Does HOI4 still have corps,army,army group ?

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Modestus

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The goal seems to be to level the playing field, to compensate for the huge handicap of a [polite]moronic[/polite] AI vs. player. It also saves coding time because that way they only have to adapt the existing AI instead of making the (huge?) effort to improve it in a meaningfully way. Sorry if I sound too harsh but this is how I understand the change and tbh I was expecting something like this long before HOI IV was even announced.

I am not sure if we are talking about the same thing.......

You have 3 Panzer Divisions and your battle-plan is to attack province X and advance to province Y (which is 5 provinces behind the enemies front-line) so you draw your arrow and assign your Panzer Divisions to that attack vector.

But there is no need to assign any infantry divisions to that attack vector because you can simply move them yourself, they are free agents and are not part of the battle-plan. Your Panzer Divisions will clear a path so there should be no penalties for not being part of the battle-plan the player will simply move them himself.

Expand that thought and ask, what happens if I don’t make any battle-plan whatsoever and I move all my Divisions myself ? My battle-plan is in my head there are no arrows on the map and there are no attack vectors for the AI to uncover will this be such a disadvantage or will it in fact allow me a much greater freedom to tear the AI apart.

Battle-plans on the map seem to make no real sense because the best battle-plan is in the players head and that will always remain a secret.
 

albso437

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Expand that thought and ask, what happens if I don’t make any battle-plan whatsoever and I move all my Divisions myself ? My battle-plan is in my head there are no arrows on the map and there are no attack vectors for the AI to uncover will this be such a disadvantage or will it in fact allow me a much greater freedom to tear the AI apart.

As far as I understand, the only way to give an attack order is via battleplans..
 

albso437

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We don't know how the newer BP system work but in the old one you could give orders directly but your divisions would suffer penalty for doing so.

What do you mean with "newer"?
I can't find the post now, but some dev wrote something along the lines that it was possible to give orders to individual Divs, but you still do it in the form of a BP.
 

Denkt

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Podcat said that they had completely redone the BP system from how it was in the September stream.
I don't think we have any information about this new BP system as nothing we know from the old system can be used as facts.
 

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As far as I understand, the only way to give an attack order is via battleplans..

From my understanding you might be right. But Modestus still has a point. As I understand it the longer you wait after setting the Battle plan the more organized, better supplied, & maybe other things. So for your 5 or 6 province deep thrust you set your plans & wait a few days or weeks for supplies to build up for those units then you start the attack. Other units not commented you can quickly assign to a 1 province deep thrust as things develop since they don't need as much supply. From earlier posts (things may have changed) the more prep time the better things go, but you still can micro a battle if you wish. If you plan big sweeping deep attacks then you need time for supplies to build up and the you can let your troops go. As with all plans things may not go to plan. If you plane a lot of small thrust (a week or so of game time) then see the current situation and make a new set of plans base on the current situation there will be little delay at each stage because the supply build up is less. You may lose momentum doing this. My guess the best way would be to make intermediate level plans with a big uncommitted reserve that you can assign as needed.
 

albso437

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Podcat said that they had completely redone the BP system from how it was in the September stream.
I don't think we have any information about this new BP system as nothing we know from the old system can be used as facts.

Noted, with thanks!

Where/when did he do that?
 

BarrosRodrigues

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I am not sure if we are talking about the same thing.......

You have 3 Panzer Divisions and your battle-plan is to attack province X and advance to province Y (which is 5 provinces behind the enemies front-line) so you draw your arrow and assign your Panzer Divisions to that attack vector.

But there is no need to assign any infantry divisions to that attack vector because you can simply move them yourself, they are free agents and are not part of the battle-plan. Your Panzer Divisions will clear a path so there should be no penalties for not being part of the battle-plan the player will simply move them himself.

Expand that thought and ask, what happens if I don’t make any battle-plan whatsoever and I move all my Divisions myself ? My battle-plan is in my head there are no arrows on the map and there are no attack vectors for the AI to uncover will this be such a disadvantage or will it in fact allow me a much greater freedom to tear the AI apart.

Battle-plans on the map seem to make no real sense because the best battle-plan is in the players head and that will always remain a secret.
The goal is to make the player inteligence the less valuable as possible and to tip the AI of your movments (...) Also doing a battle plan introduces latency so latter the picture might be different therefore not an optimal plan/move anymore and you can't rearrange divisions on the fly for an oportunistic job anymore; these are all nerfs to the player and clutches for the AI to appear to be better when in fact it still has the intelligence of a ~rock. I am sure there are more implications and variables but you get the idea.
 
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As far as I understand, the only way to give an attack order is via battleplans..
You can give manual orders too.

Regarding whether it has been redone: as a side note, it's generally a bad idea to take pre-alpha content and assume that's how the finished game will be.
 

Denkt

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Regarding whether it has been redone: as a side note, it's generally a bad idea to take pre-alpha content and assume that's how the finished game will be.

That is pretty wise said:D

We yet have to see what we get, right now we can only take guess and that won't give us any real knowledge how the system will work.
 

AlexLifeson

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The goal is to make the player inteligence the less valuable as possible and to tip the AI of your movments (...) Also doing a battle plan introduces latency so latter the picture might be different therefore not an optimal plan/move anymore and you can't rearrange divisions on the fly for an oportunistic job anymore; these are all nerfs to the player and clutches for the AI to appear to be better when in fact it still has the intelligence of a ~rock. I am sure there are more implications and variables but you get the idea.

It sounds more like a war "simulator" than a strategic gaming experience.
 

BarrosRodrigues

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It sounds more like a war "simulator" than a strategic gaming experience.
IDK, I only know that HOI III gave us loads of options for army control and organization without any kind of artificial restrictions or penalties to playstyle. In short everyone could use they're preferred playing style like having historical OOBs to no OOB at all (everything directly under the TH HQ with one click) and from controlling everything manually to everything under AI control or whatever % of AI/manual control you felt more comfortable with. To be honest if HOI III forced me to play in a certain way I would probably not enjoy it has much as I did/do.
Nice talking to you again! :)
 

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The goal is to make the player inteligence the less valuable as possible and to tip the AI of your movments (...) Also doing a battle plan introduces latency so latter the picture might be different therefore not an optimal plan/move anymore and you can't rearrange divisions on the fly for an oportunistic job anymore; these are all nerfs to the player and clutches for the AI to appear to be better when in fact it still has the intelligence of a ~rock. I am sure there are more implications and variables but you get the idea.

You know that's just made-up, right? There is no evidence that the battle plan you create for your country would be automatically available to the AI enemy. If that was going to the case, then there would be uproar about "cheating" AI.

My understanding is that there is a chance that Intel can discover a plan, and that would apply both ways. You should be able to discover the AI's plans.

Of course there is latency. Like real life. It was one of the "immersion" aspects which HOI2 and 3 (and therefore probably HOI1, though I never played it) got completely wrong - that without any pre-planning, you could pause and give orders to all your units to start advancing immediately, and within an hour they would be in combat with the enemy, because movement is attack, and units are deemed to always face each other directly over the province borders.

Nevertheless, the devs were clear that if you want, then you can still do it that way. For some Divs or all of them. If you want to micro all of your forces, then you can. But they said that there will be a bonus if you have a battle plan. We don't know how that will work, but it seems reasonable that it will be linked to logistics. If you have a battle plan, then the Divs covered by the plan get to draw extra supplies to sustain them through a major offensive, and to be able to carry out a preparation artillery barrage for instance (that gives you a bonus in the first day of an offensive for instance). And the longer you create the battle plan before you launch the attack, the more supplies can be drawn. But there should be a limit - where after a certain amount of time, you can't draw more supplies or you can't get much of a bonus from them.

So if you pause the game, then give dozens of Divs orders to attack immediately then they should have only minimal supplies, and should not be able to sustain a long offensive. The sort of effect in HOI3 where following combat you can't attack again for several days, but make this directly an effect related to logistics, rather than the artificial way it was in HOI3. This could be done by making an attacking unit use 5 - 10 times the normal daily supply use. In that sense there is not direct penalty to the people who don't want to use a battle plan, and small scale attacks can still be effective with no pre-planning.

For a Panzer Corps with a battle plan located behind the lines, a couple of weeks of game time for example might give them enough supplies to allow them to sustain an attack three provinces deep, before they start to run short of supplies, and the attack takes place with minimal or no attack delays between each province.

My suggestion that El Alamein was broke down into just a battle between two personalities - Rommel and Monty, like EU or CK. Sorry, but it is the reality of a province based system, if the whole of the Commonwealth forces are located in a single province. Only one man can be the leader who is commanding the battle. And in HOI3 that would have been one of the Div commanders on the front line - ridiculous! Now Monty and Rommel's own stats affect the outcome of the battle by not having Div and Corps commanders. But they are not the only thing, so even in this situation there is strategy. You can do what Montgomery did IRL, and postpone his attack for months while supplies were built up, new equipment/tanks were brought in, and attrition and two unsuccessful attacks by Rommel had weakened Rommel's forces. With Monty knowing that Rommel couldn't replace his losses of men, equipment and supplies.

Someone (lmao) suggested that Rommel was a great commander but the UK was "cheating" by listening into his messages with the General Staff, so they knew his supply situation. Hopefully, the game also covers this situation - that Rommel has his offensive battle plans in his first two attacks, which would be visible to a UK player, and then his defensive plan in the final stages. And the Intel should show how bad his supply situation is, with an estimate that he would be unable to hold a defensive line more than a week.
 

Modestus

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The goal is to make the player inteligence the less valuable as possible and to tip the AI of your movments (...) Also doing a battle plan introduces latency so latter the picture might be different therefore not an optimal plan/move anymore and you can't rearrange divisions on the fly for an oportunistic job anymore; these are all nerfs to the player and clutches for the AI to appear to be better when in fact it still has the intelligence of a ~rock. I am sure there are more implications and variables but you get the idea.

Hard to imagine Paradox making a game that will attempt to make the players intelligence less valuable.

Anyhow you can obviously move Divisions outside of a Battle-plan so the logical step would be to use your Battle-plan to clear a pathway and then to manually move other divisions up from behind which would allow those Divisions the freedom to do whatever they want.

Of course I am assuming there is some advantage to using a Battle-plan but there cannot be a huge advantage, at the most there may be no attack delay because why would one Panzer Division within a battle-plan be superior to another Panzer Division that is being controlled manually.

It will be interesting to see what Paradox come up with because as it stands at the moment I see no reason why you would want to use a battle-plan that you will almost certainly want to change, in fact if you don’t need to change your plan your either a military genius or the enemy AI is useless.
 

BarrosRodrigues

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Hard to imagine Paradox making a game that will attempt to make the players intelligence less valuable.
Lol they already did it, it is called EU IV (...) and HOI IV will follow its footsteps.
Edit: I am not saying intelligence is irrelevant, what I am saying is that the high randomness combined with very simple mechanics, very simple tech three, alliance rules that favor defense and a pattern to eradicate smart gameplay with fantasy rules helps EU IV brain-dead AI because it levels/simplifies/railroads gameplay therefore reducing the edge that intelligence provides.
 
Last edited:

BarrosRodrigues

aka marcoan7onio
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You know that's just made-up, right?.
Sorry but IMO it is true. I am not saying that is their official position but it’s my belief that they've hit a brick wall with the AI development (financial, technical, whatever) so they are adapting the games to their existing AI in a way that makes it look better no matter what. I am not saying this out of the blue there is a pattern that when faced with a problem a feature is removed or rules are changed instead of "teaching" the AI to use the feature or more complex gameplay that gives an edge to the player (...)

My understanding is that there is a chance that Intel can discover a plan, and that would apply both ways. You should be able to discover the AI's plans.
Did you know that the HOI III AI cheats? Is it written somewhere that for example the AI knows that you are not garrisoning port A or B and prioritizes them for invasion? Its problem is that the player can recognize patterns easily therefore what is supposed to be an AI boon ends up being a trap. IMO Battle plans expand on that. Regardless whenever you have to input information about your next move you can be exploited or you can exploit (...)
 
Last edited:

safe-keeper

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Sorry but IMO it is true. I am not saying that is their official position but it’s my belief that they've hit a brick wall with the AI development (financial, technical, whatever) so they are adapting the games to their existing AI in a way that makes it look better no matter what. I am not saying this out of the blue there is a pattern that when faced with a problem a feature is removed or rules are changed instead of "teaching" the AI to use the feature or more complex gameplay that gives an edge to the player (...)
"It's true" and "it's my belief" are two very different statements. What I've seen of dev statements (back in alpha, admittedly) is that AI knowledge of your battle plans is tied to intelligence. They may know what you're planning to do, but it's far from a given.

Did you know that the HOI III AI cheats? Is it written somewhere that for example the AI knows that you are not garrisoning port A or B and prioritizes them for invasion?
Same here. Things can be "written somewhere" on the Internet and still be completely false.