Doctrines Increasing Supply/Fuel Consumption: WAD?

[Evil4Zerggin]

Yes, researching even Militia doctrines will cause your Militia to start using fuel (not to mention taking more IC/time to build, but apparently that part is WAD). Is doctrines increasing supply/fuel consumption WAD?

A side note: upgrades increasing both IC and build time of units means that eventually the attack per IC-day you get by building a unit starts decreasing, since the number of IC-days increases quadratically, but the attack only linearly. For example, if you don't skip any upgrades, Mechanized gets less Soft Attack per IC-day in 1946 than it did in 1936! Back in HoI2 most upgrades increased IC cost only; I can understand the rationale behind both IC and time increases, but the combined effect seems a little drastic (though of course I wouldn't go so far as to skip upgrades just for that reason).

 

[Funkman3140]

so your saying since stuff becomes more complicated and more advanced it shouldnt take longer to build?

 

[Evil4Zerggin]

No. The first part is that I'm saying that providing better training for your soldiers shouldn't increase how much fuel they use. The second part is that the rate at which equipment becomes more expensive is rather drastic.

 

[delra]

so your saying since stuff becomes more complicated and more advanced it shouldnt take longer to build?

Doctrines don't cost squat to upgrade your units to. No IC and only one day to switch all your infantry (800 brigades) to next Infantry Warfare. That's why you should research them before you research equipment.

About the fuel+supply, I bet it's all some sort of a fix to improve supply network.
About IC-days, probably a balancing call to slow down construction a bit when everyone is mobilized.
Both guesswork.

 

[TheBob]

So they cost more IC-days, but since they are better overall, aren't they also more manpower efficient? Additionally, since they fight better, they need less repair IC and are less likely to be destroyed. Maybe IC neutral or beneficial in the long run.

 

[Evil4Zerggin]

As I stated in the OP, I'm not saying upgrades aren't worth it; I'm just saying their effect on unit cost is rather drastic. For example, due to upgrade cost increases, Mechanized is not actually appreciably cheaper than Armour (and actually becomes more expensive than Armour within a few years of its introduction).

 

[SickMonkey]

Wouldn't the practical bonus you're likely to have later in the game more than compensate for the increase in base cost?

 

[Funkman3140]

Wouldn't the practical bonus you're likely to have later in the game more than compensate for the increase in base cost?

thats what i was thinking.

i always play Random Scenario mod and my infantry is up to 1948.. when i first started with 1 practicality it took like 140 days to train infantry and it hasnt risen above 85 or so days in like 5 years..

so to say iv never ever seen this increase in IC days increase.

i can actually understand fuel because they use something like .3 fuel.. i mean common.. everyone drives cars, reinforcement trucks, supply trucks, petrol has a lot of uses on the battlefield not just for going in tanks. like burning poo, flame throwers, militia use Molotov's.

guess im thinking to realistic :rofl:

 

[Funkman3140]

Doctrines don't cost squat to upgrade your units to. No IC and only one day to switch all your infantry (800 brigades) to next Infantry Warfare. That's why you should research them before you research equipment.

About the fuel+supply, I bet it's all some sort of a fix to improve supply network.
About IC-days, probably a balancing call to slow down construction a bit when everyone is mobilized.
Both guesswork.

I know doctrines don't cost anything except the time and leadership to research them. i was asking since things become more complicated, stuff shouldn't take longer? kind of a rhetorical question i guess.

i mean common look at anything we have now days. it takes frigging years and billions of dollars and hundreds of man hours to build the military aircraft and what not. im sure it didn't cost a the same amount back in the 1940's..

sorry ranting...

 

[TheDarkside]

Yeah I noticed this as well. It just doesn't make much sense.

It is a static 0.01 units of fuel and supply increase per every level of tech that unit has, be it doctrine, special equipment or whatever.

This means an infantry which get mountain equipment researched have the same fuel consumption added to them as a super heavy tank getting upgraded armor.

 

[Evil4Zerggin]

Wouldn't the practical bonus you're likely to have later in the game more than compensate for the increase in base cost?

Depends what country you're playing. Minors won't get much practical at all in any year, and majors may get enough to max out their practical in the fields they are focused on. In any case I doubt it will continue to increase drastically.

More to the point, the presence of practical doesn't mitigate the differences between upgraded and unupgraded units, and units which rely on small and large number of upgrades (if anything, it makes the differences more stark).

i mean common look at anything we have now days. it takes frigging years and billions of dollars and hundreds of man hours to build the military aircraft and what not. im sure it didn't cost a the same amount back in the 1940's..

Fine, I see your point in terms of real life, but I still think in terms of gameplay the effect is a bit too strong for some units (most notably, Mechanized).

i can actually understand fuel because they use something like .3 fuel.. i mean common.. everyone drives cars, reinforcement trucks, supply trucks, petrol has a lot of uses on the battlefield not just for going in tanks. like burning poo, flame throwers, militia use Molotov's.

But a Militia division going from using nothing to using as much as a tank brigade?

 

[Alex_brunius]

Since the buildcost part is WAD I suspect the supply part is too.

I think its more logical that supply & fuel consumption is increased since you can actually argue those are abstracted costs for manoeuvres and training to implement your new doctrines.

 

[Jazumir]

Still, Darkside´s point remains, that there should be some scaling to it, according to unit-types. I agree with that.

 

[Federkiel]

Umm, BTW., what percentage of their default consumption rate do static, not fighting units use? Where can i look the numbers up while playing?

 

[unmerged(76762)]

This seems like it would be easily taken care of in a mod. I havent looked into modding for HOI3 at all but still only seems like it would be a script edit.

 

[Alex_brunius]

I know doctrines don't cost anything except the time and leadership to research them. i was asking since things become more complicated, stuff shouldn't take longer? kind of a rhetorical question i guess.

i mean common look at anything we have now days. it takes frigging years and billions of dollars and hundreds of man hours to build the military aircraft and what not. im sure it didn't cost a the same amount back in the 1940's..

sorry ranting...

It did. the relative costs of war material was just as large since the economy have been growing too at the same pace as the costs.

Things are just produced a little faster in wartime, that's all.

This seems like it would be easily taken care of in a mod. I havent looked into modding for HOI3 at all but still only seems like it would be a script edit.

Feel free to point me to that script, so far looking at the code it seems to be hardcoded.

 

[Funkman3140]

But a Militia division going from using nothing to using as much as a tank brigade?

im really not trying to under mine your point.. i do see why it would be a pain in the arse. but you gotta think. how much fuel does a medium tank brigade use? and if each tech increases with .01 that would be like 250 techs at .25 so you would need like 1000 techs to get to the fuel of a medium tank brigade?

when you look at numbers like that its really dumb that infantry should require fuel.

also on the mech part yeah if IC and IC days multiply exponentially because of techs it doesnt really make sense.

i could understand if maybe it were techs for the rocket interceptor, or secret projects like jet fighters at that time but not mech.

 

[Funkman3140]

i gotta quick lil question.

how come money has no factor in building planes or tanks like it does in real life in HOI3? i know USA spent hundreds of billions of dollars to companies to build their war materials. how does it all work in HOI3? lol are all the factories government owned and all you get is a hot bowl of soup and some bread for your days pay? lol

 

[Alex_brunius]

im really not trying to under mine your point.. i do see why it would be a pain in the arse. but you gotta think. how much fuel does a medium tank brigade use? and if each tech increases with .01 that would be like 250 techs at .25 so you would need like 1000 techs to get to the fuel of a medium tank brigade?

Except that 250 techs would be 2.5 fuel usage, not 0.25...

 

[unmerged(171517)]

Are you certain doctrines increase fuel usage of militia, the only militia related changes I could find was as follows;
peoples_army = {
militia_brigade = { default_organisation = 5 }
partisan_brigade = { default_organisation = 5 }
garrison_brigade = { default_organisation = 5 }
police_brigade = { default_organisation = 5 }

large_formations = {
militia_brigade = { combat_width = -0.5 }
partisan_brigade = { combat_width = -0.5 }

Unless an increase in organisation increases fuel usage there must be some other cause of your fuel usage.

I am also unaware of any IC or time changes based on new technology - any insightes into what they are would be appreciated as I am operating under the impression technological advances have no effect on IC cost, time to build, supply or fuel usage.