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Yes. You make barebones design with coastal design bureau, resulting in 25% cheaper "battleship". "Naval Refit Yards" spirit supposedly (did not bother to check) boosts refit speed by 25% (wording suggests that it's multiplicative). Thus, by refitting that "battleship" into proper template (with "good" design bureau - no point in keeping penalties) you save another 20% cost off extra modules, and save a bit on metal (each battleship turret makes you pay extra metal per dockyard for the whole duration of construction, after all) - the whole process nets you some 22-23% cheaper ship (compared to simply building a "good" template) plus some change in metal (which might be an issue for some countries).
Isnt there a ‘minimum’ cost to refitting? I remember refitting cost/time was surprisingly high when I was only adding a single gun or something to a design, even when the overall cost went down.

Even with this factored in its still noticeably cheaper?
 

HugsAndSnuggles

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Isnt there a ‘minimum’ cost to refitting? I remember refitting cost/time was surprisingly high when I was only adding a single gun or something to a design, even when the overall cost went down.

Even with this factored in its still noticeably cheaper?
Honestly, I mostly ignored it. Barebones design is something like half the cost of the final ship (this alone built by coastal designer will make it more than 10% cheaper). Everything on top, even if we assume 60% final cost (due to "base") gets reduced by spirit, so you should end up with 0.4*0.75+0.6*0.8 = 78% IC cost for the whole ship.
 
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Honestly, I mostly ignored it. Barebones design is something like half the cost of your ship (this alone built by coastal designer will make it more than 10% cheaper). Everything on top, even if we assume 60% final cost (due to "base") gets reduced by spirit, so you should end up with 0.4*0.75+0.6*0.8 = 78% IC cost for the whole ship.
Oh wait I see youre specifically using the designer to drop down the cost. Ok that makes more sense.

I was trying to find a way to make POS barebones ships just to get them out, then refitting them with the spirit at lower overall cost.
 
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Oh wait I see youre specifically using the designer to drop down the cost. Ok that makes more sense.

I was trying to find a way to make POS barebones ships just to get them out, then refitting them with the spirit at lower overall cost.
I did a quick experiment with this actually cause Im nuts (as the USA). 10\10 factories assumed.

To make a piece of crap cruiser cheap as I could costs about 2530
To make an ‘elite’ one with multiple weapons costs 4033

Making one outright takes 124 days
Making a piece of crap then refitting takes a total of 128

So evidently not worth it, but close, possibly for the super expensive big boys where you exceed x2 the cost like carriers or battleships itd be good.

Problem is that oddly the refit speed thing seems to be an additive bonus, not multiplicative from the numbers I crunched…so the more production bonuses you get, like from research or stability, the less meaningful.
 
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How can you have the same base ship with 2 designers? I thought you get only the one present at the moment when research finishes? Or a new NSB feature?
I think they mean:

-make a bunch of ships with the ‘cheap’ quantity designer
-Change to a ‘quality’ designer and refit them very slightly or make no real equipment changes, so they get the bonuses but their base and overall cost decreased even with the refit addition

Its take 60 pp and a handful of naval exp to pull it off.

I did a quick test of this on a cruiser, you can save 12 days overall of production per cruiser compared to if you just got the ‘quality’ designer outright. Its super weird but yeah itd work if you wanted to put the effort into it lol
 
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HugsAndSnuggles

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How can you have the same base ship with 2 designers? I thought you get only the one present at the moment when research finishes? Or a new NSB feature?
New NSB feature: when you change design/make a variant, it applies effect of currently active design bureau.
 
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Problem is that oddly the refit speed thing seems to be an additive bonus, not multiplicative from the numbers I crunched…so the more production bonuses you get, like from research or stability, the less meaningful.
Then will just have to be content with swapping out complete templates. Still gets non-coastal designers some niche use.
 

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2-stage production for ships being beneficial is not new, it was mostly a resource saving measure. Especially for japan, because they lack steel.

The other utility of this was pushing out the hulls you want, before you had the modules you wanted unlocked. This would allow you to make more efficient use of your yards before you unlock the complete design, to ultimately end up with more of the design you want.

Being able to refit design companies and having it be cheaper/faster than before (at cost of some xp) is just a straight buff. Naval doctrines themselves dont really matter unless base strike.
 
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2-stage production for ships being beneficial is not new, it was mostly a resource saving measure. Especially for japan, because they lack steel.

The other utility of this was pushing out the hulls you want, before you had the modules you wanted unlocked. This would allow you to make more efficient use of your yards before you unlock the complete design, to ultimately end up with more of the design you want.

Being able to refit design companies and having it be cheaper/faster than before (at cost of some xp) is just a straight buff. Naval doctrines themselves dont really matter unless base strike.
I don't really agree with this. Battleships were never good to build in the first place, and the ships that were being built were cheap enough that doing two stage production never seemed worth it to me.

As for the last part of what you said, as far as I know trade interdiction has been considered better than base strike for several years now, unless you're the air controller.
 
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I don't really agree with this. Battleships were never good to build in the first place, and the ships that were being built were cheap enough that doing two stage production never seemed worth it to me.
I'm not talking about battleships, I'm talking about the light-attack cruisers. Cruiser hull 3 wants 2 steel, 6 guns would bump that up to 8. If you only put 2 guns on the production model, it would be 4 steel to produce and 4 steel to refit, and all you're paying is something like 400 IC for the basic refit cost. To halve your steel consumption. If this spirit makes the refit comparatively cheaper, there becomes less and less of a reason not to do this.
As for the last part of what you said, as far as I know trade interdiction has been considered better than base strike for several years now, unless you're the air controller.
That is the dynamic I was referring to with the exception, base strike buffing non-carrier planes. But naval doctrines compared to other doctrines, don't really have the same amount of power boosts. As much as its said TI is the meta pick, it is really only that one particular tech that reduces your visibility that matters in the whole doctrine. Unless you're doing subs.
 

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Yes. You make barebones design with coastal design bureau, resulting in 25% cheaper "battleship". "Naval Refit Yards" spirit supposedly (did not bother to check) boosts refit speed by 25% (wording suggests that it's multiplicative). Thus, by refitting that "battleship" into proper template (with "good" design bureau - no point in keeping penalties) you save another 20% cost off extra modules, and save a bit on metal (each battleship turret makes you pay extra metal per dockyard for the whole duration of construction, after all) - the whole process nets you some 22-23% cheaper ship (compared to simply building a "good" template) plus some change in metal (which might be an issue for some countries).
Yes it does work like this.

I played a Greece game earlier today and via decision got pretty much completed production of 2 Pre-Dreadnaughts(I was going Historical)

When I got them done I decided to refit them while I had Mediterranian designer on and by only adding on some AA and secondaries it gained the speed from Med Designer. In this Update, when you make a varient your CURRENT designer will be applied, this applies to Tanks, to Airplanes, and to Boats as well.

All in All you Can make your BBs with its Guns with Coastal Defense designer to make the chunky bits cheap, and then switch to your Battlefleet designer to make a varient, adding on Fire Control, RADAR, Secondaries, and AA to get your BBs Converted for Cheap

Bear in Mind that Adding or Removing Main Guns, Belts, and Engines are Really, Really, Expensive meaning you want those on and not to change them, else The Cost to Refit might be more than the cost to make a new boat

Still though this is a bit too stinky of cheese for my tastes, but I'm sure ya'll will find some use of this theory that'd require entirely too much micro for my tastes
 
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And transport planes are still costly in their own right too, and you need to control the air for them to work effectively too.

If youre bursting with unlimited production sure, youre right. But Id say for most nations this would be prohibitively expensive when you start factoring in all those costs compared to alternatives.
Keep in mind you're replying to someone who's framing this all in min-max MP mode, where it's all about gaming the game, and little about actual war. Sure, in his view, the numbers tell him there's only one way to go, because the spreadsheet says. 'Gamey' or 'historical' carries no weight when the numbers say he's right.

Not saying he's wrong to play he does. He has every right to do so. Just don't be surprised about his assumptions, once you know where they come from.
 

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I'm not talking about battleships, I'm talking about the light-attack cruisers. Cruiser hull 3 wants 2 steel, 6 guns would bump that up to 8. If you only put 2 guns on the production model, it would be 4 steel to produce and 4 steel to refit, and all you're paying is something like 400 IC for the basic refit cost. To halve your steel consumption. If this spirit makes the refit comparatively cheaper, there becomes less and less of a reason not to do this.

That is the dynamic I was referring to with the exception, base strike buffing non-carrier planes. But naval doctrines compared to other doctrines, don't really have the same amount of power boosts. As much as its said TI is the meta pick, it is really only that one particular tech that reduces your visibility that matters in the whole doctrine. Unless you're doing subs.
This may be my personal preferences showing through, but when I initially did my playthroughs on MtG way back then I did pick all the best stuff, but as time progressed I learned that making your ships with the shiniest modules isn't neccissarily the best option. Bear with me Here:

Going from '36 Light Cruiser Guns to '40 Light Cruiser guns there's a whole difference of 1 SA and 1 SPiercing compared to the increased cost of 1 steel per gun added, Honestly I'd say chilling on using that and instead going more for things such as more advanced fire control or better shells would serve you better since it makes it so that your CL only costs 2 steel per dockyard instead of 8, has the exact same HP, and is 150 IC cheaper in exchange for 6 SA and 1 Piercing

But time to get to Number Crunching time.
I got LC: Control which is a SALC according to your standards with 6x LC Gun III. Its cost to Produce is 5,651
and I got LC B which is a refit of LC C(which is the hull+2 guns): The cost to Refit is 1,840, on top of the initial cost of 4,183 for a combined total of 6,023

Because how the wording of the spirit can be, I decided to do a test wherein I measured how long it would take for LC1 to produce, and how long it would take to produce LC3 and then refit it into LC2(I already made some LC 3s via IC for this test, obviously)

The Time it takes to Produce a SALC in one go is 192 Days with 10 dockyards on it
The Time it takes to produce CL C is 142 days, and it takes 76 days to convert into a SALC for a total of 218 Days

And, of course, these tests were done with the Naval Refit Yards Spirit on

Bear in mind that there are modules that the devs made disproportionately harder to refit compared to something like Secondaries or AA, for instance a LC turret III costs 300 to make, but to add it onto an existing LC costs 822 IC. A LC Belt refit can cost somewhere in the range of 90-95% of the cost(something to note, however, is that if you DO NOT have a belt on the ship it actually doesn't cost that much, for instance reducing the CL's Belt from II to I costs 3,825 IC, but putting a LC Belt I/II onto Italy's Unarmored Montecuccoli Class of LCs costs a total of 437/456 IC), and Engines with a refit cost similarly to changing the Belt, and this ain't just for Cruisers this applies to every ship(even though for DDs and Subs you might not notice it easily since both are rather cheap)
 
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I got LC: Control which is a SALC according to your standards with 6x LC Gun III. Its cost to Produce is 5,651
Why would you make a CL? One of those guns is supposed to be heavy attack, so you can shift it to the capital line so you can benefit from the +40% hit rate. Which would lower the gun3 advantage down to only +5 attack, but here's the thing.

Total attacks across the fleet matters less than the amount of attacks any one particular ship has. If an attack hits, it deals all of that attack in damage (with some mods) to the target ship. This is a lot more like typical shooter games where getting hit by a bullet deals X damage. An important aspect about shooter games, is hits-to-kill. With the random targeting in hoI4 though, the more enemy ships you have to pick from, the less likely you will pick the same ship multiple times, which means that if you need to hit the ship multiple times to sink it, you're less likely to. This puts a lot of stress onto stacking your attacks high enough to get into the 1-shot bracket. Against DD3 which has 50 HP, going from 40 to 45 (before ammunition and admiral and FCS and FCM) means that you don't need as many bonuses to be able to reliably 1-hit those DD, and/or you can eat more penalty (positioning) and still be able to 1-shot. You also have to account for the +/- 15% damage swing.
 
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HugsAndSnuggles

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Problem is that oddly the refit speed thing seems to be an additive bonus, not multiplicative from the numbers I crunched…so the more production bonuses you get, like from research or stability, the less meaningful.
Check this claim out of interest. It is, indeed, additive, but to production efficiency (which is not buffed by anything else, to my knowledge):
20220106132421_1.jpg20220106133309_1.jpg20220106133345_1.jpg
It seems only to be a 20% bonus, though - not as much as advertised, but still pretty good. Will require some micro for smaller ships, of course: a lot of work gets wasted with default 10 dockyards assigned.
 

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Check this claim out of interest. It is, indeed, additive, but to production efficiency (which is not buffed by anything else, to my knowledge):
View attachment 791904View attachment 791905View attachment 791906
It seems only to be a 20% bonus, though - not as much as advertised, but still pretty good. Will require some micro for smaller ships, of course: a lot of work gets wasted with default 10 dockyards assigned.
Looks like it is actually an output bonus and is the full 25%, but because it is additive the existing stability and export focus make it less effective.
 
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Sep 3, 2016
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Looks like it is actually an output bonus and is the full 25%, but because it is additive the existing stability and export focus make it less effective.
Yeah, I guess it makes more sense. So realistically it would end up being some 15% bonus instead.
 
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