Doable improvement: AI management of forts

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Laurent1944

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Hello,

I have noticed in my last game something rather strange. Most of the forts in India and SE Asia were always up to date, while the European big powers, GB, Spain, the Ottos, Portugal, Russia and so on, never update a fort in the whole game. The end result is that it was faster for me in late 17th to defeat GB + Otto alliance than to invade Dai Viet that had no ally.

It seems to me that upgrading fort is very low in AI priority. Basically the AI tags that update forts are the one that don't seem to have much else to do with their money, like HRE OPMs. And this is really a weakness for AI blobs in late game.

I also notice that most of the big powers that did not upgrade their forts were using Charter Companies to buy TC province. I have seen only one screen capture of an AI doing it from a player and it spent 4k ducats for a 1/1/1 province. Another AI priority is also to cover the map with manufactories.

AI will be better (and game harder, or at least conquest slower) if the AI:
1) always upgrade its capital to highest possible fort level (this is especially true when an AI lost its capital and end in an unfortified province. By the way relocating the capital after losing it should take in account the fort level too).
2) upgrade forts in a regular basis. Let's define sequences, depending of country and ideas, like that:
_ defensive: improve/build fort - build manufactory - improve/build fort - and so on
_ productive: build manufactory - build manufactory - build manufactory - improve/build fort - and so on
_ colonial: charter company - improve/build fort - build manufactory - build manufactory - improve/build fort - build manufactory - build manufactory - and so on
3) never delete a fort in mountains or desert or salt province. In my last game, Spanish AI deleted the fort in Pirineos while I (their rival and 1st GP) was holding France. On the other hand, my Mexican CN was in a debt spiral, had no enemy at its borders but still never deleted any of the 7-8 forts taken from the natives during the conquest of Mexico. By the way the CN could never afford an army until I paid its huge debt.
 
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Forts are generally a waste of money relative to armies, so let's not weaken the AI further by making it spend even more on forts.
Having said that, the in-game behaviour seems to be that whenever a fort gets sieged down, the AI marks it as needing an upgrade; this means that small nations in war-torn regions sink all their money into forts, while large rich nations almost never upgrade them at all, save some border forts maybe.
 
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Laurent1944

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Forts are generally a waste of money relative to armies, so let's not weaken the AI further by making it spend even more on forts.

Forts are a waste of money for a player, but certainly not for the AI, that will have far less trouble managing them. Most of the time, the AI armies wander aimlessly or flee to the other side of the world. In most of my wars, I am able to invade 100% of the enemy land without any land battle. Forts can't flee. They will also help the AI to manage rebels.

By the way I have not proposed to cut AI armies down but to redirect some of the money spent in charter companies and manufactories.

Having said that, the in-game behaviour seems to be that whenever a fort gets sieged down, the AI marks it as needing an upgrade; this means that small nations in war-torn regions sink all their money into forts, while large rich nations almost never upgrade them at all, save some border forts maybe.
Interesting I have never linked the size of the fort to the number of time they were taken. My last game did not follow this line: forts on the Spanish-French borders or in Caucasus had been sieged down more than a dozen times and were still lvl 2, while Bengal had in the second half of the 17th all forts lvl 6 (except the capital, only lvl 3) and at least two had never been sieged down in three centuries.
 
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Forts are definitively not a waste of money, they give you up to +1 yearly army tradition, which is even more valuable for the ai because they won't be at war as often as the player (+1 yat with a decay rate of 5% means tradition will trend to 20, giving you +5% army morale and +2% manpower recovery speed). There's also the advantage of giving you defensive terrain bonuses which saves you manpower, which is much more valuable than money, plus it also helps keeping prosperity high in your provinces by reducing devastation.
 
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Dargaron

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Interesting I have never linked the size of the fort to the number of time they were taken. My last game did not follow this line: forts on the Spanish-French borders or in Caucasus had been sieged down more than a dozen times and were still lvl 2, while Bengal had in the second half of the 17th all forts lvl 6 (except the capital, only lvl 3) and at least two had never been sieged down in three centuries.

I experienced this during a Zoroastrian Persian campaign: during the late-game, I had wars with both Vijayanagara in India and Ming in China (who had blobbed relatively unchallenged). During my first war with VIJ, all their forts were level 2 and were easily seiged down. During the second war, all of the forts that I had seiged previously got an upgrade to level 6, while their fort in South India (which I hadn't got to) was still level 2. A similar thing happend when waging war against Ming (like an idiot, I decided to go for a Humiliation): at first, their forts were all level 2 (presumably, they'd never been taken before because come on, it's Ming!), while after the first war, all the forts in North China were upgraded to levels 6-8, while the forts in South China were still unupgraded.
 
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As far as i know subjects can't delete forts - heard that on forums.

Anyways according to @atwix - again as far as i know - AI don't upgrade forts due to AI military budgeting. AI is scripted to pay for military according to its force limits (that's a priority i guess) and then it does not have spare money for upgrading forts. This is especially case for nations with big force limits - namely ottomans.

Smaller rich nations will upgrade forts sooner. Very hard AI upgrades forts sooner. VH AI also get +50% FL which makes things harder for AI upgrade-wise since they need to support higher FL.

Anyway, AI budgeting is something being looked at in last DD so hopefully things get improved a bit.
 
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mechanical_Critter

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Having said that, the in-game behaviour seems to be that whenever a fort gets sieged down, the AI marks it as needing an upgrade; this means that small nations in war-torn regions sink all their money into forts, while large rich nations almost never upgrade them at all, save some border forts maybe.

It's not exactly like that. AI feeling threatened will make it upgrade its forts. it's unrelated to the effective use thereof. The thing is, as OP says, while it works well for smaller nations, larger nations (typically, Ottomans, sometimes France, Spain, Ming) will have difficulties recognising that they're threatened. It's probably because it's more difficult for an AI to assess the threat level to other AI, who will lay claims and mark lands, than the player who does his thing.

Maybe adding an exception for nation whose income surpass largely the fort expenses would be an idea, if it is deemed appropriate that smaller nations pay as much for their forts.
 
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Forts are definitively not a waste of money, they give you up to +1 yearly army tradition, which is even more valuable for the ai because they won't be at war as often as the player (+1 yat with a decay rate of 5% means tradition will trend to 20, giving you +5% army morale and +2% manpower recovery speed). There's also the advantage of giving you defensive terrain bonuses which saves you manpower, which is much more valuable than money, plus it also helps keeping prosperity high in your provinces by reducing devastation.

Very well said. The defensive terrain bonus is the best feature of forts as a player, I think, and is a good example of a gameplay mechanic that uses the strategic map appropriately. Two more points: forts well placed exacerbate enemy attrition and they can be used to create zone of control bottlenecks.
 
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Not 100% sure but I do not think Subjects can ever delete Forts

There may be some variation based on subject type, but I know vassals can delete forts. Too many times I declared war thinking I had a nice mountain fort protecting my flank only to see enemies deep in my territory and see it had been deleted.

As I understand the AI will not delete a fort in a capital and a subject will not delete a fort built by the player. However random forts they gain from lands recieved can be deleted.
 

Ruian

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Not 100% sure but I do not think Subjects can ever delete Forts
Subjects can delete forts. There was some experimentation with liberty desire reductions that ended up causing a balance change to limit liberty desire reductions to 100%. The most extreme way to do it was build, say, 15 forts in Korea as Ming after full annexing them then paying off their loans. The problem was that Korea would delete the forts. The workaround was to always keep them at war.

Then it was nerfed
 
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I'll cautiously allow myself to bump this thread, as obviously it still poses a major issue and has not been addressed. Is there any kind of justification for why in 1680 or such no minor nor major European nation has any fort above the initial level 2/ level 3 forts?
Not necessarily complaining as it makes the gameplay flow much better, hence it might actually be an intentional feature?
 
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Orioniys

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I'll cautiously allow myself to bump this thread, as obviously it still poses a major issue and has not been addressed. Is there any kind of justification for why in 1680 or such no minor nor major European nation has any fort above the initial level 2/ level 3 forts?
Not necessarily complaining as it makes the gameplay flow much better, hence it might actually be an intentional feature?
Like it was mentioned earlier it's AI's budgeting problem. 1.30 changed some of the AI budgeting code, it also the main reason behind AI's dept spiral. In fact to my knowledge there is no reliable way to force AI to upgrade forts by regular means in 1.30, apart from writing separate event / scripts.
Same goes for edicts, it's very hard to force AI to use edicts rtn.
 
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Kimbole

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Forts are generally a waste of money relative to armies, so let's not weaken the AI further by making it spend even more on forts.

Upgrading at least capital forts is important for the AI for at least one reason. A level two fort toward the end of the game means that it is trivial for a player to avoid all combat, waltz in and take over the capital of any allied nations before enemy forces have laced up their boots. Quickly peace them out and hey presto, you’re now facing a much easier fight. Net result is that alliances for the AI become much less useful over time because you can surgically take enemies out of the picture.

I don’t love sieges and I think level eight forts across the map might not be great fun... But I would imagine that keep capital fort updated would be a fairly simple fix? Would happily see a discount to fort maintenance in capital provinces if needed.
 
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redshirt4life

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Agreed the AI becomes a total pushover because they don't upgrade forts. My armies can just roll over all their obsolete forts and attain a massive war score before they can even react. The war is over before armies even meet.

It's made worse by the AI's tendency to invade my land and "trade" forts. My army will paint their entire country and still get back in time to unseige my fort.
 
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