Does Sure footing + bulwark break the AI in 1.3?

[JackFrost]

You need to live up to your namesake...

Well, I did immediately figure out the clearly best build in the game.

@HBS_CaptKerberos - hey man, if you made a lot of the maps (noticed your sig) - just wanted to say that I think your map design is extraordinarily good. A lot of the reason I'm still playing is that the maps are just excellent, each interesting and different. Objectives and stuff are great, but so is just the general topography. Really top tier work!

 

[Havamal]

For the record I'm running all 4+ skull missions with a lance of mediums and not taking enough damage to get structure (unless I make a big mistake). I'm usually seeing a mix of heavy and assault. I just run all ace pilot and bulwark ATM. I have a master tactician that I swap in if I run a heavy to keep initiative at 3. Although I think running all ace pilot is currently better.

I don't think I'm a super elite player, I just max out my evasion pips and maul one target at a time when they have no DR.

+1
Evasive strategies have always worked at every difficulty level.

Myself and others have been utilising them this whole time. I didn't really use bulwark before 1.3, only evasion, los control, and turn order. Often didn't get IS damage either.

People just becoming acclimated to an evasive strategy probably just need some time to adjust.

It gets better people, I promise.
You'll find what works for you.

 

[JackFrost]

+1
Evasive strategies have always worked at every difficulty level.

Myself and others have been utilising them this whole time. I didn't really use bulwark before 1.3, only evasion, los control, and turn order. Often didn't get IS damage either.

People just becoming acclimated to an evasive strategy probably just need some time to adjust.

It gets better people, I promise.
You'll find what works for you.

For the record I mostly ran evasion before 1.3 also, it's just now with bulwark its much, much more effective.

In 1.2 evasion/bulwark was actually pretty good when it didn't synergize... now its insane.

 

[Havamal]

For the record I mostly ran evasion before 1.3 also, it's just now with bulwark its much, much more effective.

In 1.2 evasion/bulwark was actually pretty good when it didn't synergize... now its insane.

Of course.
Evasion and bulwark are complimentary now.

 

[Amechwarrior]

If you can run a test (non-ironman save so you can just revert and delete)

Try the same tactics but removing any To-Hit Gyros for a mission or two but otherwise playing the same. I wonder if you are right on the line of where the AI thinks it isn't worth it to fire whole hog.

 

[Confector Tyrannis]

I dunno... Multishot + Master Tactician seems to be the most powerful combo (for me) The earlier initiative leaves me with more Reserve options to help force them to come to me, and multishot just so i can tag that one weapon on the high evasion pips enemy and unload the rest on my primary target.... by the time i get to the last pilot in my firing line that high evasion opfor is usually debuffed back down to no pips or just one pip, making them an easy target again.

Half my lance is ALWAYS this combo, the others i flavor to taste or experiment with but i always make sure half my lance has the ability to hit half the field of battle at once, and choose when to do it.

 

[JackFrost]

If you can run a test (non-ironman save so you can just revert and delete)

Try the same tactics but removing any To-Hit Gyros for a mission or two but otherwise playing the same. I wonder if you are right on the line of where the AI thinks it isn't worth it to fire whole hog.

In the current career mode I'm running, I don't have any gyros or anything. I just have JJs + sure foot + bulwark. It's not hard to keep evasion pips up and since standing in cover is 40 DR you always have 40DR.

What made me notice was the fact that enemy mechs almost always had zero heat. They never registered a good target, so they never unloaded and always had near zero heat levels.

 

[Knotz]

I've seen this even before when I took my Firestarter into places a light reeeaaalllyyy should probably not be, the AI often seems to decide "Eh, not worth it" and shoot something else only to regret it shortly thereafter. Personally, I don't see the problem. To consistently get this requires concerted effort wrt build, equipment and which mech you're choosing to use. It feels like I tried to do something particular with a build and the game actually acknolwedges it in a tangible sense. Often this comes at a cost because, at least in my case, if there's an enemy who sensor locks or you've overextended yourself and exposed yourself to melee you're in deep shit. It's a risk/reward thing.

Ofc, if you're intentionally cheesing it then I don't know what to tell you. I would like this to remain because it's one of the few things, possibly the only thing, that makes playing a light fun even into the late game for me.

Also, I haven't even gotten around to stacking lightfoot with the new bulwark. I've been wondering whether it'd make for good synergy so that's nice to hear.

 

[ronhatch]

After the bulwark rework, I've been essentially running 100% sure footing + bulwark since they now stack nicely and reduce incoming damage by an absurd amount.

This combo is so effective that I'm starting to think it partially breaks the AI. I've noticed that it's very rare for the AI to aggressively use its weapons since the 3-4 evasion pips plus 40% dr from cover and bulwark is so massive. Instead it seems to often hold back (seemingly breaking evasion pips while retaining heat).

The problem is that you can consistently stack all this defense at more or less all times, and since the AI won't aggressively use its weapons this acts as an additional layer of damage resistance. Effectively, by stacking too much evasion + dr - you gain significant extra "effective armor" by making it so the AI won't alpha strike very often.

I'm not sure what the deal is, but the AI is really not capable of dealing with bulwark + sure footing, and has seemingly not been modified to revolve around the game dominating power of bulwark (in neither taking advantage of it by standing in cover at 100% all times, nor fully being able to handle it when the player is using bulwark+sure footing on all guys).

The combo is so powerful that I've just stopped using anything else.

The AI has been firing single weapons at high-evasion targets from day one. Regardless of Braced status (which it was always possible to stack on occasion with Vigilance).

Sounds to me like you're discovering evasion's hidden power now that bulwark no longer requires giving it up. Which is probably a good thing, even if the combo ends up getting nerfed someday.

 

[Amechwarrior]

In the current career mode I'm running, I don't have any gyros or anything. I just have JJs + sure foot + bulwark. It's not hard to keep evasion pips up and since standing in cover is 40 DR you always have 40DR.

What made me notice was the fact that enemy mechs almost always had zero heat. They never registered a good target, so they never unloaded and always had near zero heat levels.

What difficulty level of contracts are you at? I'm wondering what range of pilots you are facing to see if we might be able to figure out the exact to-hit numbers.

 

[JackFrost]

3-4 skull missions on hard difficulty setting. I'm running 3 griffins and a shadow hawk or 2 griffin (ace pilot + bulwark), shadow hawk and orion (master tac + bulwark). Not sure which is better. Headshots are generally the biggest problem, but melee is also dangerous. Normal weapon shots arent really a threat since they can't generally put out enough damage.

This is career mode, the lance composition is just kinda what I found. Bulwark + sure foot is easily a no brainer in career mode early on since you're fully on light/medium for a long time. This isn't trying to intentionally cheese at all.

I started doing 3 skull missions when I still had a panther and jenner (two lights), but the fights took like an hour so I scaled back until I had good mediums and could replace the starter mechs.

 

[Kereminde]

Endgame Lances with Sure Footing ruined the meta of 'spam LRM knockdowns' and if they have Bulwark too it becomes . . . problematic.

However.

It does prevent Bulwark AIs from just turning into turrets. Also killing with direct fire at long range works absolutely okay - bring your AC/2s and plenty of ammo, it's a target shoot.

Pity the AC/20 sounds muted now. I'd use that.

 

[Prussian Havoc]

@HBS_CaptKerberos, I really like how the Ability Revision has augmented and enhanced both Single and Multiplayer strategies and game-play. :bow:

One suggestion would be that when the AI’s decision process lead it to fire just a single weapon, this is fine if the remaining Heat Sinks are fully engaged sinking past Heat accumulation.

But if firing a single weapon leaves Heat Sinks unused... no “Reasonable MechWarrior” would allow a Heat Sink to lie unused. In my opinion additional weapons should be fired up to the point where Heat would begin to build up if another weapon were fired.

In this manner the “Reasonable MechWarrior” would have an empty Heat Bar (preserving a cool Mech for future action), but have engaged as much Damage Generation Potential as he could in the current Turn.

And the AI should always strive IMO to at least be as capable as a “Reasonable MechWarrior.” : )

 

[Kereminde]

And the AI should always strive IMO to at least be as capable as a “Reasonable MechWarrior.” : )

Or it could play like Jackal and push all the buttons.

 

[Amechwarrior]

@HBS_CaptKerberos, I really like how the Ability Revision has augmented and enhanced both Single and Multiplayer strategies and game-play. :bow:

One suggestion would be that when the AI’s decision process lead it to fire just a single weapon, this is fine if the remaining Heat Sinks are fully engaged sinking past Heat accumulation.

But if firing a single weapon leaves Heat Sinks unused... no “Reasonable MechWarrior” would allow a Heat Sink to lie unused. In my opinion additional weapons should be fired up to the point where Heat would begin to build up if another weapon were fired.

In this manner the “Reasonable MechWarrior” would have an empty Heat Bar (preserving a cool Mech for future action), but have engaged as much Damage Generation Potential as he could in the current Turn.

And the AI should always strive IMO to at least be as capable as a “Reasonable MechWarrior.” : )

Maybe instead of "single conservative shot" it could do as you say, but also lean to energy weapons over ammo using ones. This would keep units like the HBK and KGC from blowing their very limited ammo stores on poor targets even if they have the heat to handle it. I figure the "single shot" was the most reliable and simplest method to go with to prevent wasteful ammo usage. If they wanted to get real special, have it lean to energy, then missile, then AC as heat and ammo allow. With it also weighing the % of ammo left per weapon, but that's getting much more complicated. This would allow units like the KGC or AS7 to "spray and pray" with the lasers and missiles while conserving the AC/20 ammo for better shots with less refire penalties as a bonus. However, a ammo % limiter threshold would be needed for low ammo missile boats like the TBT and CPLT, which is why they probably just settled on "single conservative shot" for the time being.

 

[Prussian Havoc]

Maybe instead of "single conservative shot" it could do as you say, but also lean to energy weapons over ammo using ones. This would keep units like the HBK and KGC from blowing their very limited ammo stores on poor targets even if they have the heat to handle it. I figure the "single shot" was the most reliable and simplest method to go with to prevent wasteful ammo usage. If they wanted to get real special, have it lean to energy, then missile, then AC as heat and ammo allow. With it also weighing the % of ammo left per weapon, but that's getting much more complicated. This would allow units like the KGC or AS7 to "spray and pray" with the lasers and missiles while conserving the AC/20 ammo for better shots with less refire penalties as a bonus. However, a ammo % limiter threshold would be needed for low ammo missile boats like the TBT and CPLT, which is why they probably just settled on "single conservative shot" for the time being.

I agree with you, but it’s not as clear cut as all that.


I stopped to consider if there had EVER been a BATTLETECH AI BattleMech that has run out of ammunition against me... #NotYet

And I dare say this is pretty much true across the BATTLETECH world, at least for the most part.

Why conserve Ammunition for the Enemy/Player to salvage?

So a “Reasonable AI MechWarrior” would probably want to throw as much fire down range (again, in the case we are discussing, without building up Heat) as possible...

...rather than like it is now, a Thunderbolt popping off with a single Medium Laser for a turn or 2 before dying ignominiously. :shrug: (It really makes me sad whenever an AI Heavy dies like that.)

 

[Amechwarrior]

I agree with you, but it’s not as clear cut as all that.


I stopped to consider if there had EVER been a BATTLETECH AI BattleMech that has run out of ammunition against me... #NotYet

And I dare say this is pretty much true across the BATTLETECH world, at least for the most part.

Why conserve Ammunition for the Enemy/Player to salvage?

So a “Reasonable AI MechWarrior” would probably want to throw as much fire down range (again, in the case we are discussing, without building up Heat) as possible...

...rather than like it is now, a Thunderbolt popping off with a single Medium Laser for a turn or 2 before dying ignominiously. :shrug: (It really makes me sad whenever an AI Heavy dies like that.)

That's a good point considering the average lifespan of the AI units.