Doctrinal Troubles

[Septawn]

Perhaps this has been discussed already or is being addressed in the Beta, but after watching www3 I have a concern regarding doctrine research. Germany was researching the final piece of Mobile Warfare...in 1940.

I think there needs to be some kind of slowdown on doctrine research. I don't know if a year cap like equipment or just a general increase in research time is the best route but It doesn't seem right to finish a doctrine tree in 1940.

 

[Oerdin]

Rather than a slow down I would rather see them add more techs to research. I admit that would make it harder to balance everything though.

 

[calebmarkle]

One thing you should consider is it was Germany who was maxing out their doctrine tree. If I remember correctly Germany has a few national focuses that speed up doctrine research, plus starts further in their own tree then other countries. So Germany would've finished mid 1940, but other countries it might be closer to 1942-1943. Especially France who would be delayed longer due to their 75% longer doctrine research.

 

[Septawn]

One thing you should consider is it was Germany who was maxing out their doctrine tree. If I remember correctly Germany has a few national focuses that speed up doctrine research, plus starts further in their own tree then other countries. So Germany would've finished mid 1940, but other countries it might be closer to 1942-1943. Especially France who would be delayed longer due to their 75% longer doctrine research.

I know that Germany (and I'm sure others) get bonuses and thats fine, I'm okay with Germany being ahead but not finished before the war even starts. It seems like a huge balance problem. As for France, I'm okay with that. It's a unique challenge for them.

 

[Amur_Tiger]

There's a few things going on with that, for one Germany does iirc have the bonuses towards researching doctrines as Septawn mentions and doctrines don't have years attached to them so racing ahead is easier. It might be good to have some mild XP requirements to get past certain levels in tech to at least prevent people from reaching the end until they've gone to war but there's some side effects with this that might prove worse then the disease, needs some thought.

 

[Cinigs]

IRL most doctrines were created in the interwar period.

 

[Septawn]

IRL most doctrines were created in the interwar period.

Sure, but this a video game.

 

[shri]

I am more bothered about the UK getting the 5th slot for research so early- 1937 than Germany researching Doctrines (that sounded more a-historical).
Also a minor can "theoretically" get the 4th slot by late 1937 or early 1938; making them equal to Italy/Japan in research.

 

[Septawn]

I am more bothered about the UK getting the 5th slot for research so early- 1937 than Germany researching Doctrines (that sounded more a-historical).
Also a minor can "theoretically" get the 4th slot by late 1937 or early 1938; making them equal to Italy/Japan in research.

Well, Germany could have gotten their 5th much earlier but Jakob and Troy just didn't get it. I think they got distracted by other tasks and don't have an optimized focus order in their heads.

 

[Denkt]

Well each doctrine tech is quite expensive and both players in the wednesday stream lack many technologies that are not ahead in time.

 

[Zaku]

One thing you should consider is it was Germany who was maxing out their doctrine tree. If I remember correctly Germany has a few national focuses that speed up doctrine research, plus starts further in their own tree then other countries. So Germany would've finished mid 1940, but other countries it might be closer to 1942-1943. Especially France who would be delayed longer due to their 75% longer doctrine research.

Johan was also working on maxing it out in the 2nd(or 1st?) WWW video, he even made a comment about it being a no brainer. You can see it in the last video that he is researching assault breakthrough in 1939 sep. That is I think the 3rd last doctrine in the Grand Battleplan tree, so he is not that far behind.

. So Germany would've finished mid 1940, but other countries it might be closer to 1942-1943.

'40 for Germany is still too early, even '43 is still too early. I think maxing out the doctrine tree should not be possible before '44 or even '45.

 

[Klausewitz]

Only Germany pretty much had maxed out there doctrine by 1940 in real life.
Poland as a last test of applicability and then france as final proof of concept.

 

[Hans_Schnitzel]

The issue is that there is last two paths are "Desperate Defence" and "Modern Blitzkrieg" ... so, how are you going to be in a "desperate defence" state in 1940? This doctrine is supposed to give Germany the historical option of putting everything into clinging to the area they took via Blitzkrieg, but why would you ever pick this around 1940? I doubt you can switch arms within a doctrine.

 

[Septawn]

Only Germany pretty much had maxed out there doctrine by 1940 in real life.
Poland as a last test of applicability and then france as final proof of concept.

That's not really true. The Invasion of Poland was pretty traditional with the armored units only acting decisively in a few instances. It gave some credence to a concept that was, for the most part, considered impractical by most of the German High Command. With France, the initial invasion plan was just a redo of the Schlieffen Plan. It was only after the plan had been captured by the Allies that Manstein was given the greenlight to draft the new (and better) one. During the Campaign, Guderian still had to beg and fight High Command to actually use the panzers in the way he envisioned.

The REAL strength in German Doctrine was the emphasis on combined arms and tactical/operational flexibility.

 

[Zaku]

Only Germany pretty much had maxed out there doctrine by 1940 in real life.
Poland as a last test of applicability and then france as final proof of concept.

Blitzkrieg is the german nickname of early mobile combined arms doctrine. It wasn't maxed out in 1940 IRL. (I don't think "maxing out" is even possible considering it's still being improved today.)

 

[Denkt]

Given that they used between 20% to 25% of their research capacity for more then 4 years and still they have not finished their land doctrine research, it is expensive.

The price they have paid to get so far in their land doctrines are great. They have barely touched support companies, artillery technology are behind, aircrafts could have been better, they just finished their 1936 tech battleships (in late 1939), air and naval doctrines are not in top shape. Infantry, tanks, industry and engineering are the only tech groups that are of a good level besides land doctrines and Im not sure about tanks.

It look more like a balance problem then anything else as they forget about so many other technologies to be able to research doctrines constantly.

 

[Snappie88]

Perhaps this has been discussed already or is being addressed in the Beta, but after watching www3 I have a concern regarding doctrine research. Germany was researching the final piece of Mobile Warfare...in 1940.

Check out the first two (and fourth) WWW's. They are by far better, and also anwer your question. It's a no-brainer, and Paradox wants every decision to count, so they are thinking about a solution for this issue. It will probably be different in the final version.

 

[agus92]

IRL most doctrines were created in the interwar period.

Created, not implemented.

 

[agus92]

Only Germany pretty much had maxed out there doctrine by 1940 in real life.
Poland as a last test of applicability and then france as final proof of concept.

Exactly, but to in order to be validated, implemented, and improved, they had Spain, Poland and France. Which in game terms translates to XP-requirements. Also, that would be a good incentive for interventionism in foreign wars.

Edit: and let's not forget about air doctrines as well: the Germans imoroved it's aerial performance notably thanks to SCW experience.

 

[Zwirbaum]

I was thinking about this as well and created "idea/concept" how to do it.

Maybe split each resarch on theoretical and practical application/doctrine resarch. For theoretical you spend standard time resarching it and it unlocks, different tactics or whatever boni, and after resarching theoretical you can spend experience (same as tank variants etc.) to resarch practical application which gives rest of the bonuses which now would consist of what resarch would give.

Opinions?