Does Sure footing + bulwark break the AI in 1.3?

[JackFrost]

After the bulwark rework, I've been essentially running 100% sure footing + bulwark since they now stack nicely and reduce incoming damage by an absurd amount.

This combo is so effective that I'm starting to think it partially breaks the AI. I've noticed that it's very rare for the AI to aggressively use its weapons since the 3-4 evasion pips plus 40% dr from cover and bulwark is so massive. Instead it seems to often hold back (seemingly breaking evasion pips while retaining heat).

The problem is that you can consistently stack all this defense at more or less all times, and since the AI won't aggressively use its weapons this acts as an additional layer of damage resistance. Effectively, by stacking too much evasion + dr - you gain significant extra "effective armor" by making it so the AI won't alpha strike very often.

I'm not sure what the deal is, but the AI is really not capable of dealing with bulwark + sure footing, and has seemingly not been modified to revolve around the game dominating power of bulwark (in neither taking advantage of it by standing in cover at 100% all times, nor fully being able to handle it when the player is using bulwark+sure footing on all guys).

The combo is so powerful that I've just stopped using anything else.

 

[JackFrost]

Since nobody has commented yet, I wanted to make sure the point was clear. I'm not 100% certain this is the case, but it seems likely:

- When the AI evaluates targets, it has some logic to avoid using too much heat when attacks aren't likely to do much damage (ie: when you have tons of defense stacked).

- Because bulwark + sure footing allows so much constant DR stacking (between 2-4 pips of evasion, and 40-60 flat DR) the AI chooses to generally avoid using all it's weapons to conserve heat.

- Because you can maintain full DR + evasion at all times reasonably easy, the AI will not ever use all of its weapons. Effectively granting you additional effective defense.

Simply: By stacking evasion and DR, it seems like the AI holds back a lot to conserve heat, which effectively acts as even more DR.

Again, I could be wrong but it really feels borderline broken so far.

 

[Masoz]

Sensor Locking and otherwise stacking accuracy debuffs works as well, even without Bulwark. I've run a ton of missions in the early game with terrible armor and no bulwark to great success.

My observation is that if the enemy has an abysmally low chance to hit, and are unable to sensor lock or multitarget, then they will often opt to fire a single weapon to strip off a single pip instead of wasting their ammo and accruing a ton of heat by alpha striking. To the player it may look like they are being stupid, but that's because we can't actually see what their to-hit chance is.

 

[Nakkivene]

I have a different experience.

- Bulwark is nice for the cover bonus, and if you can manage to show only one mech who'll vigilance/brace. Otherwise the AI will simply target something else, or attempt to close in.
- Evasion is completely unreliable. 5 chevrons still means I get hit by everything. I suppose if you're evading at a suboptimal range for the AI, but almost always it's a bunch of things advancing on you + a support of Jagermechs/LRM things/PPC's. Like I don't know, sure footing doesn't seem to be worth it at all.
- The AI firing practices seem random more than anything else. Sometimes it has the perfect shot at a vulnerable target. Other times it unloads everything at the max HP atlas who has 60% damage reduction - instead of any other target it can reach?

The only useful skills to me have been the gunnery skills, bulwark and the tactics skills. I keep using them regardless but I'm always so disappointed by piloting. Am I supposed to have like a fast sniper mech? But such a mech isn't targeted anyway and wants gunnery, not piloting.

 

[JackFrost]

My observation is that if the enemy has an abysmally low chance to hit, and are unable to sensor lock or multitarget, then they will often opt to fire a single weapon to strip off a single pip instead of wasting their ammo and accruing a ton of heat by alpha striking. To the player it may look like they are being stupid, but that's because we can't actually see what their to-hit chance is.

This is exactly it - the AI will fire one or two weapons to strip evasion and save heat. The problem is that if you are constantly stacking evasion + dr and keep moving, the AI doesn't ever really fully unload and with 40% dr you never even take structure damage.

It's so good I feel guilty. I really don't think the AI can handle it.

 

[Amechwarrior]

It's probably linked to the "k" : "Float_EvasiveToHitFloor", variable. This is set to 40% in stock play, below this and it will fire a single conservative shot. If you have Hit Defense Gyros and nimble units with Sure footing, I think you can trigger this often.

 

[Masoz]

This is exactly it - the AI will fire one or two weapons to strip evasion and save heat. The problem is that if you are constantly stacking evasion + dr and keep moving, the AI doesn't ever really fully unload and with 40% dr you never even take structure damage.

It's so good I feel guilty. I really don't think the AI can handle it.

I'm mainly just pointing out that you can accomplish the same thing with Sensor Lock. I don't think Bulwark does anything except for target priority. Whether they alpha strike or not will come down to evasion.

The good news is that this sounds like that can easily be fixed with via modding if you find it too cheesy.

For those curious, my main team right now consists of a PPC Vindicator, 2 PPC Panthers, and a stock Jenner that I use to sensor lock. Unless the AI has overwhelming numbers, this much sensor impairment + evasion completely wrecks the AI.

 

[JackFrost]

I'm mainly just pointing out that you can accomplish the same thing with Sensor Lock. I don't think Bulwark does anything except for target priority. Whether they alpha strike or not will come down to evasion.

Yeah, sensor lock would probably work as well, but this requires an action and only works if you've fully isolated one guy at a time. The reason bulwark is part of the problem is that when combined with evasion, your guys become essentially unkillable, since even when all evasion pips are stripped you still have 40-60 DR.

With 40% DR, you can take two AC20 shots and still not be in structure damage with a 55 ton chassis. When you couple that with 4+ evasion pips every turn -- you basically just never take any damage.

 

[Aleksandria]

There is one thing I want to note about the new Bulwark that seems to be being overlooked, and thats that relying on it means you're totally boned if you go to a lunar map.

Evidently there is no bulwark on the moon.

 

[Wissenschaft]

There is one thing I want to note about the new Bulwark that seems to be being overlooked, and thats that relying on it means you're totally boned if you go to a lunar map.

Evidently there is no bulwark on the moon.

Bracing + Bulwark will still give you 40% DR but you'll have to give up shooting with that mech.

 

[HBS_CaptKerberos]

Bracing + Bulwark will still give you 40% DR but you'll have to give up shooting with that mech.

^^^ What they said ^^^

 

[HBS_CaptKerberos]

It's probably linked to the "k" : "Float_EvasiveToHitFloor", variable. This is set to 40% in stock play, below this and it will fire a single conservative shot. If you have Hit Defense Gyros and nimble units with Sure footing, I think you can trigger this often.

^^^ What they said ^^^

 

[JackFrost]

^^^ What they said ^^^

So combat AI logic won't avoid using weapons based on DR to conserve heat?

I can feel a bit less guilty if it's 100% pure evasion that causes the AI to avoid attacking solidly and not being compounded by DR.

Still, feels kind of crazy overpowered. Not sure why 1.3 feels so much easier, outside of bulwark stacking with evasion though.

 

[Aleksandria]

While you can still Brace for the Bulwark bonus, its pretty clear nobody is evaluating it on its ability to make you Brace better. That said yeah, probably better to phrase it as "there is no cover on the moon".

On 1.3 feeling easier: I've noticed it somewhat, and I think its to do with how much the AI moves. I've noticed it remaining perfectly still when there's no reason to, or moving into positions that make for easy back shots. Not sure what variable would need adjusting to fix this, but I think its less aggressive shooting would be compensated for if they didn't often try to stay as still as possible. It almost feels like they're still trying to use pre-rework Bulwark.

 

[HBS_CaptKerberos]

So combat AI logic won't avoid using weapons based on DR to conserve heat?

I can feel a bit less guilty if it's 100% pure evasion that causes the AI to avoid attacking solidly and not being compounded by DR.

Still, feels kind of crazy overpowered. Not sure why 1.3 feels so much easier, outside of bulwark stacking with evasion though.

There are a multitude of factors that impact the AI's decision making to fire at any given target at any give time. Saying that it is ENTIRELY evasion based is not accurate, saying that it is ONLY DR is not accurate, the truth is somewhere in the middle of the two. DR and Evasion reduces the AI's projection of plausible damage output, and it adjusts and acts accordingly.

Additionally your experience of things being easier is not necessarily the same as other players. The feedback is well taken however.

We have a live product here with Battletech, and I am open to examining balance changes for combat as we continue, whether it's the threshold for enemies firing multiple weapons, or how good or bad our new Cyclops Battle Computer is.

I won't commit to any changes. What I can tell you we read what you all write here: positive, negative or otherwise; and we can adjust accordingly if time allows.

 

[BARBOSA (Aries)]

Sure footing made little difference to me, as evasion still let too much hit you in 4+ skull missions, due to opfor high gunnery stats (i think). Even after the nerf Bulwark still my main defence. If i start a new game, my company will be named Tree Huggers... So far multishot is best lv5 skill to me, with bulwark 2.0 in 2nd.

 

[JackFrost]

Sure footing made little difference to me, as evasion still let too much hit you in 4+ skull missions, due to opfor high gunnery stats (i think). Even after the nerf Bulwark still my main defence. If i start a new game, my company will be named Tree Huggers... So far multishot is best lv5 skill to me, with bulwark 2.0 in 2nd.

For the record I'm running all 4+ skull missions with a lance of mediums and not taking enough damage to get structure (unless I make a big mistake). I'm usually seeing a mix of heavy and assault. I just run all ace pilot and bulwark ATM. I have a master tactician that I swap in if I run a heavy to keep initiative at 3. Although I think running all ace pilot is currently better.

I don't think I'm a super elite player, I just max out my evasion pips and maul one target at a time when they have no DR.

 

[HBS_CaptKerberos]

For the record I'm running all 4+ skull missions with a lance of mediums and not taking enough damage to get structure. I'm usually seeing a mix of heavy and assault. I just run all ace pilot and bulwark ATM. I have a master tactician that I swap in if I run a heavy to keep initiative at 3.

I don't think I'm a super elite player, I just max out my evasion pips and maul one target at a time when they have no DR.

Understood, and I appreciate the feedback! I'll add it to notes I'm compiling around combat balance that have been posted here and elsewhere.

Every bit helps.

Again, stay tuned on future updates, we may be tweaking systems & balance based on feedback.

 

[Jack Frost]

I don't think I'm a super elite player

You need to live up to your namesake...

 

[ZeroAffex]

I am very green behind the ears concerning Battletech having purchased it along with the season pass over the Thanksgiving week sale on steam but nearing a week in and having used both versions of Bulwark I will say that the re-balanced version of it is definitely balanced. Finding cover has been troublesome more often than not and even having a MechWarrior with both Bulwark and Surefooting hasn't made me feel overpowered by any means. Cover isn't guaranteed where old Bulwark mechanics no matter which biomes you played on it could be used effectively.

Hitting maps with little cover points or none at all makes Bulwark only good for reducing heat (if the biome has an atmosphere) and regaining stability when you guard with minimal damage from enemy fire during the phase and Surefooting while great for lasers and auto cannons sometimes, still doesn't guarantee I will not take damage, just lessens my odds of shots connecting and those that connect hit for 100%. Missiles seem to bypass evasion or maybe it's shrapnel damage from those that pound the ground nearby but missiles scare me when I rely on evasion chevrons to be honest, they hurt and make me unstable both in-game and mentally. First thing on my mind is to either run out of their range or move in too close for them to be used depending on the situation.

Right now my favorite combination of skills for my MechWarriors is Piloting with Surefooting and Tactician with Master Tactician for reduced indirect fire damage for having points into it just to have it unlocked but the nice bonus of +1 initiative and decreasing instability when reserving. I am more likely to combo Guts (Bulwark) with Gunnery honestly because of the heat/recoil reduction boost you get over Piloting which only allows you to move further with some added evasion. Just me though and like I said I am new to the game so you can take my input with a grain of salt xD Cheers!

PS: Hey devs, just want to say "Great game!" if you read this, really loving the complexities of it and the amount of lore you guys crammed into it. I am so stoked for the future, no idea.. Keep up the hard work!

-Zero