Doctrines : The Sound and the Fury

[unmerged(3902)]

I sat down this evening to determine precisely what the differences were between the various doctrines. I've listed the results below for fully developed examples of each doctrinal path.

Methodology:

Load up the 1936 game as Nationalist China, a nation which starts with no doctrines at all. Manually examine each and every possible doctrine and write it down. Then add up the results. This also allowed me to calculate the "base" org and morale values for units, which appear to be 30/30.

Notes:

1) Base e.g. before you use any doctrines at all, Org and Morale appear to be 30.

2) I'm not listing the combat event modifiers as they ended up being relatively similar between doctrines and they take up way too much space and make this post into a novel.

Human Wave:
Org +40
Morale +110
Infantry Cost -0.6 IC/Day
Cavalry Cost -0.4 IC/Day
Milita Cost -0.2 IC/Day
Motorized Cost -2.1 IC/Day
Mechanized Cost -2.1
Armored Cost -1.6

Spearhead:
Org + 70
Morale +50
Light Armor -3.3
Armor -3.2
Infantry +0.1
Mechanized -2.1
Motorized -1.6

Superior Firepower:
Org +80
Morale +80
Infantry + 0.1
Motorized -2.8 IC/Day
Mechanizeed -2.1 IC/Day

Grand Battle*:
Org + 40
Morale + 100
Infantry -1.2

* Grand Battle has three possible subspecialties. I picked infiltration for this example.

Comments:

1) The cost reductions look bigger than they are. 3.3 IC's per day saved on armor means, for example, that the Germans pay 23.7 IC/Day for an Advanced Medium Tank instead of 27 IC/Day for a net savings of 13%.

2) Proportionately the biggest savings is that the firepower doctrine gives you about 1/5 off on motorized dvisions.

3) The relative org difference between the most organized army (superior firepower) and the least organized (human wave) is 110:70 or 1bout 1.57:1.

4) The doctrines appear to be relatively "balanced" in that no one doctrine is demonstrably superior to another. The German Spearhead doctrine which, for example, we'd probably expect to be vastly superior to the Soviet Human Wave doctrine, bluntly, isn't.

 

[ConcordantNexus]

cool - (I just printed it out for my reference) can we convince you to:

1.) work out all the permutations of Grand Battle

2.) do the same for Air Doctrines

3.) do the same for Naval Doctrines

4.) post the results on the Wiki or pass them on to Rafiki so that he can do it?

muchly obliged if you were to do so!

 

[unmerged(33990)]

I'm not 100% sure but I think that in 1939 a nation that has followed Spearhed path has more doctrines and more effects from them than anybody else. After that the theoretical lead starts to dilute.

 

[el freako]

Looking at the tech tree here is the base org and morale for each year (assuming techs are researched in the 'Historical Year')

I have split it into American (Superior Firepower) British (Grand Battle Plan/Operational Stages) German (Spearhead) Soviet (Human Wave) Japanese (Grand Battle Plan/Infiltration Assault) and Italian/French (Grand Battle Plan/Attritional Containment)

Organization/Morale:
American (Superior Firepower)
1936: 50% / 30%
1938: 60% / 40%
1939: 60% / 50%
1940: 60% / 60%
1942: 70% / 60%
1943: 90% / 80%

British (Grand Battle Plan/Operational Stages)
1936: 50% / 50%
1940: 60% / 60%
1942: 85% / 60%

German (Spearhead)
1936: 50% / 30%
1937: 60% / 60%
1938: 70% / 80%
1939: 75% / 80%
1940: 80% / 80%
1941: 90% / 80%
1943: 100% / 80%

Soviet (Human Wave)
1936: 40% / 80%
1937: 50% / 80%
1940: 50% / 100%
1941: 70% / 100%
1943: 70% / 140%

Japanese (Grand Battle Plan/Infiltration Assault)
1936: 50% / 50%
1940: 60% / 60%
1942: 70% / 110%

French/Italian (Grand Battle Plan/Attritional Containment)
1936: 50% / 50%
1940: 60% / 60%
1942: 75% / 70%
1944: 75% / 95%

 

[unmerged(33990)]

Those morale bonuses are pretty sweet...

 

[unmerged(11633)]

Well, yesterday I posted a proposed change to doctrine and sliders

here.

IMO the biggest difference in unmodded HOI 2 is with infiltration and its hefty night attack bonuses.

You can also see the base org/morale of different units in the relevant units file. Marines, mountain and para have base org of 40.

 

[unmerged(2238)]

Yes, I see doctrines as the main engine that differentiates units from different countries, which I think is a great system. The problem right now is I don't necessarily think they have the doctrine balance right yet, but I think all it's going to take is a matter of time and some testing to really come up with a killer doctrine system that really differentiates the different nations.

Everyone in the other thread wanted different unit strengths, etc, but I think we can do the same things better with the doctrine strength in terms of letting you decide what type of force you have compared to other armies.

 

[Smoked_peasant]

I definitely agree that better diversification of the doctrinal tree is the best way to improve flavor... I wouldn't mind seeing some more diversity in it to. I think that there should be a little more freedom in developing your doctrines. Right now, for instance with Commiterm Human-Wave tactics, there is no choices at all. It's just a matter of collecting all the techs in a linear manner. (Well, it's sort of a challenge, as the Soviets are lacking early in anyone talented in army doctrine training [that or I didn't notice till late 39 that one talented General] anyways) However, they do cleverly position the rather tiny Human Wave tech tree in between the Spearhead doctrine, so as to make it look like they might share some end-techs (which would be a lot of fun, and from my understanding the Soviets developed similar principles to win battles as the Germans anyways.) perhaps.

At any rate, I think the doctrinal tech tree should limit and allow for land units; what I mean is that theoretically you can develop everything you want in infantry armor and brigade attachments and use them as you see fit without any regard to the doctrines your army is supposed to be following. An example would be the French using large formations of armor to encircle and supported with mechanized infantry to devour the chewy pockets of enemy, when you know damn well that's not what the French should be doing, according to the doctrines given. Granted, you can't stop someone from using logical field tactics, but you should perhaps limit such a nation's capacity to field the right sort of field units to do that. Conversely, they should be able to use combinations that weren't feasible before... maybe heavy tanks with infantry? (AFAIK regular infantry can't use them as attachments. But, I've honestly only played as Russia all the way through... maybe I'm talking out my ass?

 

[String]

I think it needs to be added that Infiltration Assault gives very good bonuses to night move and combat, and might i remidn you that night combat and moves take up half of the game time

 

[unmerged(11610)]

Its only going up! Is it possible that organisation / morale will decrease when war isn't going well? (I don't think so) At least morale should change if you loose provinces and would go up when you invade them or even better if morale will increase if you WIN battles and loosing will of course... You know. That would be interesting.

Now loosing will decrease your industrial output only and drain your manpower. Finally you need to reduce your army size, if you ran into problem of low manpower. Probably this lead to making smaller but even better/newer army to your nation. It's totally upside down what happened in real life. When manpower decreased, it was needed to bring 'B/C class' people (second line troops) in fight. Example German Volksgrenadier divisions were more like a militia (IRL, not that bad fighting unit, but close to it). I would like to see that in HOI2. Is it possible somehow with current engine?

 

[Zanza]

1) The cost reductions look bigger than they are. 3.3 IC's per day saved on armor means, for example, that the Germans pay 23.7 IC/Day for an Advanced Medium Tank instead of 27 IC/Day for a net savings of 13%.

The bonuses/penalties are relative. So, the German path should give you a -20% cost on all armored units, not a fixed -3.3 IC.

 

[unmerged(27729)]

maybe I'm talking out my ass?

Nope, you're not.

I think that the units themselves should also be a little different for each country. As it is now each country copies every other country's tank/plane/ship down to the exact combat values. This can get dull quick.

 

[Stonewall]

One of the most important and overlooked aspects of the various doctrines is the historical year at which each can be deeloped. The German path can be well developed by 1940, giving the Germans a temporary advantage in morale and org. Gradually, the other doctrines catch up in 1943 and 1944, putting the confrontation on more even terms. So, if you're going to go to war early, Spearhead is by far the best doctrine to have. If you can wait until 1943 and 1944 to launch your counteroffensives, any of the doctrines will do.

 

[unmerged(11633)]

One of the most important and overlooked aspects of the various doctrines is the historical year at which each can be deeloped. The German path can be well developed by 1940, giving the Germans a temporary advantage in morale and org. Gradually, the other doctrines catch up in 1943 and 1944, putting the confrontation on more even terms. So, if you're going to go to war early, Spearhead is by far the best doctrine to have. If you can wait until 1943 and 1944 to launch your counteroffensives, any of the doctrines will do.

Actually, as it currently stands the doctrine years for the Blitzkrieg doctrines and the Human Wave Doctrines are virtually identical. Kampfgruppe and Large Formation SOP both have historical year of 1941, so Human wave is actually the same speed as Blitzkrieg. The firepower doctrine techs are indeed slower.

 

[Zanza]

I agree, the historical years for some of the Soviet Doctrines should be moved back by one or two years.

 

[unmerged(33990)]

I agree, the historical years for some of the Soviet Doctrines should be moved back by one or two years.

But the german doctrines are more advantageous at early point. For example the Pocket Defence gives really small bonuses...

 

[Peter Ebbesen]

Actually, as it currently stands the doctrine years for the Blitzkrieg doctrines and the Human Wave Doctrines are virtually identical. Kampfgruppe and Large Formation SOP both have historical year of 1941, so Human wave is actually the same speed as Blitzkrieg. The firepower doctrine techs are indeed slower.

However, looking at a hypothetical war in '39 and assuming all techs researched up to that year for all paths, the Spearhead is ahead of every single of its competitors. Looking at year '41, Spearhead is STILL ahead of every single competitor. To catch up quantitatively in org and morale does not happen until earliest '43, and for the US and UK doctrines, it never happens.

If I may do a brief commercial for the Human Wave (which one does not see clearly from pcasey's numbers above), I would draw attention to the great spendings on infantry one can gain in the mid-game. Since the later doctrines increase infantry costs corresponding with the new mech/armoured focus, just seeing -0.6 IC/day as the end result does not give the right impression of the Wave at work. At its best spot (before SOP is researched), it is -1.2 IC/day, 17% off, which is very nice indeed - if one likes infantry.