EU2 can then be displayed in a game engine worth it. EU2's engine is old and for some of us, we'd like to keep it like we remembered it.

Duma
 

DSYoungEsq

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My only reply is to suggest that, before there is a wailing and gnashing of teeth, someone should crunch some serious numbers to find out if it really makes sense to try to run up the economic tech scale as far as possible, or if it is cheaper in the long run to delay starting in on a given tech until later in the game, using the intervening time to run up the military techs instead (or, novel thought, don't put all your eggs into one basket at a time). We know the basic formula for determining AoTP, and someone must know the relative values of the various tech levels (I know them up to about level 15). A couple hours with a spreadsheet and voila! we will know the best approach. I'm willing to bet that it isn't trying to reach level 6 Infra ASAP.
 

DSYoungEsq

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HolisticGod said:
All,

I'm very sorry. My connection is in bad shape. I'm having someone out to look at it on Thursday.

Looks like I took a beating for it anyway, though. :D
Only if you consider someone stomping on you, jumping up and down on the body, then dragging it around and hoisting it over the gate for all to see a beating. :D

But don't worry, England didn't exactly profit from the exercise. And I just loved the DoW from Venice right as the war wrapped up its French theater of operations. :rofl:

Frank and I, we just had a blast I bet watching it all... :p
 

Sakaras

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I agree with Duma 100% the tech issue is out of hand when the game started everyone stayed away from Muslim and Orthadox techs finaly years down the road they revamped the techs makeing it easier to keep pace. Granted Western Europe was ahead of the game but I am full cent and over half Inovateive and its costing me 44k to get to Inf 6 its overboard I tell you. Who thought this act up western Europe while ahead never pulled that far ahead of most of eastern Europe. by the time i hit level 30 land france and BB and the rest of latin tech groups will bein the uper 40s if not mid 50's. this brings about a serious problem for balance how can nation that are ment to be player nations keep pace with other players.


Recomend tech change to get Russia Poland OE back in this so we can at least have some roll in the next 100 years or else I may as well sit back and let nappy walk over us. its enought that eveyone 2 to 3 crt beyond us.
 

unmerged(3158)

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DS

Those change's to the tech paradym have almost increased tech cost's by nearly 100%. We aren't talking about small 10 or 20 percent change's here. We are talking about tech level's now needed double what they cost previously and if you noticed what John and me were talking about trying to reach trade 10 in 1674. John was saying it was 900 000 research to get there. That is 3 time's as much before the patch. So as you go higher in tech, the steeper the cost to invest.

We are talking about the viablity of nation's who are outside the latin tech group. Nation's such as England, Spain and any nation that concentrate's on trade can handle this change. But what about nation's who are stuck in the orth tech group or even latin countries with low income. Poland who is no where as large as the Ottoman Empire, still has over 40k to research to infra 6. For me it was over 50k, and the reason behind that was, I was full cent, but full narrowminded, plus the sheer size of my empire made teching more difficult.

Think on this, 40k for Poland in the year 1700? Isn't that just a tad too steep? Poland's income is what 100? Maybe not even that, but let's say it was 100. How long do you think it it will take Poland to research that? It would take decade's. Now consider the problem for Russia. Their tech cost's are going to be huge. For one, they naturally go narrowminded, and with their huge size, their tech cost's would be in the range of what my Ottoman Empire is. Yet their income invariably will be alot lower then the OE. So the problem now compound's even more now with Russia.

The only reason why my OE has even a chance to overcome these hurdle's is because I teched trade. I got to infra 5, then ignored it for trade. When this patch then came in, for sure I would of been screwed. I was trade 9 before this patch, it would of been impossible for me to tech trade with this patch.

These tech cost's are absolutely absurd. If they seriously wanted us not to hypertech, then they should of changed the later portion's of the tech paradym. But the whole change effect's the paradym, from bottom to top. Smaller nation's even latin tech nation's who do not have the income, won't be able to infra tech or trade tech. They will need to concentrate on one aspect and stay there. Because of this change, I know for certain, everyone will be concentrating on trade. Get to infra 5, then forget about it, then concentrate on trade to get some income coming in for them. There just isn't enough reward to go infra now. It's just too expensive.

There just wasn't enough thought put into this patch. Especially the impact that it has on the nation's outside the latin tech group. Everyone was worried about a hyperteching England, yet, no one thought to consider nation's like Russia and Poland. What a disappointing patch.

Duma
 

unmerged(10894)

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Sorry about barging in here, but since Duma raised these issues here.... :)

When they were first introduced as an idea, almost no one objected to them and I don't truly think that everyone realised what would happen to the nations lower down the tech groups. There's really no need to attack anyone (especially Johan) about not thinking about the consequences when no one came up with a very good agrument why not to change it, even if it does really suck.

Orthodox nations are only 10% more tech costs, but the difference is often much more than that I think, because of the fact that orthodox is such a small tech group and orthodox nations do not get latin neighbour bonus (which they really need). Neighbour bonus I think would be better if done by continent I think, instead of tech group. The Ottoman Empire, Russia, and Poland (if they are Orthodox) all really hurt in tech because of a lack of neighbour bonus more than the 10% tech difference (which is only equal to 3 inno or 5 centra points, a difference that is often found within latin tech itself).

40k-50k for infra 6 as Poland in 1700 is really excessive though. I remember the time I played Russia even though I was almost full inno and centra most of the game I had a terrible time with techs. I ended with trade 4, and infra 9 (only because I had enough weapons mnfs that allowed me to invest in infra more than I otherwise would've been able to). Again if the neighbour bonus had have been carried over even from my uber-tech neighbours Sweden and Brandenburg, Russia probably would have been able to compete navally (at lest sort of), and probably would have had much more reasonable levels of infra and trade (as a sidenote, in that game pretty much every latin nation had comfortably finished 10 infra/trade by 1750 or earlier. For that reason I am glad about the changes).

It's my bet that games that are in the mid stages such as DoW will be hit hardest, as the latin nations will already have been past these levels, while the orthodox nations won't. However any new games should be a little bit better for the orthodox tech group's cause, as latin nations will be facing these penalties as well, and since they'll be hitting them first and will be much harder hit than those nations coming after them, thus the difference between orthodox and latin nations will not be so extreme, which may actually help orthodox nations at lest for a while. Even though latins may tech military, eventually they will hit ahead penalty there as well, and the very fact that with worse economic techs, the latins will not be able to tech military as fast as they could first.

Even though it sucks for the games already part way through (and maybe if you guys agree, the orthodox nations may need a tech boost to bring them closer to latins), wait for a little bit and allow some newer games to try it out before you go crying home to the safety of mummy. Who knows, the change may be good yet if it's gotten used of. If it still sucks then, well then it's a good reason to revert back (at lest partially, I think the general step in this direction was a good one).
 

unmerged(3158)

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Maybe your right Boc. Then again I think Johan expect's me to object to any new patch that come's out. Which I don't normally. I do object to any change's that radically redefine how nation's interact with eachother. The tech paradym being one of the key one's.

At least you have a good understanding on why the Orthodox tech group countries suffer so compared to the latin countries, and I agree wholeheartedly on your point's. Many and I think most people don't realize the huge latin tech bonus's that latin countries get. People can say that it's only a 10% tech hit compared to the latin countries, but to these people I say, you don't know what you are talking about.

I'm very firmly against to any change to the tech paradym. As I said previously, EU2 uses a very simple game system and trying to add complexity to it only unbalance's it.

One last thing, I was one of the few who objected to any change's to the tech paradym. I had it out with Slargo's in one of this thread's. Let's just say, he came off as all knowing and condensing which is amusing considering everyone here has an opinion, but he would of rather just force everyone to follow his view and accept that his view's were the correct one's.
 

DSYoungEsq

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Duma said:
DS

Those change's to the tech paradym have almost increased tech cost's by nearly 100%. We aren't talking about small 10 or 20 percent change's here. We are talking about tech level's now needed double what they cost previously and if you noticed what John and me were talking about trying to reach trade 10 in 1674. John was saying it was 900 000 research to get there. That is 3 time's as much before the patch. So as you go higher in tech, the steeper the cost to invest.
...
Duma
Duma. Think about what you are saying. Why in the WORLD should any nation even be ABLE to achieve Trade or Infra 10 by 1674??? That level is supposed to equate to the level achieved by only a few Western European nations at the end of the game in the early 1800's! It makes a complete mockery of the whole game that a nation can even contemplate achieving that goal so early.

Further, the issue isn't the costs involved anyway. Hyperteching is only possible when nations are allowed to avoid investment in military techs. In SP, this is possible because you can out manoeuver the AI in war, so that you don't suffer the consequences of being a CRT level behind. But in MP, any player who lets themselves be a full CRT behind another player should be forced to pay the consequences. If England focuses on infra and trade early, France and Spain should jump to LT 18 and assault England with everything they have; England would die a quick death. Likewise, if Spain decides to cash in on Trade through teching, she should have France, England and any Central European power with a port access to the Med on her like white on rice.

When a country gains a significant advantage in resource gathering, it will win the game, regardless of how it manipulates the research issue. The goal of all players is to prevent someone else from accomplishing this, while accomplishing it themselves.

You and I are playing an MP game where for the first roughly 250 years England and France allowed each other to go for economic heaven, and the rest of the world basically sat and watched it happen. Now, Spain threatens to crash the party because it managed to lull England and France to sleep so that it could achieve economic gains. Yet back in the 1500's, the country with more resources than any other was, .......... yes! the Ottoman Empire, which, while it fought some wars with Spain, was quite content in those wars to soak up the Spanish attacks and never went forward with the natural plan for the OE: conquer all of North Africa and attempt the Re-reconquista. Now, it's too late.

*I* personally believe that, if someone does the analysis I suggested, it will show that the most effective use of income over the course of the game will involve either alternating between economic and military techs, to avoid severe AoTP's, or even better yet, putting some portion of income to military AND to economic tech all the time, which, of course, is what should be the set up in the first place. :)

Of course, I could be wrong, but I suggest doing the calculations before trying to prove it. :D
 

unmerged(17563)

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We seem to have a balance issue with Eastern Europe now, I propose to move OE. Poland and Russia to the latin tech group so that they can keep pace with the west :)

Call this a stop gap measure for now and hopefully Johan will tone down the ahead of time penalty. :)
 

PJL

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Duma said:
DS John and me were talking about trying to reach trade 10 in 1674. John was saying it was 900 000 research to get there. That is 3 time's as much before the patch. So as you go higher in tech, the steeper the cost to invest.

If the new patch made it three times more expensive to reach trade 10 in the 1670's, then that is a good thing IMO. No-one should be getting trade 10 that early.....
 

Sakaras

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Fact still remains in this game that Eastern Europe is useless now in the next 20- 30 years unless something is done Otts and Poland will not be able to compet with anyone and Russia may already be out of the game.