Doesn't Development end... very unrealistic?

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Axe99

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Ruler mana continues to prove itself a horrible concept.

I don't think it's horrible 'in principle' - in some ways it's a great way of putting into the game the impact of the ruler of the time on the nation (money, after all, is just 'mana' of another sense, as is manpower). However, for ruler mana plus advisors as the model for almost 'everything' (that isn't colonisation or religious conversion - religious conversion is money and cultural conversion is MP, which feels a little odd to me, even just in the context of the game's current systems) it feels like it's stretched a bit thin.
 

Axe99

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At zero manpower you could simulate a loss of development because you lost so many men that there arent enough farmers or artisans there to keep up the same production/tax values. this could simulate the long term destruction by wars rather well, remember how devastated europe was after the 30 year war...

It could simulate the long-term destruction by wars, but I'm not sure about whether it would do it well, as the link between the manpower and the economy in the game is virtually non-existent. What you're trying to do is graft an economic relationship to a stat that isn't currently integrated into the economic system of the game. The other issue you've got is that development isn't just about population - so manpower dropping will mean less effective use of the economic capital available, but it doesn't mean that capital disappears. If, instead, you had manpower as a multiplier for the use of capital (buildings/development), then it'd come closer, although development (in the game, in modelling economic activity) represents an odd mix of buildings, infrastructure, natural resources, population and social structures (amongst other things).

So beyond the fact that manpower doesn't act in a way that supports how actual economies acted (by and large, given the other elements of the economic model in the game), using it that way is likely to further skew results (and require a lot of balancing in national/ normal idea groups and with manpower recovery rates and bonuses as well - Quantity would be a complete no-brainer for anyone playing anything under this kind of model, rather than just for map-painters or low-MP nations trying to survive).
 

Kamiran

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It could simulate the long-term destruction by wars, but I'm not sure about whether it would do it well, as the link between the manpower and the economy in the game is virtually non-existent. What you're trying to do is graft an economic relationship to a stat that isn't currently integrated into the economic system of the game. The other issue you've got is that development isn't just about population - so manpower dropping will mean less effective use of the economic capital available, but it doesn't mean that capital disappears. If, instead, you had manpower as a multiplier for the use of capital (buildings/development), then it'd come closer, although development (in the game, in modelling economic activity) represents an odd mix of buildings, infrastructure, natural resources, population and social structures (amongst other things).

I agree.
If you want more realismn, then wars in EU IV would be more devastating and riskful (permanent development decrease, much higher AE and coalitions, less army size, lot of attrition to oversea armies....), but all this was simplified in order to kill not the fun of the game. And i think that was a good choice in first place.
But now, the game (and the player) have reached a level, were more realismn would increase the joy of playing the game (and increse the difficulty of the game).

You can conquer the world with ottomans in 1700 in ironman, be great power with byzantium or ryukyu, colonize complete america and still hold them in your influece sphere and so on. The Common Sense DLC was advertized as "play tall and be successful". But its still much much more easier to conquer what you want, then to develop peacefully. In my opinion, there should be more penalty for being a warmonger, more realismn in warfare and the diplomatic results. In Vic 2 you have to decide, shall my man go to work or shall they go to conquer new land.
I see no relation in these tasks: improve the production of a province, negotiate peace treaties and invent shipyards, but in the current system it is all paid with the same magic currency.
Yeah I agree its an abstraction that population gets consumed by developing a province, but it make more sense then improve production by diplomatic power that is generated by a random ruler.

So beyond the fact that manpower doesn't act in a way that supports how actual economies acted (by and large, given the other elements of the economic model in the game), using it that way is likely to further skew results (and require a lot of balancing in national/ normal idea groups and with manpower recovery rates and bonuses as well - Quantity would be a complete no-brainer for anyone playing anything under this kind of model, rather than just for map-painters or low-MP nations trying to survive).

If we really use manpower for development, the quantity idea have to be modified (max force limit down to 33%, man power generation down to 25%, and national ideas down from 25% to 15%)
And then integrate a 3 step system like administration efficency, that increase max forcelimit and manpower generation by 10% (3 times) by technology for all.
 
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Latheloi

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What if, in addition to development, there was also a soft development cap for each province which increased over time. Going over it would be costly, and the AI would be unlikely to do it, but it still gives the player options. If a province was a distance behind its development cap, there would be a development cost reduction. This would have the advantage of not needing to remove or restrict a paid feature.

Because part of the problem is unlikely places being highly developed (and likely ones NOT being so) the soft cap could increase (or possibly even decrease), over time, based on conditions like:
Capital province,
COTs,
Trade value in zone and extra for value retained (so important trade areas and trade routes increase, and trade is linked to development)
Peace,
Siege (reduction),
Looting (reduction),

Possibly something else which would reflect where the high development of a nearby province dampens the growth of nearby, less important provinces. Say, a malus to development cap growth to counties bordering a province with 50% or more development.

BUT, then, once they were significantly behind on development (neighbouring province with 100% more development) the malus would be replaced with a small bonus - to represent the well developed counties dragging their hinterlands upwards with them.

All of those modifiers would (I think) encourage development early in important parts of the ROTW, and provide steadily increasing incentives to develop in europe as the global trade increases.
 
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JoeSteel

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Haha wallachia always does that.
Playing my current hungary game and got Pest up to 16 tax 12 production and 10 manpower in the early 1600s so I decide to look around for my rivals to having the city of the world.
Look over to paris first, and they are just slightly behind me. I think "YES i'm top dog!", then I look at my neighbors and see that wallachia has around the same as paris in all provinces, and lolwut.
Dacula got the mega cities going on.
 
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magitsu

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Dacula got the mega cities going on.
This is why it doesn't make sense e.g. to ever annex vassals as HRE these days. Everyone of them dumps some of their own MP into dev.

I think developing should be limited only to accepted cultures and you should have some sort of "national focus" which would be multiplied based on your size like in V2. So the tiniest countries would have accepted pops for only 1 nf even if their tech would enable up to 4 or 5.
If monarch points or having full manpower would stay as a part of calculation (33% of cost?) it would still be possible to reward small, stable and peaceful but take into account the large differences in country sizes.
 
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TheMeInTeam

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If you want more realismn, then wars in EU IV would be more devastating and riskful (permanent development decrease, much higher AE and coalitions, less army size

lol

Edit:

The reason I laugh is that coalitions as they are in the game never existed in history, and historical coalitions formed on different logic than "AE" abstracts.

Ottomans had a larger army sieging Constantinople than they have in the game, and nations throughout the time period in game tend to have more or less army than they had in reality in both directions, so "less army size" globally isn't perfectly real either.

Development decrease is the only realistic thing mentioned in that entire line, which is why I laughed.
 
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radiatoren

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I dislike too heavy economic costs for developing, since it will punish the small and tall relatively far harder than large empires.

I would look at furthering the loot-system. Like a possibility to sac an enemy province to decrease admin development-level for loot. Make something like unrest in a province and low manpower potentially decrease military development and something alike for diplomatic if local spy-defence (as part of making the stat meaningful) and reputation are too low.

Alternatively the development system could be tied to more events.

Those could make the development more dynamic, while still encouraging playing tall.
 

Anatur

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Here is an idea.

Mabye put a limit to the maximum development of 20 in each category for regulare provinces and 30 for capitals.

That way the smaller nations wont just keep spamming the develope button indeffinetly and we can avoid unrealistic huge metropolises.
 

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they should make it cheaper to develop your province if your neighbours have high dev aswell.
This will support high developped centers of the world.

Not something really over the top, but something like -1% per adjacent X development? This would favor inland provinces. Not sure if that's a good thing or not.
 

sterrius

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I always thinked that the soft cap used in gold mines should be used on everything. (Not a 10 cap, a little more but you get the idea).

Also a really big but a hard cap should exist. (Enough to build every single structure, so something like 60-80). Also Terrain should limit or help this cap. (So instead of mountain making things so expensive they can just hold less improvement).

Nothing against small provinces having a chance against big ones.
BUT

A small province is still just a province. Its not supposed to fight france.
I also Like to think this system more to help small provinces fight among themselves. No amount of development is going to save you from a mid-large sized country, but can mean everything against another 1 minor.

Also the AI should have a "Enough is Enough" condition. Makes no point for the AI spending thousands of points on development.
 

TheSavage01

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If you look at why certain regions "developed" and others didn't, there are a few straightforward, easy-to-implement factors that could solve the issue to everyone's satisfaction (preventing tall megacities in Siberia but allowing them where appropriate).

If you combine the following factors, you would allow highly developed provinces in plausible situations while preventing them elsewhere.


Geography
Easier Development:
+++ river estuary
+ adjacent to river estuary
+ coastal
+ rich farmland
+ along river (even if inland)
Harder Development:
- - - tundra/desert
- mountain

Wealth
+++ trade center
+ adjacent to trade center
++ high province production value (which will be affected by both production tech and buildings constructed)
+ high value of collected trade in node
- - low province production value
- low value of collected trade in node

Stability / Politics
== NO DEVELOPMENT DURING WAR
== Military Devestation - however defined - should either reduce development or result in a long (10-30yr) development timeout. Options to define could range from enemy army presence in territory to successful siege/occupation to razing of crops.
+++ capital (gets cheaper as nation gets larger)
+ adjacent to capital
++ high stability
++ high prestige
- - low stability
- - low prestige

These factors would need to be balanced, but my general sense is that the ideal province for development - for example, Venice in ascendancy, the wealthy capital of a prestigious trade empire blessed by geography - should be at least 3x cheaper to develop than an "average" province and 6x cheaper than a poor, backward, landlocked arctic/desert province.
 
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BrokenSky

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== Military Devestation - however defined - should either reduce development or result in a long (10-30yr) development timeout. Options to define could range from enemy army presence in territory to successful siege/occupation to razing of crops.

How about not being able to develop provinces unless their loot bars are full?
 
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Beagá

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So, anyone played with the official patch until 1600 or 1700? Values too crazy, specially with OPMs, or better balanced now?
 

radiatoren

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I still think it's insane so minor thing got 220 likes, it's like 2nd or 3th most liked thing I have ever seen on these forums
Some factors:
The OP is a well-written, fact-based opinion and open for discussion as to what can/should be done!
You focus on an area that is relatively newly implemented, already controversial and already changed. Pointing out a factual oddity in it is going to gain sympathy.
A reply from a developer! (Probably partly as a consequence of how well written the OP is)
I agree with you that the feature has an amazing potential, but doesn't really feel final since the reality is far more dynamic than its current implementation. I would venture a guess that many agree with that sentiment. Many are probably a little disappointed that the feature lacks a counter-measure apart from conquest.