Do you want more EU3?

[unmerged(514)]

You can keep ignoring my points and claim that I'm extrapolating (without even bothering to give arguments supporting your statement) if you wish, but it doesn't negate my argument.

Sorry, I edited my post while you were replying to it...

 

[Earl Uhtred]

So you're saying that modder's opinion what should be in the game is better than mine or other fans'. It's nice to know that there's "Upstairs, Downstairs" attitude in this forum. I was too stupid and ignorant to think that we were equal around here.

Not sure where you got that from. I have done only the most brain-dead sort of modding and have no connection to the MM team or any other.

It isn't a question of giving undue weight to the wishes of some mythical elite caste of modders at the expense of the rest of the community, but just of taking modders' wishes into account. A ludicrously disproportionate reaction to imaginary class injustice seems a bit...

 

[Uglyr]

I could not agree more. Those posts annoy me to no end.

And the posts that annoy me, are the posts that ask to add gameplay mechanics, that can be (and was) made at present version using mods. Why should Paradox spend it's time to reinvent the wheel?

The truth is in the middle, as usual (right between two holywar armies) and Paradox knows it and follow that path giving both sides what they want. And if there is something they had no time to finish - there is always room for another expansion...

 

[blue sam3]

Ad Infinitum and SRI and MMP2 all have the big seven concept. Go DL the AI mod at the least. It'll make your day.

T

I already have AI, SRI and MMP and I am waiting eagerly for MMP2 to come out, I just wasn't sure if this was already in it. It could also be done better by Paradox with source code access, such as by adding a league system into the hardcoded areas of the game.

 

[Zeitgeist]

Of course it is... but I don't believe it to be as biased as one might think. I am still seeing new guys come in long after the releases, especially after complete. There are people coming out of the woodwork on this poll, who haven't posted since Noah. If you were talking about my mods, then yes I'd agree. Extremely small sample there...

That's fair enough, and only Paradox knows for sure, but it's a common trend in almost every game that only a small fraction of the game's purchasers ever show up on the forum. I'd be shocked if the number was more than 10 or 20%

I disagree here. The name of the game is 'expand the customer base'. The only way you can do that as a small company making 'niche' games is to allow for your game to be tailored, or modded to create additional markets. No mods would mean the loss of those who want no PTI, the loss of those who want a more 'rigid' history, the loss of those who want a more detailed HRE, or more detailed religious implications. More importantly, it means the loss of those ten customers who really do want pirates, just not the instantly appearing ones...

Mods allow the game to reach and pique interests in places where Paradox can't afford to go. Modding can increase the demand for a game beyond it's normal audience and can target specific groups and encourage them to stay here instead of going off and playing some other companies game. The really nice thing? As long as the game and the mods are done well, their numbers will only grow.

I don't necessarily disagree with this, but how much is Johan's time worth? That's quantifiable. How much benefit would a few extra modding features derive? That's up in the air.

This was done in a few games, IIRC. In fact, my first modding experience was when I purchased a copy of CIV 2 that had ten or so mods included on the disc. As a result, I bought every release of CIV right up through the last one. All since CIV 2 have been disappointments. The #1 reason? The ease of modding the games was gone. With so many glaring deficiencies in the games, and the inability to mod them out satisfactorily I could not fully enjoy them. As a result of these experiences, the games became dust gatherers and I will not be buying any CIV title in the near future that hasn't been out for at least a year or two. Galactic Civ 2 has suffered the same fate. Moddable, but not intuitively so. Again, that game is in the 'recycle bin'.

To be fair, Civ4 has to be the most moddable game out there that I'm aware of. But perhaps it's just not easy to get into. I've certainly never tried, but what I've seen accomplished in the VISA was frankly, amazing.

In contrast, my experience with EUIII has been very positive. I have been able to create and or DL mods to make the game what I want it to be. I'm no rocket scientist, nor am I any sort of coder or programmer, not by any stretch of the imagination. If anything, I'm the epitome of the lowest common denominator. If I can mod this game, anyone else can mod this game, computer literate or not, code savvy or not. You're not going to make the next 'Magan Mundi', at least not without help... But you CAN make meaningful changes in the game that will put a very big smile on your face as you play.

EUIII as it stands isn't the easiest game to mod, but I muddle through. It all makes some sort of sense, and it offers enough content to use so you can actually effect real changes to tailor the game to your liking. Being able to customize a game to fit your own whims is extremely satisfying, adds much to the re-playability issue and has brought me to the place where I would buy an expansion no questions asked. Adding to that capability WILL effect my decision to buy Paradox products in the future.

That is called financial impact.

Were you likely not to buy Paradox's products? Be honest. The fact is that modders, and to a lesser extent, people who play mods are already highly likely to buy a mod. Perhaps this excludes you.

As an aside... I originally was going to use the 10% rule on Ubik's numbers, figuring 45K as the actual # of people DLing the mod. If they all bought an expansion @19.95... that's 897,750 ducats. You know MMP2 would take advantage of any new material and update to the latest expansion. It only follows that many of their loyal followers would buy it to continue playing the latest version. I actually thought that to be quite high, so I went with a severely conservative 1%, 4,500... Which still produced a number that pays for an employee or two.

As a repair technician, we called that 'money in the bank'...

I understand underestimating the following of a game and it's community can be just as dangerous as over estimating it, so I always low ball numbers. I don't believe I have either over estimated or severely under estimated the impact of modders and those who play them in this case, and the reality is that mods and those who play them are a sizable group of people... A group that is far more inclined than the average person to but another expansion.

The group was already most likely more inclined to buy the expansion though. Perhaps Magan Mundi pushed them further towards buying the next one, but that's hard to measure.

So let me pull some random numbers of my own up. Let's say there's 50k people who download MM from ubik's estimates. With no offense to him, this seems high to me, but MM is a very successful mod, if not the most successful. But let's give him the benefit of the doubt. Let's further say that they were already 75% likely to buy the next expansion even before they tried MM. Then, we'd be talking about 37500. Now let's say MM makes them 80% on average likely to buy the next expansion. You're talking about pushing 2500 more copies. That's a lot of copies, sure, but already that provides a hard cap. 2500 * $20 = $50000. If Johan is $100 an hour, it's not worth it to invest more than 500 hours into the project. Well that doesn't sound half bad does it?

Not exactly, but there's also opportunity cost. 500 hours of Johan beer-induced slave labor could be invested towards a new title, which would sell more copies than this. That's 24 full days of programming. He could create a new expansion in this time; one that would sell far more than 2500 copies.

So while I agree with you that financial impact is important, I feel like it's still less than working on a new game. And yes, I realize that I made up all these numbers so none of them should be believed. Nonetheless, Paradox must agree with me too, or we'd have more support for modding; I doubt it would be hard for Johan to throw us a few triggers, etc here and there if he had a spare hour and wanted to. Of course their analysis is the one that counts

Apologies for the length... This started as a three sentence reply an hour and a half ago... How time flies when you're typing about fun.

No problem, I always do that :rofl: And I do find it interesting, even if the two of us don't exactly see eye to eye.

So what you're saying in a lenghty way that EU3 sucks without mods and that Paradox can't make good game but the modders can. Allow me to disagree, Paradox made EUIII so good (especially when they published IN) that I haven't had any need to try any of the mods, because official release offers so much entertainment and I don't want that some mod ruins it.

(Sorry, if I seem bit belligerent, but attitude that mods are better than original game annoys me, especially when people downplay my favourite games and have the attitude that unmodded games are trash.)

I think the main point here, regardless of whether you like modding, play mods, or your opinion of EU3: IN, is that every game has an innate shelf life. You're only going to play it so long before you get bored with it, for whatever reason. Maybe that threshold, hasn't been reached for you, and that's wonderful, but others have reached it and perhaps they stick around playing EU3 because of mods and the ability to mod rather than moving on to the next shiny game.

Another indisputable fact is that Paradox improvements and patches are limited by economics whereas modders do this in their spare time. If you don't believe me look at the date this patch was released. Next look at the number of mods with updates within the last 30 days. This naturally allows modders to explore the limits of the game engine.

And don't be surprised if there's interplay here; I've been hanging around here long enough to remember that military tradition came out of EU2 Multiplayer 'mods' which addressed the lack of non-historical generals with various leader generators between sessions. Paradox does in fact occasionally learn from modders and players of the game, and they should.

 

[e-stab]

And the posts that annoy me, are the posts that ask to add gameplay mechanics, that can be (and was) made at present version using mods. Why should Paradox spend it's time to reinvent the wheel?

It's not about reinventing the wheel at all. Mods cannot add gameplay mechanics, they can just use the existing ones and maybe simulate new ones with it. But they can't really add things like lines of heritage or additional event commands.

 

[Alfred Packer]

And the posts that annoy me, are the posts that ask to add gameplay mechanics, that can be (and was) made at present version using mods. Why should Paradox spend it's time to reinvent the wheel?

I gotta be honest with you, I don't really care for most of the gameplay mechanics (ie: club you to death with negative events if you don't play 'a certain way') that most of the mods introduce. That's why I rarely play them.

I am, however, happy with the gameplay enhancements that NA and IN added and I do not consider these two to be in the same class at all.

 

[unmerged(514)]

So let me pull some random numbers of my own up. Let's say there's 50k people who download MM from ubik's estimates. With no offense to him, this seems high to me, but MM is a very successful mod, if not the most successful. But let's give him the benefit of the doubt.

I don't think it's that highly overated.

For instance, MMG1 had more than 26000 downloads before a new version was released, if we subtract the residual number of people with error codes downloading (quantifiable, don't have the numbers anymore) and people who downloaded more than once (not quantifiable), when back then I look at those numbers, I was convinced there were around 25000 downloading the first version of the mod. Of course, this was just in a few days after release as a new version was available soon, but one can easily extrapolate some more 50% of people would download it eventually, putting the number at 37500. If I say in all its other iterations 33% of this total downloaded it, I don't think I am overrating the number of people.


Of course, pulling most of the numbers from my a*sse, but they don't seem too optimistic.

 

[unmerged(514)]

It's not about reinventing the wheel at all. Mods cannot add gameplay mechanics, they can just use the existing ones and maybe simulate new ones with it. But they can't really add things like lines of heritage or additional event commands.

Yes they can o0o !

For MMP2 we have many, many new gameplay mechanics! For instance, we have replaced the entire piracy game mechanic from the game and include one from our own design.

We have included Religious Fervor, a new gauge that lets one define how religion impacts its country.

We have created Administration Efficicency, that through the juggling of several variables provides a measure for how far a player can grow in territories.

All this are new gameplay concepts introduced. I could give probably a hundred more examples.

 

[e-stab]

It depends on how you define gameplay mechanics. I was thinking more along the line of game mechanics instead of what others might call gameplay mechanics. But that's not a discussion I want to do here. (Wikipedia has a suitable article about it.)

 

[unmerged(62478)]

Yes they can o0o !

For MMP2 we have many, many new gameplay mechanics! For instance, we have replaced the entire piracy game mechanic from the game and include one from our own design.

We have included Religious Fervor, a new gauge that lets one define how religion impacts its country.

We have created Administration Efficicency, that through the juggling of several variables provides a measure for how far a player can grow in territories.

All this are new gameplay concepts introduced. I could give probably a hundred more examples.

Not to forget that you deleted the cultural assimilation events.

 

[Haftetavenscrap]

Please save the mod advertisements for other threads. This is an officially created thread about the possibility of a new expansion.

 

[Olaus Petrus]

Sorry, I edited my post while you were replying to it...

Fair enough, but like you said mods have small following and represent only tastes of a small group of gamers.

Not sure where you got that from. I have done only the most brain-dead sort of modding and have no connection to the MM team or any other.

It isn't a question of giving undue weight to the wishes of some mythical elite caste of modders at the expense of the rest of the community, but just of taking modders' wishes into account. A ludicrously disproportionate reaction to imaginary class injustice seems a bit...

I think that modders have equal right to be heard as any other active forumites have. If they have good ideas then they should propose those ideas to Paradox.

But earlier the issue was presented in the way that Paradox should take chief modders to their advisors. Personally I trust that Johan et co. have a strong vision how they want to develope the game and it may not be same vision which the modders have.

Like I mentioned earlier and like Alfred said there are plenty of people who like the game the way Paradox created it and don't necessarily want stuff from the mods to the official game. Paradox has to balance between all fan groups and giving large role to modders in expansion design wouldn't please all customers.

I think the main point here, regardless of whether you like modding, play mods, or your opinion of EU3: IN, is that every game has an innate shelf life. You're only going to play it so long before you get bored with it, for whatever reason. Maybe that threshold, hasn't been reached for you, and that's wonderful, but others have reached it and perhaps they stick around playing EU3 because of mods and the ability to mod rather than moving on to the next shiny game.

Another indisputable fact is that Paradox improvements and patches are limited by economics whereas modders do this in their spare time. If you don't believe me look at the date this patch was released. Next look at the number of mods with updates within the last 30 days. This naturally allows modders to explore the limits of the game engine.

And don't be surprised if there's interplay here; I've been hanging around here long enough to remember that military tradition came out of EU2 Multiplayer 'mods' which addressed the lack of non-historical generals with various leader generators between sessions. Paradox does in fact occasionally learn from modders and players of the game, and they should.

I played EUI till EU2 came out and EU2 till EU3 was published (I still play EU2 occasionally in MP). Vanilla game has always been enough for me, because I usually play campaigns of other Paradox titles between my EU grand campaigns.

 

[DarthJF]

And the posts that annoy me, are the posts that ask to add gameplay mechanics, that can be (and was) made at present version using mods. Why should Paradox spend it's time to reinvent the wheel?

So if some mechanic they are thinking of adding in the expansion is already in a mod they should just leave it out because some mod has it already? What's wrong in adding working features to the vanilla game, so you don't have to go looking for mods? I agree that some mods have some pretty neat stuff, but they also almost always make changes I don't want to my game, so I much rather see Paradox add all the stuff they feel is necessary to improve the game, instead of leave part of the possible improvements for modders.

Ultimately I want that Paradox makes their games so good that I don't have to have mods to enjoy the game.

 

[unmerged(514)]

So if some mechanic they are thinking of adding in the expansion is already in a mod they should just leave it out because some mod has it already?

I hope not and that is not the behaviour Paradox has displayed so far. They should take whatever good ideas mods introduced and can even look at it from two prespectives: Their own taste of gameplay and the popularity of said ideas.

What's wrong in adding working features to the vanilla game, so you don't have to go looking for mods? I agree that some mods have some pretty neat stuff, but they also almost always make changes I don't want to my game, so I much rather see Paradox add all the stuff they feel is necessary to improve the game, instead of leave part of the possible improvements for modders.

Sure, but what guarantees you that all the stuff included in following vanilla version will suit your tastes? Then you'll be looking for mods that remove this or that feature or that change it entirely.

In fact, the beauty of it all is that there ill be no definite "better" version and no two people can agree about a single definite better version.

Ultimately I want that Paradox makes their games so good that I don't have to have mods to enjoy the game.

Paradox always does that. Which doesn't mean this or that mod will not make the game better FOR YOU.

 

[Sgt. Optimus]

When will we know something new about the new expansion?

 

[Peter Ebbesen]

When will we know something new about the new expansion?

IF there's an EU3 expansion, then probably about one day after people become tired of asking.

 

[unmerged(69928)]

Damn... I gotta stop going to work.

It appears I've hit and missed and caused a bit of a ruckus here...

So what you're saying in a lenghty way that EU3 sucks without mods and that Paradox can't make good game but the modders can...

Um, in a word? No. I said nothing of the sort. You have drawn an imaginary line here that places me in a position and you in a position, except I'm over here. What I said was exactly what I said, that Paradox simply can't afford to cater to everyone.

EUIII is an excellent game, however, simple economics (as expertly explained by Zeitgeist, BTW) make catering to every whim of every customer a completely unrealistic and unreachable goal.

So, as a company, you make the best game you can for the money and sell as many copies as you can and smile all the way to the bank if you wrote anything that was worth a crap. (Or, if you have a franchise, you butcher it and sell it anyways... At least you get to laugh to the bank till word gets out...)

But the real question, if you're the company is this: Do you stop there?

Are you content to leave money on the table?

Are you content to leave customers unsold?

Hell no.

It's a business.

The whole point is make the most money you can.

So that leaves you with a business problem...

How do we, the company, expand our customer base?

How do we, the company, appeal to a broader audience?

How do we, the company make a finite game concept appeal to an infinite number of customers?

How do we, the company, take a fixed code and make it more than the sum of it's parts?

By building into the game the ability to tailor it to different consumer groups.

We call it 'modding'.

Paradox calls it 'MONEY'.

The product itself doesn't change, except by patches and expansions. But, if we open up parts of the game for people to change, they will change our product for us to appeal to different groups of people that may otherwise not play vanilla EUIII. To write in code for the modders to use as you're writing the code for the game is a very efficient use of time. After release, the modders go to work, creating mods for all those niches we, as a company, cannot do with a high degree of profitability. In the end, it basically amounts to free increased market potential. It's having fans program and code for you, 99.9% for free simply because they love too. Word spreads, people talk, more people buy the game, and IF the game is as good as this one, the game's shelf life becomes extended... and maybe, if it's a really good game, it gets a fourth expansion, even though it's been deemed complete. I'm not saying mods made that happen, but they are a part of it for sure. Consider the fact that the Magna Mundi mod made it as an actual game site story line. Do you think it may have influenced another person to try or buy the game? I'd wager it did. As more and more people try the games, and try the mods, the numbers will grow.

All of this has nothing to do with those of you who like plain vanilla EUIII. You have nothing to be angry about. Paradox didn't win your support because it made expansions for modders, did it? What in God's green Earth would make you think they'd start now? You already bought the game, and you'll buy the expansion because Paradox has proven they're not stupid. They have demonstrated a capability and a commitment to their fans that is not seen too much anymore. I'd buy an expansion for that reason, and honestly, I bought the Nappy expansion based on this alone. It wasn't until IN that EUIII was even playable for me. After awhile I wanted to change a few things. Little things... I found I could. I tried MM and TN and WWM, and none of them were what I wanted, because (GASP!), I liked the vanilla game... except for the few things I modded.

Allow me to disagree, Paradox made EUIII so good (especially when they published IN) that I haven't had any need to try any of the mods, because official release offers so much entertainment and I don't want that some mod ruins it.

(Sorry, if I seem bit belligerent, but attitude that mods are better than original game annoys me, especially when people downplay my favourite games and have the attitude that unmodded games are trash.)

This is an invitation to belligerence. You should at least try the mods before claiming they ruin anything. I'm ecstatic that you can play vanilla and enjoy it, really I am. But to out of hand dismiss someone else's enjoyment because it's not yours is simply _________. I'll let you use your own profanity laden adjectives to describe how _________ it is saying something ruins the game when you haven't given them the time of day.

Mods are like clothes. I don't wear dresses. Just because you might like to doesn't mean I have to wear one too. I prefer a nice comfy set of jeans and a nice soft T-shirt. Do hate me because I dress differently? I would hope not. To hate me because I like my EUIII with a little salt and pepper is the same thing.

I don't claim modded is better than un-modded. That wasn't the point, never will be either. The point was that everyone has different ideas as to what the perfect game is... It just so happens that modding is the not only one of the easiest and efficient ways to making the game appeal to all those different people, it also happens to be a very economically viable way for Paradox to allow of this to be addressed without making the game so expensive you couldn't afford to play vanilla if you wanted to...

Thanks Ubik and G'Kar and Earl Uhtred for their fearless defenses... I am honored by your deeds...!

T

 

[Beamed]

This conversation is a little meaningless. The game was designed in such a way that you can enjoy it anyway you'd like. Arguing over whether or not mods are a good thing seems rather trite and redundant.

 

[OrangeYoshi]

So, as a company, you make the best game you can for the money and sell as many copies as you can and smile all the way to the bank if you wrote anything that was worth a crap.

Paradox because of the quality of their games and listening to their fans...

(Or, if you have a franchise, you butcher it and sell it anyways... At least you get to laugh to the bank till word gets out...)

Creative Assembly.