Actually...and I'm not trolling...I like piles more than drawers. My wife can attest to that. :sad:
Does HOI4 still have corps,army,army group ?
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Actually...and I'm not trolling...I like piles more than drawers. My wife can attest to that. :sad:
What on earth do you base this on?
There were division templates in HOI3, too, that didn't stop me from building a multitude of different kinds of divisions. A div with three infantry and AT is vastly different from one with two infantry brigades, one Guards brigade and rocket artillery.
Yup. You build divisions based on battalions, not brigades. Ie. smaller pieces = far more ways to customize your armies = more variation. Then, as you say yourself, you've got models and variants now, so you don't just have "Armour", you have Panzer II, Panzer III, Panzer IV, not to mention variants of these (my Panzer IVB might be very different from my original Panzer IV). In other words, more variation, and more of a reason to have a good system for keeping track of your units.
Black ICE has a system similar to what HOI4 seems to be aiming for: you've got lots of building blocks, and countless ways to build divisions. Trust me, a good tool for keeping track of what is where is essential.
I don't understand. Do you imagine that you can create only one kind of infantry division, one type of tank division, etc.? Because if so, I strongly believe (and hope
) you're wrong about that.What if you're wrong and you can create divisions freely like in HOI3? A light tank counter/model in HOI3 didn't tell me much when I had several types of divisions that happened to contain light tanks. Sure, I gave divisions different names, but you don't see those unless you've selected units, and to select them you need to actually find them.
And surely your wife has already told you to you should play more HoI 3 to appreciate the usefulness of drawers. :laugh:
Being a meterman, knowing about the ratio of ´drawer-people´ to ´piles-people´ first hand, i begin to understand PI´s decision for piles...
(if anyone feels offended - which is not my intention - PM me, and i will alter this post to alleviate that)
(if anyone feels offended - which is not my intention - PM me, and i will alter this post to alleviate that)
I hated the OOB feature in HoI3 and am glad it's gone. I look forward to being able to just select a general to lead an army rather than one for every division in it, never having to worry about an HQ going out of range again, and not having to spend an hour mucking about with my military structure before I can start a game.
HoI4 is going to be glorious.
HoI4 is going to be glorious.
1. This thread has a highly dense concentration of intelligent and well-considered comments in favor of groups and groups of groups (Corps and armies) organized persistently for particular operational needs, and the value of an interface that makes it easy to identify, find on the map, evaluate, choose, tag and assign/re-assign particular types of units to such groups. I can only echo those and think about what else might be said.
2. The only leaders that should matter are those that really matter in those key roles and locations where they have an impact on developments in a theater or major battle. (OK, picking divisional commanders was kind of fun, sometimes, for a while, then a chore.),
3. It may not be technically simple, but, since the gameplay takes place on a map, and military maps commonly depict boundaries between formations and subformations using lines, hatching/coloring overlay, or other markings as well as color and symbols, I would think handling the location of HQ/center of gravity/supply base as well as logistics coverage and other information could be conveyed that way. It would also help identify stray divisions that have become separated (typically this will be due to a sequence of player actions and maybe losing track of that is supposed to go where).
4. I'm sure it is not in the game, but would like to see the ability to have a menu to select from proposed alternative organiztions of a pile of divisions organize into corps (e.g., a particular pile could have more or less infantry, mech, and armored corps depending on division assignments).
5. The power of right-click context menus to take actions on a target game item are usually underused IMHO.
Sure hope so!
2. The only leaders that should matter are those that really matter in those key roles and locations where they have an impact on developments in a theater or major battle. (OK, picking divisional commanders was kind of fun, sometimes, for a while, then a chore.),
3. It may not be technically simple, but, since the gameplay takes place on a map, and military maps commonly depict boundaries between formations and subformations using lines, hatching/coloring overlay, or other markings as well as color and symbols, I would think handling the location of HQ/center of gravity/supply base as well as logistics coverage and other information could be conveyed that way. It would also help identify stray divisions that have become separated (typically this will be due to a sequence of player actions and maybe losing track of that is supposed to go where).
4. I'm sure it is not in the game, but would like to see the ability to have a menu to select from proposed alternative organiztions of a pile of divisions organize into corps (e.g., a particular pile could have more or less infantry, mech, and armored corps depending on division assignments).
5. The power of right-click context menus to take actions on a target game item are usually underused IMHO.
Sure hope so!
But it isn't real though, it's a strategic war game. Unless there are units with no frontage, then there is no rear echelon in this unless you want to make units for it and never let them fight for some reason. The different doctrines seem to be represented in the layout already without making up rear echelon divisions, they modify the stats on a battalion level basis. Army groups and Div corps aren't in this one, it thus far seems to be all the combat units only. You can still group those archer units under a general, seemingly you'll even be able to group huge numbers of forces in this way so long as there are enough commanders.
"select all your tanks etc" is. Real Time Strategy, this is a Real Time Strategy game, (with pause!).
They wanted this game to be about planning more than just what you're referring to with the RTS reference, and I agree that I don't want it to be a "straight up RTS". In that example where you need to give a division arty, we don't have much information on how that works yet (equipping units).
I /want/ it to work like this, Select that light inf. copy the template, add arty to this new template. Then they already have all the same equipment so the light inf. doesn't move from the map but their str goes down because they don't have arty. Which would get fixed if you have enough arty to equip them. To get to the point of what we do know, you have to have built the arty beforehand if you want them to have it, there's a longer game there.
So, you can select all your tanks with what, two clicks? You could then, also, select sub units of whatever type of tank template you wanted (or multiple templates) and assign them to a commander, and then to a plan.
It's not like "Oh I can select all my tanks easily? I better always throw globs of tanks around." The previous HOI's did a good job of making you feel like you were really in WW2, and I liked that.
But now the game element is probably more apparent, I'd wager that EVERYTHING that someone could want in a WW2 game will be able to be represented broadly. For instance, up-gunning your battle ships from 12' to 16' guns, in this one might be just giving them +2 attack. Although this last bit is neither here nor there, because as much fun as I have imagining having a rear echelon, some will never be happy until these differences are show verbatim in the game, which is fine - because modding.
I think no one wants you to have to pick a General for every Division or that your are required to keep a HQ within range.
What they do want and feel is needed is some means to organise your forces in a manner that allows you to issue instructions to sections of your armies to perform specific tasks such as instructing a PZ Corps to spearhead an attack.
It is of paramount importance, a requirement that a player knows in great detail the location and type of each Division, to create a good battle-plan the player will need to move their Divisions into positions that they feel will make that plan work and the more you can organise your forces to do this the better it is.
Simply assigning Divisions to an attack vector or dragging a box around Divisions and pointing them in the direction of the enemy is not a battle-plan.
What on earth do you base this on?
There were division templates in HOI3, too, that didn't stop me from building a multitude of different kinds of divisions. A div with three infantry and AT is vastly different from one with two infantry brigades, one Guards brigade and rocket artillery.
Yup. You build divisions based on battalions, not brigades. Ie. smaller pieces = far more ways to customize your armies = more variation. Then, as you say yourself, you've got models and variants now, so you don't just have "Armour", you have Panzer II, Panzer III, Panzer IV, not to mention variants of these (my Panzer IVB might be very different from my original Panzer IV). In other words, more variation, and more of a reason to have a good system for keeping track of your units.
Black ICE has a system similar to what HOI4 seems to be aiming for: you've got lots of building blocks, and countless ways to build divisions. Trust me, a good tool for keeping track of what is where is essential.
I don't understand. Do you imagine that you can create only one kind of infantry division, one type of tank division, etc.? Because if so, I strongly believe (and hope
What if you're wrong and you can create divisions freely like in HOI3? A light tank counter/model in HOI3 didn't tell me much when I had several types of divisions that happened to contain light tanks. Sure, I gave divisions different names, but you don't see those unless you've selected units, and to select them you need to actually find them.
I based the 6 divisions thing loosely on the idea that you'd probably want your own specialized template for each type of terrain type, "so mt, marine etc.", and then you'd probably want an easy to build "front-line" div, that's everywhere, then maybe a "Heavy-Front-Line" div, then breakthrough div types. Which is way less than HOI3's every unit can be different from everyother unit thing.
I referenced division templates because I'm pretty sure we were told that there would be real drawbacks from just having a buttload of different div templates, because it costs experience to update them all (add units to).
The third thing, yes they've gone to using multiple battalions, but I thought it was likely that you'll only be using your "optimal" division strategy, and as far as variants, and different types of armor are concerned, they don't get different battalions from what we've been told.. All those panzers will either be medium or light or heavy or S.heavy, and they each get one battalion for the purposes of division building, it's then how many of them you produce, or in which units you prioritize them that determines how many you have in a div.
The last thing, I've gone over already the two things this last quote addresses, the idea of only a few optimized division, and that multiple units will be in the same battalion. But further more as I've stated in a previous reply, you can of course then select sub-groups, or go through and select each specific div that you want, but accessing the whole stack is now much easier, you can zoom out and select all of them, rather than having to find each one on the map and telling them all to go to the same province just so you can organize them.
Exactly. There will be no fun at all, if all the game boils down to drawing three big arrows into Russia and watch the game won.
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I don't get what in HoI3's order of battle system allowed you to do this any more than you could in HoI2. I've never had any trouble directing my forces in Darkest Hour. HoI3 put a wall of pointless guff between me and effectively controlling my units, so I'm glad to see that wall go away.
Yes, because that's exactly how it's going to be...
Without HOI3's system:
"Okay, I'm ready to invade Yugoslavia. Now I just gotta send my five siege divisions to the Yugoslavian border... where did I leave them again? Let's see... god, my forces in France are a chaotic mess. Now, I can hover my mouse cursor over lots of units to see which ones contain heavy artillery brigades, or I could open the ledger and spend time looking them up and then use the province search feature to find the provinces and then select the divisions, one by one, and order them over. Or perhaps I could select large numbers of units and scan the list of divisions for the right ones. Gawd, this is gonna take time."
With HOI3's system:
1. Control-click Siege Division Corps.
2. Move to Yugoslavian border.
I would just have my heavy artillery divisions in an army called "heavy artillery army" and move that.
Here's an image of my last Germany game in DH before war broke out - I only had about a dozen or so armies, so it would take very little time to find one.
Here's an image of my last Germany game in DH before war broke out - I only had about a dozen or so armies, so it would take very little time to find one.
But my understanding is that you can't have an army called "heavy artillery army" or anything else with HOI IV. No Armies, Corps or Army Groups.
Hmm. That is strange, I would have thought there would be a mechanism for grouping units together like in HoI2, but I can't find a screenshot or video showing it.
Exactly and that is what people will do, they will within the limits of what is possible in HOI IV create some form of structure, they will create a PZ Corps or a PZ Army commanded by a single General because that is the logical thing to do if you want to organise your army.
What will be missing is a hierarchy a means to control the different parts of that structure as one if you so choose.
That is what many of us think is lacking in HOI IV. We want some persistent OOB, not just a temporary grouping commanded by a general.
The strategic importance of OOB's has been greatly undervalued if Paradox feels they can simply remove it in favour of nothing. Try playing a German campaign on very hard and tell me that OOB makes no difference. HOI II's system was great for its time, but now it feels like we are going backwards and not expanding the idea of an OOB any further. Point and click is all HOI II was - it's borderline unplayable compared to where HOI III is now.