Doesn't Development end... very unrealistic?

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Karnak

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I'm sorry if this has already been suggested but how about scaling monarch points?
The amount of monarch points a country gets and the tech cost, war exhaustion, stability cost, inflation reduction etc... scales along with the country's size. However, things like development cost, culture converting and possibly coring don't. This means that although larger nations spend the same proportion of their monarch points on tech, they also have more to spend on other things as well.
Hey i have an idea. Let's use ducats for monarch power. Income already DOES scale with size/success.
For things like stability and technology which is nation-wide, their cost in ducats could instead scale with provinces!
Wait... This is exactly how it was done in EU3. Scrap the MP system!
 

MrOobling

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Except monarch points aren't the same as ducats. You can't just replace one thing with another completely different thing to dismiss an idea- that is not how you dismiss an idea. Unlike ducats, monarch points would be fixed according to your size- not able to change according to trade or tax efficiency or maintenance or any of these variables.The only things which would affect it would be the size, leader and advisors (or other modifiers like tech group and national focus). In addition, tech cost will always be relative to the number of monarch points you have. This would mean, unlike ducats, you can't get a massive excess.
 
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CNY10000

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I'm sorry if this has already been suggested but how about scaling monarch points?
The amount of monarch points a country gets and the tech cost, war exhaustion, stability cost, inflation reduction etc... scales along with the country's size. However, things like development cost, culture converting and possibly coring don't. This means that although larger nations spend the same proportion of their monarch points on tech, they also have more to spend on other things as well.

Your idea could work if well implemented. But, it would require a large overhaul to the game, much larger than the development. It's very likely to be broken and unfixed for long.
 
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vodkaholic

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Here's my beef with the current system:

Even with the nerfs to limit development in the recent 1.13 beta, the core problem has remained. That is, AI or player development in a given set of provinces does not come from:
a) inspired leadership
b) abundant resources
c) smart investments
d) any kind of "social" or outside pressures

No, it comes from countries unable to expand and sitting on their asses clicking the improvement buttons. All this meaning that the largest metropolises arise in something like Luxemburg instead of a Milan, Rome, London, or Paris, etc.

There needs to be something else to represent actual resources poured in to improving a province, as well as other organic limitations (such as too much density or scarcity of resources), because monarch point income is totally divorced from anything directly representing population, production etc. Other solutions such as a cooldown timer and/or monetary costs are a fair start to stopping the rise of ridiculous OPM metropolises.

-----------

One idea I had, (and that I think should be considered) was that instead of having linear progression by clicking the same 3 buttons on the interface, there could be a whole new "development" panel somewhere that works similarly to buildings, and gives everyone the same limited number of small-to-moderate sized boosts to development values. It could be stuff like +1/+1/+1, or +4/+4/+0 as a lategame boost, or even something like -1/-1/+4, or any conceivable combination with the numbers balanced as we go on. Ideally each boost would have a different monarch point cost associated with it (equivalent to maybe 1/4 or 1/2 the cost of an idea slot), as well as a monetary cost, and optionally a cooldown/construction timer to limit mass improvements.

The boosts would represent the implementation of new top-down government policies (maybe abolition of serfdom), the presence of conditions that allow arts/trade/manufacturing to flourish, or the abolition/supplanting of old ways of thinking.

Also, since everyone can pick from the same set, the total amount of development available has a hard cap that is in line with the maximum achievements of the era. This way, some sorry mountain province like Waldstatte is pretty much guaranteed to never overshoot a major starting capital or farmland/grassland provinces that are better suited to development.

As an additional limiter, certain boosts can have certain buildings or government types/rank as a pre-requisite, which means a soft tech-limit (e.g. one boost requiring barracks while another requires training fields, or a certain boost requiring a government type enabled by "The Enlightenment"), as well as ensuring that capitals/high development/good environment areas can't get overtaken by OPMs in mountains/highlands/marshes.

Lastly, perhaps to represent certain nations making an active and purposeful decision to commit to development, the Economics idea group finisher could possibly change to "+1 building slots per province" to allow these dedicated nations to explore the development boost tree farther than they could otherwise based on building requirements.

Beyond the balancing of numbers, this should be easy to implement as it would mimic the building interface, and could even take the place of the current development panel on the quick-build menu, albeit with a different look.
 
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Ilightmaster

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As an additional limiter, certain boosts can have certain buildings or government types/rank as a pre-requisite, which means a soft tech-limit (e.g. one boost requiring barracks while another requires training fields, or a certain boost requiring a government type enabled by "The Enlightenment"), as well as ensuring that capitals/high development/good environment areas can't get overtaken by OPMs in mountains/highlands/marshes.

I totally agree with that ... !!!! All in fact except your first point
 

MWSampson

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Manpower is probably the best resource that scales with country size. It means countries like France could improve their territory and countries like The Knights would struggle past a certain point.
You can scale the cost according to nation size and maximum manpower. So at 1 Province you might need 10% of manpower, but at 100 provinces it might be 1% manpower.

Clearly development then rewards peaceful play (good), and uses a resource which isn't usually infinite. But also gives flexibility in allowing big countries to develop. It means having lots of not-dead fertile men rewards your country with more not-dead fertile men in the future.
Downside: A potentially unlimited resource for big angry blobs.
 
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Kamiran

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Manpower is probably the best resource that scales with country size. It means countries like France could improve their territory and countries like The Knights would struggle past a certain point.
You can scale the cost according to nation size and maximum manpower. So at 1 Province you might need 10% of manpower, but at 100 provinces it might be 1% manpower.

Clearly development then rewards peaceful play (good), and uses a resource which isn't usually infinite. But also gives flexibility in allowing big countries to develop. It means having lots of not-dead fertile men rewards your country with more not-dead fertile men in the future.
Downside: A potentially unlimited resource for big angry blobs.

That makes sense. Very good idea.
If you fight wars in Victoria 2 and your soldiers die, you also lose your potential workfoce.
The manpower is nothing else than citizien of your country that have nothing to do. You could use them as soldiers or as workforce to develop your country. Unlike trade income it grow in much smaller amounts then trade or production. And playing tall means in most cases, dont conquer much. So you have no use in manpower.

Great idea!!
 

MWSampson

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The manpower is nothing else than citizien of your country that have nothing to do. You could use them as soldiers or as workforce to develop your country. Unlike trade income it grow in much smaller amounts then trade or production. And playing tall means in most cases, dont conquer much. So you have no use in manpower.

It also adds a penalty for situations where you're only targeting your wars with slow expansion - in particular when warring with one country repeated. With 15 year truce times, it'll take you 10 years to refill your troops, so your manpower losses in a war are almost completely irrelevant (which is the main flaw of scaling peace timers - albeit not a common one as rarely do you only have one direction).

Currently you can lose up to 150% of your manpower with no loss*. But with this every man you unnecessarily lose impacts on development. I feel there are downsides to this. Snowballing might be stronger - but I guess some penalty associated with country size could prevent over-development in the richer countries.

*You can move from 100% manpower to 0% manpower. Then you can lose 50% again in your standing army that need to be reinforced.
 
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Axe99

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Just thinking out loud, but I'm not sure if you'd use manpower as a 'currency' per se, as unlike wars, you don't lose thousands of construction workers when you build a university (well, hopefully!) What if the percentage of manpower available was a multiplier to development cost - such that it would be relatively cheap to develop at full manpower, and very expensive to nigh-on-impossible if it was closer to empty?
 
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Axe99

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because than it would still be monarch point based and small countrys would still develop themselves too much while big ones less. And I don't think increasing administrative efficiency is similar to building universitys (that building is already there and costs ducats), it is more like promoting settlers or something

It doesn't need to be monarch-point based, working in a mix of MP and ducat cost would mean everyone could do it, but small countries would be limited by money, but would be able to develop more if they had higher manpower as the cost would be lower.
 

MWSampson

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Just thinking out loud, but I'm not sure if you'd use manpower as a 'currency' per se, as unlike wars, you don't lose thousands of construction workers when you build a university (well, hopefully!)

... That's not the way to think of man power - nor development!
Man power is the resource of able-bodied men. If they're all building infrastructure across a whole region for 10 years then it would mean that they can't join the army. The development isn't just one building it's a great number of buildings. That in total might take their fighting lives to build.

It's an abstract resource anyway. Man power clearly doesn't represent lives per se because men don't stand around for 400 years in one province without reinforcements!
 
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Axe99

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... That's not the way to think of man power - nor development!
Man power is the resource of able-bodied men. If they're all building infrastructure across a whole region for 10 years then it would mean that they can't join the army. The development isn't just one building it's a great number of buildings. That in total might take their fighting lives to build.

It's an abstract resource anyway. Man power clearly doesn't represent lives per se because men don't stand around for 400 years in one province without reinforcements!

Exactly - so instead of spending X manpower on X development, an X level of manpower means the cost of developing is cheaper (as development will still need materials, know-how and what-have you). I think we're thinking the same way, I might just not be communicating it well :).
 

MWSampson

Second Lieutenant
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Jun 8, 2013
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Why Money Would Be Bad:
1) AI is bad with money
2) Admin development is for money, requiring money for money is okay, but... that's what buildings are for
3) Diplomatic development is for money
4) This would create snowballing. Your rich nations would snowball aggressively financially.
5) Even wealthy AI can have little income
6) Loans
7) Many simulations/playtesting required to see the effect of the change (some OPMs have +0.4 budgets, but others might have +0.1 and big countries aren't guaranteed big budgets)

Then you have questions:
Each development in admin gives you +1 gold a year. Say you want development once every 20 years? Then do you increase the ducat cost by 20? So then they can't spend it? Or do you increase it by 10? But then they might start doing it too fast? It's almost impossible to control the period of time between the developments. That's not good, you want to have a good exception of the result. BUT say you make it greater than 20, then richer countries can improve it, and the diminishing margin of returns applies - which is great. But you might get little/no development - which in a city at peace for 400 years you actually want.
Should the AI take loans for development? They'll always pay themselves back - if so, should it be doing so regularly, after all that +1 gold per year might mean the inflation is 3 or 4 percent over the course of the loan, but they're already paying 100 admin for one development...

The reason manpower is good:
1) All countries have a set minimum for their maximum (10,000)
2) It is known exactly how long it takes to collect this resource.
3) It is a tangible resource that increases with size of nation, but human players aren't always swimming in
4) It is easily scaleable due to how it's calculated.
5) There's a clear minimum

So if you want it to be one development every 20 years for a OPM? Well you can put a "Recently developed +5000 manpower cost to develop" modifier. It's not going to cause problems to a big nation, they'll develop a different province. But a OPM can't get much past 10k, so won't be able to do so more frequently than this modifier - the minimum-maximum being a clear advantage.

BASICALLY. Yeah, manpower is rewarding peaceful OPMs more, but the current system does that. However this system is easier to control. Chances are with many OPMs in the HRE that at least one will have a god-like king for many years ploughing into development. This lowers that variance. But it also doesn't add the snowballing of money or the fail-balling of money where the rich countries can't develop.

Like, solely from an ease of controlling a mechanic and being able to prevent OPMs being skylines and France being a desert this has more flexibility than money
 
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