Does the game feel historical to you?

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alqemist

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While this is true, the issue with statements like this is that they lead to the obvious follow-up question: Would the game then be plausible if it didn't have determinism? The answer is still a definite no. The problems with plausibility go far, far deeper than that.

It's not a history simulator you know
seems to be the stock answer to plausibility complaints. I am not sure what it is supposed to be but at the moment it sometimes feels more like an educational game designed to trick kids into learning some history. I think a game of this sort is plausible insofar as it succeeds as a history simulator. Note that simulation is not reproduction: reproducing history is something different, much easier, and less interesting.
 

Chamboozer

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I think a game of this sort is plausible insofar as it succeeds as a history simulator.

Well when most people say plausible (or at least when I do :p) they mean it in the sense of "the map looking like it could have realistically looked had history gone differently". A plausible alternate history is one that could have actually happened, which the game produces exactly zero percent of the time. Whether that's a good or bad thing is up to the player, but that's how it is, and I certainly believe it's impossible for it to be otherwise. Paradox can approach plausibility, but never possibly arrive there.

Though some people get enjoyment out of the game by imagining that the empire that they create is one that could have actually happened in reality, and they risk the game distorting their understanding of history to look more like a computer game than reality. I think, though, that most people know the difference and let the game be a good influence by having it motivate them to read more, like plenty of people in this thread and elsewhere have said. :)
 
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alqemist

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Well when most people say plausible (or at least when I do :p) they mean it in the sense of "the map looking like it could have realistically looked had history gone differently". A plausible alternate history is one that could have actually happened,

That's what a good simulation does. A good driving simulator game behaves in a way a real car might. It doesn't represent the car as taking discontinuous jumps or exhibit infinite acceleration. It takes inputs (control) from the player and translates these into car behavior according to the laws of physics. So a good history simulator game should take inputs (decisions) from the player and translate these into nation behavior according to the laws of history. What are the laws of history? that is a question I cannot answer.
 
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Chamboozer

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Yeah but car simulators are only possible because the designers can account for all of the necessary elements. All you need is physics for the vehicles and an AI that represents other cars and pedestrians. In contrast...

What are the laws of history? that is a question I cannot answer.

History is all of reality, and reality is too complex to be simulated. Even just the parts that are necessary for historical geopolitics.
 

wergy

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If you consider how accurately the game balance represents the actual balance of powers I would say the game is pretty bad. France is an unstoppable blob, usually takes out half the HRE and all of Spain, unless it gets under a PU of someone. Poland-Lithuania is just insanely powerful, they can easily outmatch anything i the HRE and even Muscovy if it fails to form Russia. Meanwhile the Balkans powers, the Berber pirate states, China or some Indian majors are ridiculously weak.
 

Wizzington

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That and it's a good opportunity to pot-shot the "explanation" we got for why "length of war" is somehow a necessary factor for the AI in weighting peace deals as-implemented. Supposedly, not having it makes wars not carry enough risk (which, in SP, should come off as something in the neighborhood of a joke to experienced players and is irrelevant in MP where the human is deciding peace deals on both ends). Is length of war in one of the 6-8 ongoing late game wars with full annexation in mind something I'm supposed to view as adding risk? Wasn't the justification of the 15 year truces in part to disincentivize total war as stated by the devs, despite that it and this length of war nonsense make anything other than total war a false choice in an overwhelming #cases?

Jomini crushed that argument pretty effectively from a different angle in that thread and then further discussion on it kind of died, as it usually does when the justification for status quo implementation is complete nonsense (nerfing native colonization, native ships, nerfing hordes, and regency councils have a similar tendency to result in "disappearing devs").

It's an example of making the AI self-harm on purpose with no observable benefit to the AI and claiming that the intention is to make it harder on the human. It's just as nonsensical as the horde nerfs but far more universal in that you will observe it as any nation you pick. If one's sense of immersion is from a "historical" perspective (good luck if that's your source in this game), this would be utterly shattering. Even moving cap to the new world (Portugal did it out of desperation temporarily) has more historical basis than "we have exactly what we want already and/or we're getting crushed, but we don't want to stop bleeding resources because this fight hasn't gone on long enough", which happened in history exactly 0 times.

But yes, regardless of a legit historical context or not, creating a system whereby players will harm themselves/worsen their own long term position to the extent that it lowers the odds of victory for them outright (in contrast with a dogpile on a runaway which has a legit basis) necessarily clamps down on immersion in strategy titles. Having opponents self-harm in a way that creates an active detriment to themselves and the player (while boosting someone else at random, or nobody) is a fast-track to killing immersion without any justification or redeeming value. Creating that system in a way that simultaneously lowers the difficulty and adds tedium and claiming that it adds difficulty though? Yeah, that's worth calling out, just like regency councils in their current implementation are (another immersion-killer from both realism and gameplay perspectives that has no valid justification or historical basis whatsoever).

Mechanics that are both ahistorical AND punish success with tedium (or add tedium at random) have no place in the game and are the most obvious immersion killers.

Sorry but no. Feel free to mod it away (it's in defines) and observe the result though.
 
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Dr. B

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Of course the game feels historical. The content is history. The world, the different nations idea sets, the general setup of nations, developement, it is not a fantasy game, it is based on history. Anyone should see that.

Got to accept a couple of things:
-This is a game, so there must be a lot of simplifications and abstractions to make it work well and be easy to use. That is the genius, to make something that works and is simple and easy enough for people to enjoy. Here Paradox shines.
-The moment you press start, history diverges, and will flow in totally unexpected ways. This should be obvious.
 
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DrLulz

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I care a lot about immersion. The game feels historical enough for me to become immersed. I enjoy EUIV immensily because it is adequately historical (which is not the same as perfectly historical). Ccrucially EUIV feels more far more historical than the main alternative, Civilization V, which is a very good game, but will never give you the feeling of e.g. "marching on Paris", because Paris will be on an Island full of jungle, and the neighbouring civilization will be the Zulu.
 
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happymix91

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Many people don't like game systems like truce and lentgh of war. These are necessary for EU because AIs can't act like human. As Wiz said, you can mod it and observe what will happen.
 

Zwirbaum

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Sorry but no. Feel free to mod it away (it's in defines) and observe the result though.
Wiz what about making that at certain thresholds of WS make length of war modifier decay faster/slower. For example you are winning at war (30% of WS) so it length of war decays twice as fast. (2 points instead of one). Etc.?
 
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JagLover

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Long experience of playing the TW here and clearly EU 1V is far more historically realistic than those games.

I think a number of game mechanics and choices take away a little from the immersion however. It would be nice to see family trees and population sizes as one example.
Historical accuracy is lacking in the lack of adequate modelling of supply constraints and the fact that some states are either far weaker, or far stronger, than they were in history WITHOUT player intervention.

If Commonwealth forms it will never be as weak as it was historically is a very good example. Instead of a decentralised state that could barely muster enough troops to defend essential interests like the Baltic coast we have a behemoth that, on formation, is usually around nearly twice as powerful as Russia.

Supply is just a joke. In a recent game I saw Ming armies in Denmark, that is how messed up the supply dynamics are. You should have bases of operations (not places that grant you access but your lands or allies) and need to maintain a direct link to maintain supply with a penalty the further away you are.
 
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BFTeixeira

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Long experience of playing the TW here and clearly EU 1V is far more historically realistic than those games.

I think a number of game mechanics and choices take away a little from the immersion however. It would be nice to see family trees and population sizes as one example.
Historical accuracy is lacking in the lack of adequate modelling of supply constraints and the fact that some states are either far weaker, or far stronger, than they were in history WITHOUT player intervention.

If Commonwealth forms it will never be as weak as it was historically is a very good example. Instead of a decentralised state that could barely muster enough troops to defend essential interests like the Baltic coast we have a behemoth that, on formation, is usually around nearly twice as powerful as Russia.

Supply is just a joke. In a recent game I saw Ming armies in Denmark, that is how messed up the supply dynamics are. You should have bases of operations (not places that grant you access but your lands or allies) and need to maintain a direct link to maintain supply with a penalty the further away you are.
Totally agree. You can even also mention that those Ming armies in Denmark manage (somehow) to reinforce if they lose some numbers. How's that possible? If your army hasn't got a land connection to a core province which is controled by you, you shouldn't be able to reinforce your armies.
 

BFTeixeira

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Yeah but car simulators are only possible because the designers can account for all of the necessary elements. All you need is physics for the vehicles and an AI that represents other cars and pedestrians. In contrast...

History is all of reality, and reality is too complex to be simulated. Even just the parts that are necessary for historical geopolitics.
There are so many events and facts that historically happened, that no one ever thought to be possible. I don't know how can they be simulated in-game. One of the problems in the game is the snowball effect. But history shows us that when a nation begins to grow, it's a question of time to fall spectacularly. You have some battles that you ask yourself how an army outnumbered 1-5 trashes it's enemy. You have nations that grew immensely in power just by inheritance laws and strikes of luck of all sort of things. It's just too many variables to consider.
 

gajop

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The less you know about the game, the more historical/realistic it feels.
The moment you come to understand its quirks you quickly lose the immersion and it feels like a game rather than a simulator.
 
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WeissRaben

Gian Galeazzo Visconti #1 Fanboy.
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Mechanically no, flavourwise yes.
Not even that, really. Events that should give "flavour" mostly pop up from nowhere, citing people who never existed doing things that never happened. It breaks immersion, for me. It's a fun game, but it's not historical nor immersive.