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vaca_loca

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The best that I can think of saying here is that it's a game. Real life differences between societies have to be put aside for simpler, more generic gameplay rules that work and can be understood. History is a big part of the attraction in Paradox games but in the end you're playing a strategy game. People like to win and conquer the world, that's what most strategy games (and games in general) are about. Of course there is that old school hardcore crowd who like the bittersweetness Paradox games offer, and feel CK2 is too much on the sweet side. I'm sure you can find what you look for in the mod section. Don't get stuck on the naming and classification of things, use your imagination. If you think the only rightful Empire is the HRE, see others as regular kings with viceroys. If a certain kingdom shouldn't exist, think of it as a big duchy or grand-duchy.
 

Mehow_pwn

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I think we need more empires and more events plus more benfits in tittles.


Why haven't they added the polish-lithianuan-hungrian-bohemian empire as a Ahistical even though it did happened but it was more of kingdom rather than an empire. Just long after this period.
 

RustyTurban

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You guys know a shed load about History (much more than me) but I'd like to point out that maybe the 'Britannia' title isn't ahistorical. :eek:

This is around 920, Athelstan of England secured the overlordship of the Kings of Galloway, Scotland (Alba) and the numerous Welsh Kings and i'm fairly sure they gave him troops aswell. This is as mentioned a High-Kingship but in the game mechanics would be an Emperor with completely autonomous vassals.
Why does everybody always overlook Athelstan?

920 isn't even a stretch given how far back some of the De-jure titles go. I'm lookin at you Lotharingia :p

Bracing myself for the successor of Rome complaint. But history can change in game, the Pope could easily have looked to a super powerful Britannia or France if one existed to show two fingers to the H.R.E.
 

Avicenna

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Look - people keep referring back to Rome being the only emperors.

The Pope named a Frank 'Western Emperor' as an affront to the Byzantines - why not again?

To form an empire you need several kingdoms, how about it's an event when you hit the requirements - the Pope congratulates a holy uniter of Christendom, and invites you to stand as an anointed emperor. The HRE is as much of a joke as any of these - except it happened, a 'Roman' emperor based in Germany, in lands no roman controlled? That is an absurdity, the old 'neither holy, nor roman, nor an empire' line.

It's valid in terms of the game being 'crusader kings' - to form Scandinavia you need to have purged plenty of heathens, same with Spain. A Frankish emperor? Never seen that before...

I think an event would work - hit the requirements, message from the Pope, turn up in Rome, anointed as one of Christ's chosen, required to go on crusade etc, pay a hefty some to the pope... and if you don't want it you decline.

P.S. before anyone tries to trip me up on the history - there's plenty you could say to debunk what I've said, and there's plenty I could use to back it up - there's a lot of history to throw about...
 

unmerged(431840)

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What about adding another tier in-between King and Duke? This tier would include smaller kingdoms (Ireland, Wales, several of the Spanish ones) as well as the more important duchies, such as the German stem-duchies (Bavaria, Saxony, Franconia, etc..). Depending on culture (or independence status?) these places would be called kings or dukes. In elective monarchy the two lower tiers would get to vote. So let's look at the HRE:

The HRE would be tier-6 (empire). It would contain the tier-5 kingdoms of Germany and Italy, as well as the tier-4 kingdoms of Bohemia and Burgundy. Bohemia, Italy, and Burgundy would be broken up into tier-3 duchies. Germany would be broken up into tier-4 duchies (the stem duchies). Who could vote in HRE elections? Well since the HRE is tier-6 only the tier-5 and tier-4 vassals could vote. So the kings of Bohemia and Burgundy would get votes, but their duke-level vassals wouldn't. The king of Germany and all of his duke-level vassals (Bavaria etc...) would get to vote. This allows Italy to be made de jure part of the HRE without all of its dukes getting votes.

Now let's look at England. Being tier-5 it can have the king of Scotland as a vassal. If England is elective its tier-4 (lesser king/duke) and tier-3 level vassals (lesser duke) can vote. If Ireland (tier 4) is elective its tier 3 (lesser duke) and tier 2 (count) vassals vote.

Of course this system would be a major overhaul and thus almost certainly implemented, but I think that it would be good.
 

moldeh

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Oh no, ahistorical titles in a game where everything else is historical (lol)! I'd call Superman but apparently he just gave all that crap up.

I don't think Francia should be there. It's basically just france and that's annoying. If it weren't for the impossibility of it (with the HRE being an empire), the Carolingial Empire would be a better idea.
 

RaptorCommander

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Titular empires sound like the best of both worlds to me. It doesn't make sense that "ahistorical" empires are recognized in 1066, true.
But it does make sense that a ruler of multiple Kingdoms who is not HRE or ERE might, eventually, want to call himself something more than just "Dude X, King of Here, There, Somewhere, and Elsewhere" and starts going by "Dude X, Emperor of The Heres" (stupid name, I know. It doesn't matter, it's an example). It might even make sense that the claim gets recognized outside his realm if he keeps at it long enough. Even the pope would eventually agree after 10 years or more that those Kingdoms are united under the same guy.

Maybe make it a decision chain, the first event is a vote among your vassals, the second a request to the pope(or whatever recognized religious figure you have - if any). If both pass, you have an Empire you can name yourself, and all your current holdings become part of it De Facto. Of course, it will require time for them to become De Jure parts of the empire, but this last mechanic already exist.

That is how I imagined it, anyway :)

+1
 

TheChronoMaster

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Having them as De Jure is the only proper way to INFORM players that they exist within the engine at the moment -- I recall paradox mentioning that there's no clear way to show the capitals required for Titular titles.


If it bothers you, just make all of them Titular. It's not hard.
 

unmerged(431840)

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Having them as De Jure is the only proper way to INFORM players that they exist within the engine at the moment -- I recall paradox mentioning that there's no clear way to show the capitals required for Titular titles.

Yep, and this is a problem that Paradox should fix. They should show up on the de jure mapmodes (perhaps as a crown icon on the capital province) and there should be an alert when you can form one (or even if you are close).
 

Alerias

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Having them as De Jure is the only proper way to INFORM players that they exist within the engine at the moment -- I recall paradox mentioning that there's no clear way to show the capitals required for Titular titles.

If it bothers you, just make all of them Titular. It's not hard.

Ive been trying to actually and its a bit harder than I thought :D Im having an issue making proper "allowed" blocs with the conditions I want. For instance:

e_scandinavia = {
color={ 62 122 189 }
color2={ 255 255 0 }
capital = 290 # Uppland

culture = swedish

allow = {
title = k_sweden
title = k_norway
title = k_denmark
title = k_finland
}
}

This is one of the twelve different ways I've tried to build an 'Allow' block the game would recognize for a Titular Scandinavia, but it makes the empire impossible to create in game even if I have the four King-tier titles. Anyone could generously correct my (quite certainly) amateurish and obvious mistake?
 

Johnconner

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Because that's how medieval legitimacy worked. You didn't just get to make up titles. Empire meant Roman.
Did it really?
How exactly was the German Empire Roman?
I suppose that Japan and China were surprised to hear that definition, seeing as the first Chinese Emperor predated the first Roman Emperor.
What date the the definition of Empire change?
The Spanish during this period used the title or Emperor.
There was a Serbian Emperor in the mid 1300s.
There were dozens of other Emperors that had even less to do with Rome than the HRE did.
 

Dragassa

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I for one enjoy the new changes.
It is after all a game that allows you to create your own world
with a reasonable facsimile of historical, and ahistorical could possibly have been nations and
titles.
If we could not change some of what happened IRL in the game, then replayability would be zero.
I also hope Paradox doesn't listen to to only those who complain, and put just as much weight in those who buy, enjoy and play the game
instead of nitpicking them to death.
 

TheChronoMaster

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I for one enjoy the new changes.
It is after all a game that allows you to create your own world
with a reasonable facsimile of historical, and ahistorical could possibly have been nations and
titles.
If we could not change some of what happened IRL in the game, then replayability would be zero.
I also hope Paradox doesn't listen to to only those who complain, and put just as much weight in those who buy, enjoy and play the game
instead of nitpicking them to death.

The idea of the complainers isn't that being able to create the new empires is bad, it's that having them De Jure is bad.

Even though they aren't created at game start, claiming such titles would not have been readily accepted as legal by anyone at the time, so calling them De Jure titles is a fallacy.

I see the logic in their position, but I am okay with things as they are now for maximum clarity. Still, Titular would be ideal.
 

Johnconner

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The idea of the complainers isn't that being able to create the new empires is bad, it's that having them De Jure is bad.

Even though they aren't created at game start, claiming such titles would not have been readily accepted as legal by anyone at the time, so calling them De Jure titles is a fallacy.

I see the logic in their position, but I am okay with things as they are now for maximum clarity. Still, Titular would be ideal.
Does having them De Jure at the start change the game at all?
They are not formed, and as such do not have any affect on their De Jure vassals.
Furthermore the AI will not usually form them, so if you do not like them you just do not create them.
It is useful for new players however because it shows them where the titles are.
Do people really play the game in De Jure Empire map mode?
 

TheChronoMaster

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Does having them De Jure at the start change the game at all?
They are not formed, and as such do not have any affect on their De Jure vassals.
Furthermore the AI will not usually form them, so if you do not like them you just do not create them.
It is useful for new players however because it shows them where the titles are.
Do people really play the game in De Jure Empire map mode?


You're missing the point -- once they ARE formed, it makes no sense for other rulers to recognize the title as legal, not without some significant time, or special event.

Again, I am okay with how they are now -- but Titular would make more sense.
 

moldeh

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I just want Francia to go away. It's so absurdly stupid that I would delete the damn thing if I weren't such a lazy sob :p

There's this thing called FRANCE, bud. You can't add 5 provinces and say 'Awwww yeah, I gots me an empire here!!'. The other stuff is plausible, but Francia isn't, shouldn't be, couldn't possibly be.
 

OdinTGE

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The primary issue is that the added Empires are 'de jure' which is impossible as they never actually existed so how could they be de jure? The real solution? Having two or more kingdom titles should let you create a titular empire. Done, next issue.
 

Shadowkire

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You're missing the point -- once they ARE formed, it makes no sense for other rulers to recognize the title as legal, not without some significant time, or special event.

Again, I am okay with how they are now -- but Titular would make more sense.
But what if I don't care if other people don't recognizable me as emperor? If I control a bunch of kingdoms and my vassals stay as my vassals you can call me the Briefcase of Britannia, who is going to call me on it? The HRE? Give them a free CB on me, I relish the thought of putting those Pope-bootlickers in their place. And when I am done tearing down the center of Germany I will continue down through Italy and show that robed jackass why I don't like being excommunicated.

Oh, and what does the pre-existing de jure territory actually change? I get some de jure claims on counties? I guess there is no historical precedent for a guy who controlled a vast territory to suddenly say "Hey, I rule just about everything here so I think I should rule over you too"?
 
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Olaus Petrus

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You guys know a shed load about History (much more than me) but I'd like to point out that maybe the 'Britannia' title isn't ahistorical. :eek:

This is around 920, Athelstan of England secured the overlordship of the Kings of Galloway, Scotland (Alba) and the numerous Welsh Kings and i'm fairly sure they gave him troops aswell. This is as mentioned a High-Kingship but in the game mechanics would be an Emperor with completely autonomous vassals.
Why does everybody always overlook Athelstan?

920 isn't even a stretch given how far back some of the De-jure titles go. I'm lookin at you Lotharingia :p

Bracing myself for the successor of Rome complaint. But history can change in game, the Pope could easily have looked to a super powerful Britannia or France if one existed to show two fingers to the H.R.E.

The idea that Britain was alter orbis (another world) and empire by definition is very old and has survived for a long time. Britons had their fantasies where Constantinus Chlorus is ruler of the Britons and Arthur is emperor. Anglosaxons had this idea that one king can hold imperium (overlordship) over other Anglosaxon and British kings. Normans had the same idea and thought that native kings are below the King of England in hierarchy and the King of England is overlord of the entire British Isles. The idea survived till the modern era, but there was another equally strong idea: while Britain might be an empire, it's rulers were kings. It's true that some Anglosaxon kings played with imperial titles, but that was never their primary title. Æthelstan occasionally used title basileus, but most of the time he claimed to be rex totius Britanniae.

Look - people keep referring back to Rome being the only emperors.

The Pope named a Frank 'Western Emperor' as an affront to the Byzantines - why not again?

To form an empire you need several kingdoms, how about it's an event when you hit the requirements - the Pope congratulates a holy uniter of Christendom, and invites you to stand as an anointed emperor. The HRE is as much of a joke as any of these - except it happened, a 'Roman' emperor based in Germany, in lands no roman controlled? That is an absurdity, the old 'neither holy, nor roman, nor an empire' line.

It's valid in terms of the game being 'crusader kings' - to form Scandinavia you need to have purged plenty of heathens, same with Spain. A Frankish emperor? Never seen that before...

I think an event would work - hit the requirements, message from the Pope, turn up in Rome, anointed as one of Christ's chosen, required to go on crusade etc, pay a hefty some to the pope... and if you don't want it you decline.

P.S. before anyone tries to trip me up on the history - there's plenty you could say to debunk what I've said, and there's plenty I could use to back it up - there's a lot of history to throw about...

Why not indeed? This is oversimplification, but it could be said that whoever holds the Italy holds the key to becoming an Emperor. As long as the Holy Roman Emperors are the kings of Italy and can march their armies to Rome and install antipope, the real pope isn't willing to crown another emperor. :)
 

Staal

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I am very glad they added the ability to create new kingdoms and empires but I am surprised they made them de jure. I was hoping for titular ones for the same reason as being mentioned here; so that it is tough to do and that it is afterall really heavy alternate history.

The idea of the complainers isn't that being able to create the new empires is bad, it's that having them De Jure is bad.

I dare say (haven't check) that the biggest complainers about de jure rights are the ones that were originally dredging up page long history lessons in February/March why they didn't even want titular kingdoms/empires.

I only started playing the game again now because this has been added.
 
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