Does it even make sense to start as a megacorp when you can transform to it later?

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Aepdneds

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You can basically switch for "free" when you get your third civic point, and in the early game most planets aren't even developed enough to build a single branch office building on them. If you want to form a trade league you can do it with the merchant guild civic too.
 
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Ryika

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Not starting as a Megacorp also means the game won't spawn 200 opposing Megacorps near you, which means that when you finally get your branch offices, you'll actually be able to use them. Plus, Megacorp Civics are also pretty bad in the early game... well, bad in general, but especially in the early game where it counts the most.

So on the surface, I'd say no... but then again, I'd say no to switching into a Megacorp in general right now if efficiency is the only consideration.
 
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Aepdneds

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Not starting as a Megacorp also means the game won't spawn 200 opposing Megacorps near you, which means that when you finally get your branch offices, you'll actually be able to use them.
Good point
So on the surface, I'd say no... but then again, I'd say no to switching into a Megacorp in general right now if efficiency is the only consideration.
It is not only efficiency, it is RP also, it doesn't really make sense to me that there is a civilization based on extra terrestrial trade before it ever met an alien civilization.
 
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I mainly play megacorps first for criminal heritage. I enjoy playing like a cult that wants to spread its tendrils over all life in the galaxy.
 
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Zoomy

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Only advantages I can think of are the slight bump to starting pops and access to Private Prospectors, which makes early game colonisation much easier.

You also need to start as a Megacorp to have access to Criminal Heritage, but the advantages of that are...limited.
 
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it doesn't really make sense to me that there is a civilization based on extra terrestrial trade before it ever met an alien civilization

It's less that they're based on extra terrestrial trade than that they're just based on commerce. "Trade points" ingame don't necessarily represent trade with other empires, rather they represent commerce in general. Even a fanatic purifier or inward perfection empire has trade points.
 
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CelticRitter

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Starting Megacorp in a federation can give you an early jump on branch offices, and help you form an early trade league. In theory you benefit from your allies expansion as well as your own.

I found megacorp a very strong tech rush due to the incraesed energy from trade.
 
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Ryika

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Starting Megacorp in a federation can give you an early jump on branch offices, and help you form an early trade league. In theory you benefit from your allies expansion as well as your own.

I found megacorp a very strong tech rush due to the incraesed energy from trade.
Void Dweller + Technocracy + Mercantile Traditions does trade-based tech rushes a lot better though.

Megacorps just lack the synergistic Civics that push them to the next level, and Branch Offices don't really synergize with anything either. At least not until you unlock the stronger empire-wide bonuses later in the game.
 
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CelticRitter

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I haven't played any serious multiplayer (I mainly play casual multiplayer). Due to that lack of experience this build is probably not the best build min-maxed but I'm going to put it out for discussion of its strengths/weaknesses.

Ethics: Fanatic Spiritualist-Xenophile (Megacorp)
Civics: Gospel of the masses, Mastercraft Inc.
Origin: Galactic Union (Both allies will be Xenophile, spiritualist)

Strategy. Buy a few favors and convert to trade league for free trade policy. Home planet will be miners + artificers + priests+ as many researchers as posssible. Use your high unity output to rush Discovery for the research subsidies edict and the research speed. You can then take tech ascendency. Your priests allow you to close off all the clerks and your branch offices allow you to unemploy a few technicians for more researchers
 

fusei

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I give each AI an advanced start, so when I set up an early BO on their homeworlds I get something like 50+ ec/month which certainly helps.
 
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Nebbie Zebbie

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Not starting as a Megacorp also means the game won't spawn 200 opposing Megacorps near you, which means that when you finally get your branch offices, you'll actually be able to use them. Plus, Megacorp Civics are also pretty bad in the early game... well, bad in general, but especially in the early game where it counts the most.

So on the surface, I'd say no... but then again, I'd say no to switching into a Megacorp in general right now if efficiency is the only consideration.
This is a myth. You just notice rival Megacorps more as a Megacorp than when you're not one.

As to the topic question: Yes, it does. I would be very annoyed at not being able to start as one, given the RP potential, even if they're not really great.
 
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Forget Gospel of the Masses. It doesn't help you in the slightest at the start and you can reform your government and get it later when you have branch offices. Brand Loyality is better for unity.
 
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Millbot

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As much as I like the concept of megacorps. If we're talking about min/max, forget day 1 start and ask if it's even worth playing because we have non-megacorp builds that do the whole trade thing better. If we go for chill, the map generator pretty much kills the enjoyability of it. "Oh, you picked a megacorp, enjoy having to compete with nearly half the galaxies empires capable of outside trade being megacorps. Also expect nearly half the non-megacorps empires in the galaxy to be something you can't establish branch offices in.

Probably the first thing megacorps need as a QoL, now that created vassals don't start out as competing megacorps, would be establishing some rules for map generation. I've even had games where I'm not a megacorp and the game just spawns too many of them IMO. Like in most games, there should be 2-4. Two at a minimum which is probably always pushing it on tiny and small galaxies and then ramping as the galaxy gets bigger until you cap at 4. Maybe you could go up to 5 with large and huge. I get not wanting it to be free real-estate because there is only one megacorp, but there should be something in place to ensure that people can do something with branches early on.

Also I suspect the ease for switching between megacorps and normal empires is too easy. It's one reason why I suggested that the devs look into making clerks a worker job that megacorps want over other worker jobs and actually worth having. Essentially, go with a setup where you are building your worlds significantly different as a megacorp than other empires, so that there is a real cost when you drop the megacorp status, you either have to have been pre-emptively adjusting your worlds to mesh better for a normal empire or work to fix them afterwards. Regardless, doing so incurs a penalty where your worlds aren't exactly optimal because megacorps and normal empires have enough differences. Doing that makes it a bit easier to justify giving megacrops some really good civics.

On civics they really do need some adjustments because they are all kind of meh at the start of the game and only a few get to good territory later on.

Also would love to see the elephant in the room that is criminal heritage get some adjustments. IMO there should be a normal empire civic that is a counterpart to the megacorp civic. There are valid reasons to cease being a megacorp after game start or to switch in and currently I'm pretty sure criminal heritage works against this. Call it crime lords. A big aspect for both criminal heritage and crime lords is that they replace crime with loyalty because IMO it makes no since for the empires of crime to find crime a bad thing. As for the other aspect of a theoretical crime lords civic, well since they can't have branch offices on a whim, maybe they get a cut of the energy from any branch offices on their planets.
 
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Not starting as a Megacorp also means the game won't spawn 200 opposing Megacorps near you
The devs have stated several times that there is no such mechanism in the game setup. I suppose they could be lying for some reason, but if not this is just a case of confirmation bias.
 
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DeanTheDull

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The devs have stated several times that there is no such mechanism in the game setup. I suppose they could be lying for some reason, but if not this is just a case of confirmation bias.
Not necessarily. There is no intended mechanism created by the devs to do the like-and-like, but that doesn't mean there aren't unintended factors that the game devs didn't create, and haven't been able to identify. And- given how many identified unidentified bugs are present in the game (as a natural/unavoidable consequence of constant update cycles)- it's not at all unreasonable for their to be unidentified bugs whose mechanisms haven't been caught. It certainly wouldn't be the first time that errors in the galaxy spawning process caused unintended effects (such as, say, the just-patched fix for only one L-Gate outcome).

Confirmation bias wouldn't be proven by the lack of a known mechanism, but a data analysis provided by Paradox (or player aggregates) on average empire generation per galaxy generation. A diagram breakdown of how many empires types spawn for various government types (and- potentially- civic combinations) would be the best proof one way or another, but as far as I'm aware no one has provided this one way or the other.
 
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Millbot

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Yeah, one of two things are likely happening. As DeanTheDull points out, the game is unintentionally spawning maps megacorp heavy when the player starts as a megacorp. The other thing that could be happening, is that we as human just remember the games with half the galaxy being megacorps during our megacorp playthrough better and IMO it does seem to be fairly often.

Again, both issues could be fixed by just having code in place that puts a limit on how many megacorps can spawn based on number of empires being spawned. I mean, let's be honest if I select a spawn where there are 18 empires and the game RNGs into 9 being megacorps, 1 being PF, 4 normal empires and the rest being gestalts. That really isn't crating a good game experience for me regardless of whether or not I'm one of 9 megacorps. That is a spawn that effectively handicaps half the empires in the game to be subpar and god help the AI if I'm one of the megacorps and find the four normal empires first and get branch offices on them before the 8 AI megacorps start bothering with branch offices.

Sometimes I feel the devs are too much in love with leaving things to RNG and that results in less than stellar gameplay for the player. Sometimes you put limits in place on what RNG can do because the outcomes above those limits, just detract from the gameplay experience.
 
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DeanTheDull

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You can basically switch for "free" when you get your third civic point, and in the early game most planets aren't even developed enough to build a single branch office building on them. If you want to form a trade league you can do it with the merchant guild civic too.

In the early game, it can better to start as a Megacorp and reform out of it when you have your third civic. This is because most normal empire civic bonuses only really start rolling in the later-early game, while Mega-Corp has some substantial bonuses for the immediate early game that can provide substantial assets in that period for you to get the tech and reach that third civic stage in year 40-50 or so.


If you aren't mil-rushing as a genocidal, one of the strongest civics in the early colonization phase is the Private Prospector civic, which lets you buy colony ships for 500 energy instead of the 200 alloys/food/consumer good. This is a substantial savings in all the resources, not only saving you in the resources themselves but also the pops needed to produce those excesses. Instead of employing another Industrial District or 2 of workers producing alloys and CGs for nothing but colonization ships at a reasonable rate, you can use those workers for your science program, while stockpiling the not-used alloys for your fleets (2 corvettes or 1 star base each colony ship early game), or not producing excess food you don't need so you can employ another farmer instead of miner.

This is far, far more than the CG/Alloy/Science benefit you might get from, say, Meritocracy as a normal empire. Meritocracy's 10% specialist output is considered great, but adding just one more scientist to your empire outweighs Meritocracy's entire science benefit until the point of 10 scientists, which you can't afford in the early game. For Meritocracy to match 600 alloys from just 3 colony ships, at roughly .3 additional alloys per 3-alloy-per-job workers, you'd need 2000 job-months, which would take 10 alloys workers nearly 17 years to meet at a point where you probably aren't able to afford 10 alloy workers. And of course the food savings is just straight-up a worker pop that could be doing something else rather than building a stockpile. Like, say, being a scientist for another greater-than-10% scientist increase.

This is a very potent economic, military self-defense buff at a point in the game where most conventional empire expansions entail accepting risk that you're not going to have hostile neighbors, and trying to balance feeding their expansion for long-term gain and feeding their science economy. Whereas prospectors can just... employ the scientists on the CG they don't have to keep stockpiling, are able get more colonies established sooner without having to wait for the stockpiles to build (and thus get use of their colonies to start building), and get the tech to reform out of mega-corp before 'better' civics come into play.



Add to that the Ruler Pop increased energy income in the early game (great for buffing your early mineral economy with monthly purchases, also freeing up pops), 30 admin cap (a significant buffer delaying the need for more admin guys to avoid net science loss until later, although you do face steeper penalties after the point), and a few other civics for strong early-economy (+4 starbases can be paid for by the colony ship savings, and have hydroponics bays that remove the need for any farmer jobs until you have 80+ pops, letting your guaranteed worlds be purely energy/mineral centric; alternatively catalytic processing can make use of the significant spared food while alloying your mineral economy is able to afford more scientists sooner), and the ability to form the best Federation early in the game without having to spend a civic slot on the option...

Mega-Corp starts have very strong potential, and their biggest weakness is unity production. Which- at this time- is one of the least significant resources, and can be mitigated by their own early-game economy civics.
 
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Ryika

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Yeah, one of two things are likely happening. As DeanTheDull points out, the game is unintentionally spawning maps megacorp heavy when the player starts as a megacorp. The other thing that could be happening, is that we as human just remember the games with half the galaxy being megacorps during our megacorp playthrough better and IMO it does seem to be fairly often.

Again, both issues could be fixed by just having code in place that puts a limit on how many megacorps can spawn based on number of empires being spawned. I mean, let's be honest if I select a spawn where there are 18 empires and the game RNGs into 9 being megacorps, 1 being PF, 4 normal empires and the rest being gestalts. That really isn't crating a good game experience for me regardless of whether or not I'm one of 9 megacorps. That is a spawn that effectively handicaps half the empires in the game to be subpar and god help the AI if I'm one of the megacorps and find the four normal empires first and get branch offices on them before the 8 AI megacorps start bothering with branch offices.

Sometimes I feel the devs are too much in love with leaving things to RNG and that results in less than stellar gameplay for the player. Sometimes you put limits in place on what RNG can do because the outcomes above those limits, just detract from the gameplay experience.
I did a few quick tests when @Nebbie Zebbie made their post - certainly not under proper conditions (start a game with 30 Empires, copy-paste a script to calculate % of Megacorps among normal AI Empires, write it down, start again), and not in an amount that would accumulate to any kind of certainty, but what I found was ... or rather, what I did not find, was ANY kind of correlation between whether I chose to play a Megacorp or not.

Those were only a few dozen restarts each, but both versions were sitting at ~21% Megacorps in the galaxy, swinging wildly and without noticeable pattern, usually between 10-30%. Now again, that was a very rough test that shouldn't be taken too seriously, since I didn't account for any other variables that may be involved, and went with a very low sample size, but the fact that I literally did not find anything makes me think that Nebbie Zebbie is probably right.

Especially when you consider that it's not only Megacorps that ruin the fun, but also Machines, Hives, Purifiers, and any empire that start with a near unsalvageable attitude towards you. This may make the game where one can just follow the strategy that one wants to play the odd one out, and that's pretty much the situation where I'd expect our brains to come up with false patterns that draw us towards false conclusions.

But assuming all of that is true, the problem with Branch Offices is still the same. You're given tools, and then have to hope for good RNG to even be able to make active use of them in the earlier parts of the game.
 
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Incompetent

Euroweenie in Exile
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The devs have stated several times that there is no such mechanism in the game setup. I suppose they could be lying for some reason, but if not this is just a case of confirmation bias.

I am also sceptical, but there is a real reason you should start as non-Megacorp to optimize foreign government: liberation wars. If you start as Merchant Guilds, you can impose a Merchant Guilds government everywhere, meaning everyone becomes a great candidate for branch offices. (This is even more true if the AI picks traditions based on civics, i.e. Merchant Guilds civic increases the weight of Mercantile tradition; but I don't know if that's the reality.) By contrast, liberation wars as a Megacorp are useless, although at least releasing subsidiaries is OK now.

Then again, if you're playing a Merchant Guilds empire, is it even worth switching out to Megacorp later? I suppose it could be, once you have unlocked all traditions (meaning the unity bonus from Merchant Guilds is surplus to requirements, and you're far enough into the game that the Administrator->Merchant job swap is not significant).