Doesn't Development end... very unrealistic?

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BurnT

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So a system where you arbitrarily press a button for more manpower is worth money, but a system that responds to the actions you take is not?

I suppose you meant me - well, at least I would spent more money on it, because it gives me the opportunity to decide, when to develop what in which province. I mean why shouldn't I be able to develop manpower, even if I've been playing peacefully? That doesn't mean that I consider the current development-system very engageing, but it does give me a better control than something passive ...

That being said I don't think your idea is generally bad, it would be kind of neat to have your actions affect your abilities - but to me that rather translates into modifying your MP-income or -expenses, and then it's up to the player what to decide to do with it - actively.

[edit] finally got the wording right ...
 

Bavarian Steve

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I suppose you meant me - well, at least I would spent more money on it, because it gives me the opportunity to decide, when to develop what in which province. I mean why shouldn't I be able to develop manpower, even if I've been playing peacefully? That doesn't mean that I consider the current development-system very engageing, but it does give me a better control than something passive ...

That being said I think your idea is generally bad, it would be kind of neat to have your actions affect your abilities - but to me that rather translates into modifying your MP-income or -expenses, and then it's up to the player what to decide to do with it - actively.
My main concern with my idea of having your actions determine development is the fact that I have no idea whether the devs came up with this system as a way to burn monarch points, or if the system was made purely to allow province values to increase. If it is the former, then my idea is useless, because the problem with what to do with excess monarch points becomes an issue again.
 

BurnT

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My main concern with my idea of having your actions determine development is the fact that I have no idea whether the devs came up with this system as a way to burn monarch points, or if the system was made purely to allow province values to increase. If it is the former, then my idea is useless, because the problem with what to do with excess monarch points becomes an issue again.

The way I always thought about it (I might be wrong though) is that it should provide an alternative to conquest - tall vs. wide. Basically: expand little, develop much or expand much, develop little. For that purpose it must use MP (since you spend ADM and/or DIP for expanding) otherwise you'd just do both. And the RoI should be comparable ...

[edit] btw, I had edited my post before your quote - I forgot a very essential "don't" before "think your idea ..." ;)
 

happymix91

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EU doesn't reflect population growth and urbanization. Technology growth in EU just affects national income, not a province development(though high technology makes improving development easy). We can't say that 60 dev Asian province which is under low-tech country makes more thing for that country than 30 dev European province of high tech country, but if that Asian country gain the 30 dev European province, it can't get the things which former owner got from the province. Population and technology growth are tied to country, not province.

So those things which you guys feel awkward happen.

Now, EU can reflect national concentration on certain provinces. Someday we can experiece more realistic province development growth with population and technology growth too.
 

Bavarian Steve

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The way I always thought about it (I might be wrong though) is that it should provide an alternative to conquest - tall vs. wide. Basically: expand little, develop much or expand much, develop little. For that purpose it must use MP (since you spend ADM and/or DIP for expanding) otherwise you'd just do both. And the RoI should be comparable ...

[edit] btw, I had edited my post before your quote - I forgot a very essential "don't" before "think your idea ..." ;)
LOL. I honestly read it with a "don't" in there already. Maybe, instead of monarch points, there could be a 4th mana type called development points. These could be generic points that could be used to develop your provinces. They could be acquired in many different ways... declaring war, raising stability, building buildings, building trade ships, etc... But by seperateing out the development away from the traditional monarch points, they could also use a multiplier to the amount of development points you earn based on your country size. You could scale the multiplier in a way also that makes playing tall as a small nation still feasible. example: if you are 3 provinces or smaller your multiplier for development points is 1. If you are between 3 and 10 provinces, your multiplier for development points is 2. and so on. That would prevent Wallachia or Ryuku from out developing London or Paris, but because the multiplier is less than the total provinces you own, it would still allow smaller nations to be feasible because they would still have more development, just not by as much as the current system allows. I think the flaw in the system, obviously, is the fact that development is tied to monarch points, a thing that is not possible to use variables on because it would in turn create technological balance issues.
 
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kamyon

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I -without the knowledge of why- felt compelled to back Wiz up in that argument. For me, the very implementation of the Development system is here because when achieving ahistorical things in this game, like a westernized, technologically advanced, Eurasian Persian Empire but not being able to make your lands developed as a beaten down, financially broken France was actually not logical and also somewhat ahistorical (If you are a superpower, you develop your lands, that's that). In this context, the idea of having Kongo owning entire Africa or France conquering the Siberia or, I don't know, doing any other thing which is the reason you play the game (changing history) never questioned by players if done by the players but somehow if an ahistorical Baluchi empire which develops their land or a Wallachia who is never bugged by Hungary or the Ottomans, or a Gelre OPM, who is apparently keeping powerful and smart diplomatic relationships so that they are not eaten by their more powerful neighbor (with the consideration that they never become "free city" or "elector" status protection) which enables them to focus more on development, developing their lands bugs the players if done by the AI. This somewhat seems as hypocrisy considering you want to play the game but the game you want to play is not this. The question should be asked here is that do you want a game which you play as England but can not invade mainland because it is ahistorical or play as Inca and lose every war against the Conquistadors because this is very historical? I hope not because you would not need any computer game to do it when thousands of history books exist to explain those things in detail. But if you want a game in which the Ryukyu nation can conquer the world, you should not try to disable the things which enable this type of events to happen or bugged with the fact that the AI (which you outsmart and outwit in every way as a Human being) possesses the options and possibilities same with player do in a game.
 
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Zander

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I feel like one thing the system could use is a discount to larger nations developing their capital. That would help reflect the fact that historically these tended to become more central over time. However, some thought would have to go into how to prevent capital moves being used to exploit this system: perhaps some kind of cooldown/timer on the discount.
 

Bavarian Steve

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I -without the knowledge of why- felt compelled to back Wiz up in that argument. For me, the very implementation of the Development system is here because when achieving ahistorical things in this game, like a westernized, technologically advanced, Eurasian Persian Empire but not being able to make your lands developed as a beaten down, financially broken France was actually not logical and also somewhat ahistorical (If you are a superpower, you develop your lands, that's that). In this context, the idea of having Kongo owning entire Africa or France conquering the Siberia or, I don't know, doing any other thing which is the reason you play the game (changing history) never questioned by players if done by the players but somehow if an ahistorical Baluchi empire which develops their land or a Wallachia who is never bugged by Hungary or the Ottomans, or a Gelre OPM, who is apparently keeping powerful and smart diplomatic relationships so that they are not eaten by their more powerful neighbor (with the consideration that they never become "free city" or "elector" status protection) which enables them to focus more on development, developing their lands bugs the players if done by the AI. This somewhat seems as hypocrisy considering you want to play the game but the game you want to play is not this. The question should be asked here is that do you want a game which you play as England but can not invade mainland because it is ahistorical or play as Inca and lose every war against the Conquistadors because this is very historical? I hope not because you would not need any computer game to do it when thousands of history books exist to explain those things in detail. But if you want a game in which the Ryukyu nation can conquer the world, you should not try to disable the things which enable this type of events to happen or bugged with the fact that the AI (which you outsmart and outwit in every way as a Human being) possesses the options and possibilities same with player do in a game.
Historical is one thing, Illogical is another.
 
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Wizzington

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Why did you only show London and Moska, one of which starts with a 0 0 0 and one of which is Eastern?
 
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Bavarian Steve

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This system needs to be improved. Super-High developed provinces in the HRE are very common (sense?) right now. Lorraine, wallachia, dutch minors are the usual examples. you can't fabricate claims on them because they have very high spy defence, and the aggressive expansion if you take them slows down the game even more.

I would really like a money based system, where mana-points don't play a role at all. Trading nations would profit from it and it wouldn't cripple large nations so much in that aspect. you could also add a "was recently developed"-modifier with -50% tax/pro/man on those provinces. It would ensure small OPMs dont increase their development exponentially. A monarch with good admin skills should also be able to make development cheaper. And finally some mechanics to destroy development would be very nice too
A gold based system creates an inequitable system also. INCA would be taking over the world with the boats they steal from the conquistadors.
 

Bavarian Steve

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they had very high development, didn't they? any way you could simply link development efficiency to tech group
good way to handle rich, technologically backwards nations from becoming too developed, but what about the inverse? Nations in this game that do not earn a lot of gold but are technologically advanced?
 

Jens Z

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You are confusing realism with immersion/flavor.

Immersion/flavor is playing a WW2 shooter and using a mosin-nagant instead of a laser gun - this is important.

Realism is playing a WW2 shooter and having to spend 2 months in hospital everytime you get shot - stupid and detrimental to gameplay. Nobody actually wants a realistic game, which is why realism arguments are so selectively used.

I disagree. You cannot have immersion/flavor if immerson is broken by implementing unrealistc (=implausible) game elements. Example: World of Tanks is an arcade tank game, yet we dont see pink flying tanks there, do we.

The development of provinces in EU doesnt need to be detailed to reach highly realistic level. But it needs to reflect reality in a plausible way. Please get back on the track which made EU such a great game.
 
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I disagree. You cannot have immersion/flavor if immerson is broken by implementing unrealistc (=implausible) game elements. Example: World of Tanks is an arcade tank game, yet we dont we see pink flying tanks there, do we.

The development of provinces in EU doesnt need to be detailed to reach highly realistic level. But it needs to reflect reality in a plausible way.

World of Tanks has tons of unrealistic game elements.
 
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Why did you only show London and Moska, one of which starts with a 0 0 0 and one of which is Eastern?
Because they are the Capitals of the only 2 Countries which

(1) Are ranked in the top 5 in this game in 1582;

(2) Have expanded beyond their 1444 borders through something other than Events and Decisions;

(3) Have a Capital which has been Developed through something other than Events and Decisions.

Constantinople will always have at least 34 Development as the result of a Decision but very little above that since the cost is too prohibitive. I considered showing that redundant.

Beijing (surprise surprise!) hasn't Developed - the cost is just as prohibitive as Constantinople. Ming expanded a little but also had many rebellions and Dali declared independence.

Paris is taken by England (which you can see in my screenshot) and of course the English had not Developed it at all.

Toledo is at 25 Development and Castile hasn't really expanded except through inheriting Aragon. It also starts with Monarch/Heir just as bad as England's. Would this be a better example than London?

Next on list of large countries are a Hungary half-eaten by Ottomans and Emperor Bohemia who hasn't Cored or Annexed anything.

I hope you can see why I don't find these interesting enough to put on a screenshot. But if you like to see any of them I'd be glad to put them up.

Finally, the problem IMO is that small nations Develop too easily, not that large nations don't Develop enough. The extend to which large nations such as the Ottomans Develop in the current BETA is much closer to historical reality IMO.
 
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