Does the Form Portugal decision make sense?

[migdeu19]

Alas, you're right. Unfortunately we don't have infinite time and resources, and there was a desire to touch up this decision specifically with Royal Court and Fate of Iberia, but both had other priorities or complications.

I managed to touch up the Outremer culture for Royal Court only because Outremer culture isn't tied to any historical characters in the database while Portuguese, English, Norman, Swedish, etc. all either exist in the history files or in the 1066 start date so changing them would be much more complex. It's something I'd like to change, but it's a matter of time unfortunately.

As long is matter of time, I think we as players could wait, as some other big cultural reworks had been done previously in ck2 with I belive quite popular result, but we need to think that changes are intended instead still making deeper the problem (alas creating new characters of non-existing cultures/problematic ones etc.). By the way, in this cultural reworks maybe should be observed the option of adding a latin-iberian mozarabic culture, while reducing the extent of the arab-iberian andalusian culture. As well there is a few events were iberian-romance is called as castillian (while of course galicia-portuguese, leones etc. have nothing to do, castillian/spanish come from a "dialect/variety" of navarro-aragonese (culture that's not in the game) called in scholarly circles "riojano-castellano", whith big aquisitions from vasque, langue doc and arabic that had not that big influence in other ibero-romance languages, so please take a look at this of puting castillian as the language of leoneses and galicians.)

 

[dannazgui]

It does, although the Royal Line was french, the first one anyway. Most the "portuguese" back then came from the north portugal.
When the conquests begun, crusaders from england end up helping and seetling on the new conquered areas.
Portugue is a mixing of languages and cultures that were influenced by "Spanish" courts and French nobility

 

[migdeu19]

It does, although the Royal Line was french, the first one anyway. Most the "portuguese" back then came from the north portugal.
When the conquests begun, crusaders from england end up helping and seetling on the new conquered areas.
Portugue is a mixing of languages and cultures that were influenced by "Spanish" courts and French nobility

At that point are not "spanish", and Portugal is not but a galician country, despite having english, french, mozarab, arab etc. influences, as Galiza had, Leon had, Aragón, Navarre and all the other peninsular realms had too. There is not any diferentiating points in that influences.

 

[apollo1989vieten]

As long is matter of time, I think we as players could wait, as some other big cultural reworks had been done previously in ck2 with I belive quite popular result, but we need to think that changes are intended instead still making deeper the problem (alas creating new characters of non-existing cultures/problematic ones etc.). By the way, in this cultural reworks maybe should be observed the option of adding a latin-iberian mozarabic culture, while reducing the extent of the arab-iberian andalusian culture. As well there is a few events were iberian-romance is called as castillian (while of course galicia-portuguese, leones etc. have nothing to do, castillian/spanish come from a "dialect/variety" of navarro-aragonese (culture that's not in the game) called in scholarly circles "riojano-castellano", whith big aquisitions from vasque, langue doc and arabic that had not that big influence in other ibero-romance languages, so please take a look at this of puting castillian as the language of leoneses and galicians.)

I would also like to mention it makes no sense for an event that refers to a language not of the character’s culture to be used. Why is my Czech king thinking about using the Castilian dialect of Iberian vulgar for his remembrance?

Unlike Norman culture, the conditions which Portuguese culture may be formed in game need to change in game. If foreigner allies assist in the creation of Portugal, maybe make Portuguese a hybrid of the native cultures and the ruler’s biggest foreign ally culture. The default tenets would change based on which culture’s ethos the player chooses to adopt.

 

[Meka66]

Saying you don't have infinite time and resources baffles the mind. If you can't properly depict the region you're making an entire DLC about, perhaps rethink your release strategy. An Iberian DLC shouldn't neglect 1 of the 2 countries that currently populate the peninsula. The same happened in EU4 with Golden Century, where Portugal got shafted in favor of focus on the Spanish kingdoms.

Hold up, not having the time to update one old decision to use new mechanics of another DLC is not reason enough to cancel the entire expansion.

Like I wanna update these old decisions to use the new mechanics, but the realities of game development mean that other things get priority. Had we decided to focus on this one thing instead of something else, that something else would now have a thread on the forums asking about it.

For the EU4 thing, we are different teams. Completely different people made that expansion, and I can't speak for their decision making process.

I'd much rather have the devs admit they just didn't realize somehow (which would still be terrible but perhaps excusable to a certain degree)

But that would be a lie, I did realise this is something that could have been done, other things just got priority, and that is beyond my control.

Ones where Paradox admits that they were aware something wasn't up to snuff

Now let's make something quite clear, I am not Mr Paradox. We're not a hive-mind, and my forum account isn't the official company account for making announcements and stuff. Lord knows I wouldn't be able to write half the stuff I do if I were.

I am a designer on Crusader Kings, one of several. When I use words like "I" and "me", I am talking literally. I personally want to update these things, that doesn't mean the entire company or development team agrees that this is something we should do. When you reply to me on the forums, you are replying to me personally as a designer on CK3, not Paradox as a company.

Like if you all want me to engage here, answer questions, talk about our process, read through suggestions and ideas, you need to understand I am just a guy on the team.

 

[Meka66]

Could we at least get an option to form it as a king?

I'd like that too, it's one of those decisions that has been around for a long time, and at some point I'd like to do a broad sweep of them and make changes where it makes sense.

 

[FishieFan]

Hold up, not having the time to update one old decision to use new mechanics of another DLC is not reason enough to cancel the entire expansion.

Fates of Iberia reworked Aragonese culture so you could pick various aspects of it, it added a Basque pagan faith with modifiable doctrines, it added a kingdom of toledo which only mozarabs (not muslims) can make for some reason, it added a fantasy kingdom of baleo-tyrneehia rather than do something laudabiller for Aragon taking medittarean islands, it added a kingdom of the canaries as well as turn canarians into med vikings rather than the isolated people they were. Adoptionism was added as a playable faith with customisable aspects. The king list for the Visigoths was updated. Yet in this time no one was able to update the required duchies for Portugal or let you change its cultural formation.
Fates of iberia then received a 1.1 update to add alot more jewish content to the dlc. But nothing on Portugal was added in this 1.1

Like I wanna update these old decisions to use the new mechanics, but the realities of game development mean that other things get priority. Had we decided to focus on this one thing instead of something else, that something else would now have a thread on the forums asking about it.

If it was not adding one of the things above, then we might not have seen threads complaining about it

For the EU4 thing, we are different teams. Completely different people made that expansion, and I can't speak for their decision making process.

But that would be a lie, I did realise this is something that could have been done, other things just got priority, and that is beyond my control.

Now let's make something quite clear, I am not Mr Paradox. We're not a hive-mind, and my forum account isn't the official company account for making announcements and stuff. Lord knows I wouldn't be able to write half the stuff I do if I were.

I am a designer on Crusader Kings, one of several. When I use words like "I" and "me", I am talking literally. I personally want to update these things, that doesn't mean the entire company or development team agrees that this is something we should do. When you reply to me on the forums, you are replying to me personally as a designer on CK3, not Paradox as a company.

When we reply to you, you have the "Paradox Staff" tag on your account, so far many, you will be the most official interaction people have with the company

Like if you all want me to engage here, answer questions, talk about our process, read through suggestions and ideas, you need to understand I am just a guy on the team. I come from modding, and it's kind of amazing how differently you get treated as a modder vs a developer. As a modder, you're a human making a cool thing that people like. As a developer, you're just some evil avatar of the company who didn't do the exact thing that this one person wanted and for that you're a greedy subhuman monster who deserves nothing but scorn and abuse. It's kinda wild tbh, and being talked to like that does not make me want to engage or bring feedback forward to the rest of the team. You can downvote this post with disagrees if you want to, but this is the reality of the situation and if this is the way I get talked to, I'm just gonna go back to not engaging on the forums because it's literally not part of my job requirements.

Modders long had the reputation of being a part of the community as fellow gamers adding content for free before patreon and paypal donations became regular. Developers are part of the company and you pay for their content to access

 

[Vityviktor]

Not to mention you must control EVERY historical Portuguese duchy (Portucale, Coimbra, Beja and Algarve) in order to unlock de decision, which is absurd considering half of this territory was controlled when the kingdom was actually founded. And of course, the choices for Portuguese culture traditions are pretty weird.

IMO, you should only need two duchies (Portucale and Coimbra) and get claims in the other two, and maybe add a certain era or innovation trigger so the thing could happen around 1100s (like historically did), but I'm not sure about the last one.

By the way, this would also be a nice opportunity to revise the "Unite the Spanish Thrones" decision, which is way overpowered and prevents further Castile and Leon splits like historically happened in 1157 (death of Alfonso VII). I would rather have two sepparate decisions about combining León and Galicia (especially if the later is smaller because Portugal already exists as a De Jure Kingdom, thus) and auto-drifting Toledo into Castile. That way you would have a more historical realm consolidation. And then, maybe, another "combine Leon and Castile" for the Late Middle Ages (1200>) or something like that (union of the realms within the Crown of Castile).

 

[apollo1989vieten]

People on the forum can be toxic sometimes, but the Portuguese culture should have been revised based on the fact that in game actions would have created a different culture than what happened in real life. You’re hybridizing several different culture. Crusaders who settled the land and the native cultures.

The required duchies match real life Portugal. Even though it was recognized by the Pope as a kingdom in the later half of the 12th century as a kingdom, it really wasn’t much of a kingdom until it reached the southern coast. I would compare this stage to the petty kingdoms of Norway, England, and Ireland. After the Reconquista for modern day Portugal’s borders was complete, Portuguese culture really began to take shape.

 

[FishieFan]

People on the forum can be toxic sometimes, but the Portuguese culture should have been revised based on the fact that in game actions would have created a different culture than what happened in real life. You’re hybridizing several different culture. Crusaders who settled the land and the native cultures.

The required duchies match real life Portugal. Even though it was recognized by the Pope as a kingdom in the later half of the 12th century as a kingdom, it really wasn’t much of a kingdom until it reached the southern coast. I would compare this stage to the petty kingdoms of Norway, England, and Ireland.

A kingdom is a kingdom. Navarre and Brittany get to be single duchy kingdoms. Aragon gets to be a two duchy kingdom. Why shouldnt you be able to declare Portugal when it was historically declared, as ck2 allowed

After the Reconquista for modern day Portugal’s borders was complete, Portuguese culture really began to take shape.

It would still need the Atlantic Islands to be modern Portugal

 

[heliostellar]

Not to mention you must control EVERY historical Portuguese duchy (Portucale, Coimbra, Beja and Algarve) in order to unlock de decision, which is absurd considering half of this territory was controlled when the kingdom was actually founded. And of course, the choices for Portuguese culture traditions are pretty weird.

Agreed. I would think you could tie it to the Iberian Struggle. The Duke of Portugal could automatically create the kingdom for instance if the you enter the Hostility phase, which is kinda what historically happened. Only kinda though, since historically it was the COUNT of Portugal that was proclaimed king with an assist from the Pope.

Afonso I of Portugal - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

 

[apollo1989vieten]

A kingdom is a kingdom. Navarre and Brittany get to be single duchy kingdoms. Aragon gets to be a two duchy kingdom. Why shouldnt you be able to declare Portugal when it was historically declared, as ck2 allowed

It would still need the Atlantic Islands to be modern Portugal

Navarre has two small de jure duchies. And both of those kingdoms had a historic precedent. I am not going to argue about when you should be able to declare Portugal a kingdom. The area of the early Portugal kingdom is de jure part of the Kingdom of Galicia in game. Declaring early really makes little sense to me because you can create, claim, or usurp the kingdom. Also, the rest of continental Portugal would have to de jure drift into Portugal in order to get rid of not rightful liege penalties. Your argument is to change the decision based on historical recognition by the Pope. Doing that makes the achievement of forming Portugal ridiculously easy. Those are what I see as both sides of the argument to change the decision requirements.

I wouldn’t really say the Atlantic islands had an impact on Portuguese culture. I was more focused on continental Portugal when I said that. The Atlantic islands are more like colonies.

 

[apollo1989vieten]

Agreed. I would think you could tie it to the Iberian Struggle. The Duke of Portugal could automatically create the kingdom for instance if the you enter the Hostility phase, which is kinda what historically happened. Only kinda though, since historically it was the COUNT of Portugal that was proclaimed king with an assist from the Pope.

Afonso I of Portugal - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

The game tends to make counts that had historically the power of a duke dukes. William the conqueror’s father-in-law was really the count not Duke of Flanders.

The decision conditions need to be same for both the base version and DLC. It wasn’t until the count got independence that he was able to style himself as king.

 

[FishieFan]

Navarre has two small de jure duchies. And both of those kingdoms had a historic precedent. I am not going to argue about when you should be able to declare Portugal a kingdom. The area of the early Portugal kingdom is de jure part of the Kingdom of Galicia in game. Declaring early really makes little sense to me because you can create, claim, or usurp the kingdom. Also, the rest of continental Portugal would have to de jure drift into Portugal in order to get rid of not rightful liege penalties. Your argument is to change the decision based on historical recognition by the Pope. Doing that makes the achievement of forming Portugal ridiculously easy. Those are what I see as both sides of the argument to change the decision requirements.

Have you tried gaining independence? Its ezpz then you just do a clash or some holy wars into the land needed. Holy wars are a bit harder these days but its so easy to get allies in this game that its still max 50 years game

I wouldn’t really say the Atlantic islands had an impact on Portuguese culture. I was more focused on continental Portugal when I said that. The Atlantic islands are more like colonies.

Their population may be low but its still modern Portugal and so modern Portugals borders

 

[apollo1989vieten]

Have you tried gaining independence? Its ezpz then you just do a clash or some holy wars into the land needed. Holy wars are a bit harder these days but its so easy to get allies in this game that its still max 50 years game

Their population may be low but its still modern Portugal and so modern Portugals borders

When I got the achievement before fate of Iberia, I did just that. But it is more of a challenge than just a simple independence faction.
An achievement for forming Portugal should be harder than just “start as the 1066 Duke of Portugal, then get independence.”

I wasn’t considering non continental holdings of Portugal when I made that comment. The impact on medieval Portuguese is non existent, so I don’t get why you are making a big deal about me forgetting about them.

 

[FishieFan]

When I got the achievement before fate of Iberia, I did just that. But it is more of a challenge than just a simple independence faction.
An achievement for forming Portugal should be harder than just “start as the 1066 Duke of Portugal, then get independence.”

Look at the wiki to see how many are so easily got

I wasn’t considering non continental holdings of Portugal when I made that comment. The impact on medieval Portuguese is non existent, so I don’t get why you are making a big deal about me forgetting about them.

Of course islands colonised after the mediveal era wont have an impact on mediveal Portugal. But saying that you need modern Portugals borders to become the Kingdom then disagreeing with signifiance of part of modern borders seems odds

 

[apollo1989vieten]

Look at the wiki to see how many are so easily got

Of course islands colonised after the mediveal era wont have an impact on mediveal Portugal. But saying that you need modern Portugals borders to become the Kingdom then disagreeing with signifiance of part of modern borders seems odds

I would implore you to drop your trolling of me. I am trying to make arguments against changing the requirements.

 

[FishieFan]

I would implore you to drop your trolling of me. I am trying to make arguments against changing the requirements.

Then expand upon your arguments, besides "oh no de jure drift" and "navarre & brittany exist at game start, Portugal doesnt", especially as you agreed with me how easy Last Count First King is

 

[apollo1989vieten]

Then expand upon your arguments, besides "oh no de jure drift" and "navarre & brittany exist at game start, Portugal doesnt", especially as you agreed with me how easy Last Count First King is

You should stop being a troll.

your arguments basically boil down to “existed in real life, so should exist in game”. I am trying to play the other side of the argument.

Edit: if you want more reason why not to change: the reqonquista of Portugal wasn’t completed until the capture of the Algarve, some 70ish years after the Pope recognized Portugal as having the status of a kingdom.

 

[Lucododosor]

Let's backtrack a bit to keep the discussion civil, guys. Thanks