Do you think mana is on the way out

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XxNovaStarxX

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Pdx most recent games, hoi4, stellaris, and IR, all lack mana, monarch points. Is this a sign that the feature will no longer be implemented in newer games?
 

DystopianAlphaOmega

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I mean, the only main games that have ever really had it are EU IV and Imperator aren't they? CK and HOI have never had "mana" in the same way, although if you count political and command power, there's an argument to be made I guess. Imperator team decided they didn't like it, but I'd wait for the real test as to if they carry it over for EU V.
 

Denkt

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If you consider mana as an resource that you can't do much to improve its production, a resource which don't snowball, most of the current grand strategy games still have it:
  • Monarch points in EUIV
  • Political Influence in Imperator: Rome
  • Political Power, experience and command points in HOI4
  • Influence in stellaris
CK2/CK3 seems to be the only games without such resource.
 

pheonicia

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If you consider mana as an resource that you can't do much to improve its production, a resource which don't snowball, most of the current grand strategy games still have it:
  • Monarch points in EUIV
  • Political Influence in Imperator: Rome
  • Political Power, experience and command points in HOI4
  • Influence in stellaris
CK2/CK3 seems to be the only games without such resource.
Hoi4 experience shouldn't count by that definition since you do control production and can choose to spend fuel/equipment on gaining more through training.
 

valentin4

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If you consider mana as an resource that you can't do much to improve its production, a resource which don't snowball, most of the current grand strategy games still have it:
  • Monarch points in EUIV
  • Political Influence in Imperator: Rome
  • Political Power, experience and command points in HOI4
  • Influence in stellaris
CK2/CK3 seems to be the only games without such resource.

I think mana can also be defined as abstract resources that you can't really picture the use... In ck3 you have to spend "fame" to declare war
 

elektrizikekswerk

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I think mana can also be defined as abstract resources that you can't really picture the use... In ck3 you have to spend "fame" to declare war
In that case prestige and piety of CK2 do count as well. And I personally wouldn't count these.
I think the observation of @Denkt is spot on except for the part @pheonicia already mentioned.
 

Denkt

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Hoi4 experience shouldn't count by that definition since you do control production and can choose to spend fuel/equipment on gaining more through training.
I added it in because how much you can gain each day is capped which is similar to the other resources I mentioned.

I think mana can also be defined as abstract resources that you can't really picture the use... In ck3 you have to spend "fame" to declare war
Yes that seems also to be true.
 

pheonicia

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Personally I don't think "mana" is going anywhere since it's just an a game mechanic, not inherently good or bad. Really there are only two things to worry about with it. First is the balance of the resource: income vs expenditure vs storage. Second is the willingness of the player to suspend their disbelief regarding the resource as an abstraction. For example, if you were to rename the aoe2 resources from wood, food, gold, stone to horse hooves, horse tails, horse livers, and lamb chops then the balance wouldn't change but the game would certainly be worse off for it since wouldn't make sense and be way less intuitive to both acquire and spend.
 

LiberiusX

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I don't mind mana, as long as it is one mechanic among many. The problem with mana in EU4 is that, originally, so many other mechanics were beholden to it, with few substitutes. This contributed to EU4's biggest problem(IMHO), i.e. very little for the player to do between warring.

Same with Imperator...out of which mana was basically thrown out in the first major update.
 

STABBY5

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Pdx most recent games, hoi4, stellaris, and IR, all lack mana, monarch points. Is this a sign that the feature will no longer be implemented in newer games?
No. The more we yell that we don't like vague abstract meaningless "currencies", the more they try to put them in. Like CK2 they slowly changed from piety and prestige being a measure that is checked to a currency spent on things, which is how CK3 is. Imperator was designed and was only changed after them going through the 5 stages of grief. It's just an easy way to balance things without actually balancing choices.
 
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StenKilla

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Dosent HOI4 have mana in the form of political points? Spend x amount of points on a focus and get free factories instantly
 

Denkt

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Dosent HOI4 have mana in the form of political points? Spend x amount of points on a focus and get free factories instantly
That is more like national focuses in HOI4 (which do cost political Power).
 

LiberiusX

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Dosent HOI4 have mana in the form of political points? Spend x amount of points on a focus and get free factories instantly

Ehh yes but a lot of variables impact the flow of PP from the start. It’s not like when EU4 first came out and there was only one source of mana, your ruler’s very random stats.
 

Vic3RebelUprising

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Let me put you an example of how it should work:

- EU4 mana stability (current one): from -3 to +3, you can instantly increase it by spending admin points and you can earn more admin points by clicking other buttons

- EU4 non-mana stability (how it should work): from -100 to +100, it increases or decreases automatically by X each month, X is calculated from a lot of factors, for example... recently lost a war decreases, being at peace for a long time increases, having rebels decreases... something like that. And you CAN'T instantly increase it or decrease it by directly pressing a button, you'll have to do something and wait time for their effect... you know like gaining literacy in Vic2, you don't increase it by directly clicking a button... you need to research tech, to increase clergy/intelectualls, etc and this takes a lot of time.

Paradox shoud make STRATEGY games (complex thinking and planning) and not CLICKING games (click click click my brain is disconnected).
 
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Jernau_

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Paradox shoud make STRATEGY games (complex thinking and planning) and not CLICKING games (click click click my brain is disconnected).

You wait to get admin points and then click stability, or click + stability and wait for the effect. Pretty much the same.
 

klickor

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You wait to get admin points and then click stability, or click + stability and wait for the effect. Pretty much the same.

With instant effects you can do stupid stuff like declare no CB war and get to - 3 stab and next day you are up at +3 again. Or get an event that gives +1-2 stab while at 0-1 stab and spend mana to get +1 stab before you get hit by +50% modifier and then take the event to get to +3 stab. Same with war exhaustion, inflation, corruption and the whole absolutism mechanic is as made for using instant mana to get broken results.

In earlier EU titles getting to - 3 stab could actually hurt since it would probably take a few years to get to even 0 stab again and not 3 clicks. Entire mechanic are easily just ignored by instant mana spending. Last 3 WC I did combined I spent probably less than a month total below 0 stab or above 4 WE or above 3 inflation.
 

LiberiusX

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With instant effects you can do stupid stuff like declare no CB war and get to - 3 stab and next day you are up at +3 again. Or get an event that gives +1-2 stab while at 0-1 stab and spend mana to get +1 stab before you get hit by +50% modifier and then take the event to get to +3 stab. Same with war exhaustion, inflation, corruption and the whole absolutism mechanic is as made for using instant mana to get broken results.

In earlier EU titles getting to - 3 stab could actually hurt since it would probably take a few years to get to even 0 stab again and not 3 clicks. Entire mechanic are easily just ignored by instant mana spending. Last 3 WC I did combined I spent probably less than a month total below 0 stab or above 4 WE or above 3 inflation.

Yeh...I never thought I would look fondly back on waiting 50 years for a core...but, while a bit arbitrary, it did feel more organic.

I actually detest the "spend mana to gain a core" mechanic. Same with "spend mana" to get your culture. Once again...just feels too...clicky...and less interesting.
 

mrt1212

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In that case prestige and piety of CK2 do count as well. And I personally wouldn't count these.
I think the observation of @Denkt is spot on except for the part @pheonicia already mentioned.

If it's an abstracted resource that defies tangibility except through use in the service of other things, that opens up a lot of 'mana' like things.

Secret Society Devotion?
Grace with China?
Decadence?

Just for starters...

I really don't know if this is a useful differentiation, all things tolled. Like what does this point of differention between games serve in analysis other than 'it exists' or 'it doesn't exist'
 
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