Does the DLC Model Mean HOI4 Will Get Worse Over Time?

[Mr_Dimento]

I find that incredibly hard to imagine someone saying. That said making the AI more difficult to play against would definitely be an issue for some players. Remember that 40% of players are on easy or very easy difficulty settings. I dont remember if it was Tiger or MTG but we had quite a reaction from players who got rolled by the ai so its something I take seriously.

I don't think its making the AI particularly more difficult to play against, but for the AI to make more meaningful decisions, or attempt to make better decisions at least. For example: A communist Bulgaria, or at least nearly communist, joining a fascist faction. That kind of stuff @podcat

 

[Dlin369]

Rolled over by the AI? The AI that can't even push through a single tile on a frontline spanning half of europe? The same AI that can't even push two infantry divisions? Are we even playing the same game?

The ai isn't that bad relatively speaking with its use of infantry for pushing -> if you go against the AI with just infantry they can put up a decent fight. It can launching pinning attacks, evacuate from breakthroughs, and even get some encirclements. The problem is the AI doesn't really know how to utilize tanks to their advantage the way players can - the AI treats them like just another infantry division to be used in a broadfront offensive. I hope they teach the AI how to use tanks better with Barbarossa, and use infantry mainly to hold and push only in particularly favorable conditions like a player would

 

[cotne22]

The ai isn't that bad relatively speaking with its use of infantry for pushing -> if you go against the AI with just infantry they can put up a decent fight. It can launching pinning attacks, evacuate from breakthroughs, and even get some encirclements. The problem is the AI doesn't really know how to utilize tanks to their advantage the way players can - the AI treats them like just another infantry division to be used in a broadfront offensive. I hope they teach the AI how to use tanks better with Barbarossa, and use infantry mainly to hold and push only in particularly favorable conditions like a player would

Sometimes the AI is indeed smart, but other times it gets 15 divisions encircled in a single tile and does nothing to stop it. Don't even get me started how many times it repeatedly sent unescorted troop convoys straight into submarine infested waters. Th AI is better than it was 5 years ago, but that's not much of an achievement.
I even managed to encircle AI troops that I'm not at war with

 

[WSnova]

Rolled over by the AI? The AI that can't even push through a single tile on a frontline spanning half of europe? The same AI that can't even push two infantry divisions? Are we even playing the same game?

How many hours do you have in this game? In other Paradox games?

We tend to forget that not all people have thousands of hours worth of experience. Even on the console side we tend to forget that there are people that need to actually look down and see where their buttons are.

I´d say the vast majority of HOI4 players fall more into the category of playing to for fun from time to time, don´t know/care much about the mechanics under the hood. So I can see the AI being difficult for them. Especially since there are a lot of counterintuitive mechanics in the game(EG: Lets add art, aa and at to a division, it should make it stronger, right?!)

Also lets not forget that an AI that plays the game well its not necessarily an AI that is fun to play against. And of course ask 100 people what makes an AI good and they will give you 100 different opinions.

As for the OP, I don´t think it will get worse with time. But they need to be careful in the scope of what they want to change and how much they want to support

 

[7163D]

Rolled over by the AI? The AI that can't even push through a single tile on a frontline spanning half of europe? The same AI that can't even push two infantry divisions? Are we even playing the same game?

I my first game with US, i had attacked Mexic... and be smached by his army. Reason? Bad researchs, bad division template, bad industry, very bad micro, no air force, no good general, no military advisor...

HOI4 is a very complexe game, it is easy for a beginner to do some very odd mistakes, and you can loose a game for 2 years olds mistake.

At this day, with 700h solo game and reading all the wiki i don't qualify myself as expert. (absolutely not) And i'm sure that a very great amount of player haven't enougth time (or motivation) to reach my (no very good) level...

 

[cotne22]

Spoiler

How many hours do you have in this game? In other Paradox games?

We tend to forget that not all people have thousands of hours worth of experience. Even on the console side we tend to forget that there are people that need to actually look down and see where their buttons are.

I´d say the vast majority of HOI4 players fall more into the category of playing to for fun from time to time, don´t know/care much about the mechanics under the hood. So I can see the AI being difficult for them. Especially since there are a lot of counterintuitive mechanics in the game(EG: Lets add art, aa and at to a division, it should make it stronger, right?!)

Also lets not forget that an AI that plays the game well its not necessarily an AI that is fun to play against. And of course ask 100 people what makes an AI good and they will give you 100 different opinions.

As for the OP, I don´t think it will get worse with time. But they need to be careful in the scope of what they want to change and how much they want to support

I my first game with US, i had attacked Mexic... and be smached by his army. Reason? Bad researchs, bad division template, bad industry, very bad micro, no air force, no good general, no military advisor...

HOI4 is a very complexe game, it is easy for a beginner to do some very odd mistakes, and you can loose a game for 2 years olds mistake.

At this day, with 700h solo game and reading all the wiki i don't qualify myself as expert. (absolutely not) And i'm sure that a very great amount of player haven't enougth time (or motivation) to reach my (no very good) level...

You're probably right, but I had to vent a bit. I'm still upset about puppets having the audacity to refuse transferring control over territory they can't even garrison properly. "You would get too much territory compared to contribution" tells me my puppet Czechoslovakia who controls half of Germany that they didn't even participate in taking. I know that diplo AI is different to combat AI, but the later is far from perfect. Experienced player or someone who enjoys playing casually on civilian, one thing everyone should agree on is that the AI shouldn't send tens of unescorted divisions into waters they know are full of submarines and should be able to properly upgrade their ships.

 

[safe-keeper]

I had the same experience with Steel Division, actually. I played the US campaign and found it too easy, but then I read all the comments and forum posts from people saying the campaign and even the tutorial were way too hard, and I realized how much knowledge of tactics that I had internalized from previous strategy games, including the Wargame series, which was the spiritual predecessor of SD.

 

[Simon_9732495]

I'd say the DLC model means that HOI4 will get better and better over time, because they can spend time polishing the game while they add or improve stuff and still earn money.

Alternative model would be releasing a sequel every 2 years, HOI5, HOI6, HOI7 where they abandon the old game, throw everything away and redo it under another angle:

• HOI5 for mobile devices
• HOI6 directed to a younger audience (childrens HOI)
• HOI7 no grand strategy anymore but panzer driving with VR goggles...

 

[podcat]

I don't think its making the AI particularly more difficult to play against, but for the AI to make more meaningful decisions, or attempt to make better decisions at least. For example: A communist Bulgaria, or at least nearly communist, joining a fascist faction. That kind of stuff @podcat

Oh yeah for sure, those things improve everyones game. Reducing stupidity is good. I meant more things like say AI doing focused encirclements with 40w armor. A lot of players would not be able to deal with that so I think it would simply be turned off on the 2 lower difficulties etc

• HOI7 no grand strategy anymore but panzer driving with VR goggles...

We both know you'd buy it

 

[Dlin369]

Oh yeah for sure, those things improve everyones game. Reducing stupidity is good. I meant more things like say AI doing focused encirclements with 40w armor. A lot of players would not be able to deal with that so I think it would simply be turned off on the 2 lower difficulties etc


We both know you'd buy it

Are there any plans to teach the AI how to utilize tanks a bit better, like with focused encirclements? Maybe not with 40 widths, but perhaps with dedicated tank division

 

[podcat]

Are there any plans to teach the AI how to utilize tanks a bit better, like with focused encirclements? Maybe not with 40 widths, but perhaps with dedicated tank division

I have had such plans since 2015 but its proved pretty difficult and I wouldnt dare say anythign about it until I had it working honestly.

 

[safe-keeper]

In my (layperson) eyes, the AI could actually be improved a lot with just some simple rules. Like, "leave some divisions to guard victory points behind the frontline".

One of my biggest pet peeves with the battle planner is that it could send a division from one place to the next (like if I reassign an army to a new sector), but then while it's en-route, the enemy advances and suddenly a province in the path of the division is occupied by enemy forces, which the division proceeds to attack. Flagging a division with a move order so that when it bumped into an enemy province, it just drew a new move route rather than engaging in combat, would be a great micro-reducing QoL improvement.

 

[cotne22]

In my (layperson) eyes, the AI could actually be improved a lot with just some simple rules. Like, "leave some divisions to guard victory points behind the frontline".

One of my biggest pet peeves with the battle planner is that it could send a division from one place to the next (like if I reassign an army to a new sector), but then while it's en-route, the enemy advances and suddenly a province in the path of the division is occupied by enemy forces, which the division proceeds to attack. Flagging a division with a move order so that when it bumped into an enemy province, it just drew a new move route rather than engaging in combat, would be a great micro-reducing QoL improvement.

Just remembering this gives me PTSD from playing the USSR in the total war mod. When the Germans were rapidly advancing I was forced to reduce game speed to 1 just to stop my divisions doing suicide attacks.

 

[safe-keeper]

Just remembering this gives me PTSD from playing the USSR in the total war mod. When the Germans were rapidly advancing I was forced to reduce game speed to 1 just to stop my divisions doing suicide attacks.

I'm playing as the Soviets right now, and it's driving me nuts, too. That, and how setting a fallback line for them makes them trudge towards the line, stopping whenever a pursuing division catches up with them. I wish there was a "full retreat" order you could give to force them to use strategic redeployment and to attempt to disengage from whatever combat they ended up in.

 

[Spyseand]

I find that incredibly hard to imagine someone saying. That said making the AI more difficult to play against would definitely be an issue for some players. Remember that 40% of players are on easy or very easy difficulty settings. I dont remember if it was Tiger or MTG but we had quite a reaction from players who got rolled by the ai so its something I take seriously.

Not gonna claim to know a single thing about ai coding (because I don't), but wouldn't it make sense then to have improved ai on harder difficulties? I feel like just buffing ai/nerfing player based on difficulty is a sort of cheap way to balance difficulties. Prime example being a game like Civ 5 where harder difficulties just mean the AI spawns with settlers/workers/etc. which doesn't actually make the AI actually more tough or smart, its just artificial difficulty.

 

[Kazakk]

I find that incredibly hard to imagine someone saying. That said making the AI more difficult to play against would definitely be an issue for some players. Remember that 40% of players are on easy or very easy difficulty settings. I dont remember if it was Tiger or MTG but we had quite a reaction from players who got rolled by the ai so its something I take seriously.

But that also means 60% of the players are playing in the higher difficulties. The buffs on lower difficulties could be simply increased for those 40%
The AI should be as strong as possible

 

[goodcigar]

I really like playing against the AI in AI War and AI War 2. Those guys know how to design competent and fun AI opponents.

 

[Zhein]

Oh yeah for sure, those things improve everyones game. Reducing stupidity is good. I meant more things like say AI doing focused encirclements with 40w armor. A lot of players would not be able to deal with that so I think it would simply be turned off on the 2 lower difficulties etc

Not encirclement with 40w armor, but at least, I don't know :
- Troops on ports
- Garrison on VP
- Rapid response force in dangerous areas (UK/India/maybe Egypt for the allies, France/Italy/Central Europe for the Axis) so that just in case that there is another front that opens up, the AI just doesn't immediately collapse by having to pull out half of another front

Also :
- Not going over supplies (but i guess Barbarossa will change that)
- Getting at least better at not getting encircled.


It feels to me that the AI doesn't value regions or anything and is just throwing troops wherever it can, then is in panic as soon as a front opens up, because it doesn't have any reserves.

 

[Znail]

Oh yeah for sure, those things improve everyones game. Reducing stupidity is good. I meant more things like say AI doing focused encirclements with 40w armor. A lot of players would not be able to deal with that so I think it would simply be turned off on the 2 lower difficulties etc


We both know you'd buy it

I think reducing stupidity is the main thing needed for the AI, there is no need to make it brilliant. Just make it understand the things that are already in the game, this is a larger issue with DLC's as it tends to not understand the extra features like intrigue, ship editor, new naval combat etc. The main problem I can see is that it would perhaps anoy some if such fixes are part of a DLC, but I can say directly that I am fine with it as it's far more important that it's done then that it's passed over due to not generating any money. I guess that also solves the issue for those that don't want the AI to get stronger as they can pass on the DLC.

 

[Poopfaust]

How about to extend HOI 4's life and DLCS - PDX buys out the Black Ice, KR, and Old World Blues mods and makes them official DLCs with full PDX support. With OWB alone, man, you would expand on that for like 10 DLCs!! Not trying to be funny.