Do you consider Italy a major power?

[Akaoni]

the problem of the "Reggio" planes (RE and Numero) were excellent but ... too little products! Like the famous Jet that I placed the link, it remained a prototype, perhaps with a "Czech alley" jet system without further development, but it was still a jet! And realistically (don't watch the game) a jet shoots you down 10 normal planes and it doesn't get shot down! Balbo was also a good general (he wanted to wage blitzkrieg in Africa). Unfortunately he died. He was the only Italian general to receive from the English a crown of flowers (thrown from a plane) with a message that was more or less this "Honor to a great general, which fate has unfortunately put on the opposite side". If you read "between the lines" you can see that only a general you fear, send these condolences. The British with Balbo were ready to pack their bags!

Basically I agree. The "Reggiane" aircrafts were good fighters (as the Macchi), but the choice to produce both (and with Fiat we have 3 different kind of fighters) was totally wrong. It would be better to choose only one and massively produce it.

About the jet prototype also you're probably right, even if the first test went bad. So they cut investments on this part and the project was stopped.

About Balbo...who knows? It was a great aviator, but indeed he cannot be considered a great general, since he never did it. (I mean: during WW1 was a good alpine, but then he focused in politics. He didn't partecipate in the ethiopian war, neither in spain, so how could you say that he's a good general?)

 

[Te. Kenzo]

You can change it to major protagonists, or major countries, if you prefer. But for me the answer is yes: ability of power projection, involvement in major diplomatic events, etc... ironically the military regime of Mussolini was especially weak in the military if compared to other countries but not in other more "peaceful" internal and foreign policies. It started especially to lack behind after '36, the international isolation and sanctions, finding shelter in the arms of Germany. After that point Italian plan where totally under the pressure of the international situation, following Hitler even in internal choiches, but without a long term plan if not the hope to be in the winning side of history and the answer was not.

 

[Selzro]

I wonder whether people who don't consider Italy a major power have actually played as a minor power. Italy has a navy worthy of a major power, a combination of industry and population exceeding minor powers by far, a large army (albeit underequiped, with small division templates) and air force. It's weak compared to other major powers (except China) but in any list there's bound to be someone at the end of it.

 

[TalyonUngol]

I just wanted to add that for me now in hoi4 Italy is strong, it is a powerful country and a full major. I personally would like their change (new focus tree) to weaken them (compared to what is now) so that the player has to somehow deal with all the real problems of the country.

A bit like in the case of the France focus tree, where (regardless of the quality of the tree) the idea (I think) was to create a country with many problems (weaker in 1936 than before the transformation), which we can guide in one direction and solve some of the most for us pressing problems. The art of choosing a few of the many useful options is something I really like about focus trees.

You can certainly expect a lots of negative national spirit given to Italy when their DLC is out.

I hope not... I really dont need to see an even WEAKER Italy. It is already hard enough and I don't really wanna play Italy: Dark Souls version.

 

[TalyonUngol]

I wonder whether people who don't consider Italy a major power have actually played as a minor power. Italy has a navy worthy of a major power, a combination of industry and population exceeding minor powers by far, a large army (albeit underequiped, with small division templates) and air force. It's weak compared to other major powers (except China) but in any list there's bound to be someone at the end of it.

Hungary is arguably a stronger nation than Italy is just based alone on their AH focus tree. I mean thats just Italys really bad focus tree. They don't get anything good going for them.

 

[Adrianuse]

Well, that's just my opinion. How many times would I play Italy (especially single player) this is a very simple game. Also in multi, I was able to beat France, even if the player on the Germans failed. Italy is too powerful from my perspective.

I understand the argument about AI, which in fact could be a zero challenge with the realisation of Italy's strength.

I don't agree that Hungary is stronger. Even creating Austo-Hungary and occupying Yugoslavia, they don't have much chance with Italy.

But of course, Italy's focus tree is poor at the moment and should be redone. However, I would prefer it not to strengthen this country.

 

[Vlad123]

Basically I agree. The "Reggiane" aircrafts were good fighters (as the Macchi), but the choice to produce both (and with Fiat we have 3 different kind of fighters) was totally wrong. It would be better to choose only one and massively produce it.

About the jet prototype also you're probably right, even if the first test went bad. So they cut investments on this part and the project was stopped.

About Balbo...who knows? It was a great aviator, but indeed he cannot be considered a great general, since he never did it. (I mean: during WW1 was a good alpine, but then he focused in politics. He didn't partecipate in the ethiopian war, neither in spain, so how could you say that he's a good general?)

From what little I know, he had carefully studied the German blitzkrieg and was not fascinated by it. He wanted to try to do it immediately, he was pawing to move. Instead, his replacement remained stationary for almost 4 months giving the British plenty of time to calm down, drink tea, request reinforcements, drink another tea and prepare the offensive / counter-offensive.

 

[Akaoni]

From what little I know, he had carefully studied the German blitzkrieg and was not fascinated by it. He wanted to try to do it immediately, he was pawing to move. Instead, his replacement remained stationary for almost 4 months giving the British plenty of time to calm down, drink tea, request reinforcements, drink another tea and prepare the offensive / counter-offensive.

What I would say is that "maybe, from a theoretical point of view, he could have been a good general, but we cannot be sure because we have no evidence".

 

[Vlad123]

What I would say is that "maybe, from a theoretical point of view, he could have been a good general, but we cannot be sure because we have no evidence".

This is also true, but the fact that he studied the blitzkrieg and wanted to replicate it in africa (therefore WW2 mentality and not WW1 like 99% of the generals) is already something more ...

 

[Akaoni]

Anyway, I created a Mod on Steam focused on Italy: if you would like to take a look and add suggestions I surely appreciate

 

[Selzro]

Hungary is arguably a stronger nation than Italy is just based alone on their AH focus tree. I mean thats just Italys really bad focus tree. They don't get anything good going for them.

If a player manages to very ahistorically reform AH with Hungry, then Hungary can become a major power (whether more or less powerful than Italy is arguable). But a player can turn pretty much any country into a major power, given enough time and skill. That does not make those countries intrinsically major.

 

[TalyonUngol]

Well, that's just my opinion. How many times would I play Italy (especially single player) this is a very simple game. Also in multi, I was able to beat France, even if the player on the Germans failed. Italy is too powerful from my perspective.

I understand the argument about AI, which in fact could be a zero challenge with the realisation of Italy's strength.

I don't agree that Hungary is stronger. Even creating Austo-Hungary and occupying Yugoslavia, they don't have much chance with Italy.

But of course, Italy's focus tree is poor at the moment and should be redone. However, I would prefer it not to strengthen this country.

Italys strength? What exactly is italys strenngth? They are the -WORST- major in the game. France, Uk, Germany, Japan, Arguably China, Soviet Union are -ALL- superior.

Italy only has one chance to actually do something in a match and that's only by a player and only if you really really gimmick and cheat the system. If you play Italy 'historically' as they were meant to, you'll do absolutely nothing in a match. Germany will gobble up everything from you.

Italy is already garbage and you are asking to make them even worse?

 

[TalyonUngol]

If a player manages to very ahistorically reform AH with Hungry, then Hungary can become a major power (whether more or less powerful than Italy is arguable). But a player can turn pretty much any country into a major power, given enough time and skill. That does not make those countries intrinsically major.

Yes, this game requires you to ahistorical form/reform countries in order to compete with the bigger boys. Italy is no different. It requires you to go for the Roman Empire if you want to actually compete with Germany or surpass them. Doesn't mean you need to nerf Italy into the dirt where the only thing they're good for is being Germanys slave.

 

[--Yigito123--]

Italy is basically what happens in Victoria 2 when a nation becomes the seventh great power with 30 Industry, 40 Military and 500 Prestige points.

 

[mursolini]

Hungary is arguably a stronger nation than Italy is just based alone on their AH focus tree. I mean thats just Italys really bad focus tree. They don't get anything good going for them.

Italy has nice fighter bonuses, plenty of dockyards, and can relatively easily push into middle east for oil. That is something.

Italys strength? What exactly is italys strenngth? They are the -WORST- major in the game. France, Uk, Germany, Japan, Arguably China, Soviet Union are -ALL- superior.

Italy only has one chance to actually do something in a match and that's only by a player and only if you really really gimmick and cheat the system. If you play Italy 'historically' as they were meant to, you'll do absolutely nothing in a match. Germany will gobble up everything from you.

Italy is already garbage and you are asking to make them even worse?

There is always the weakest of major. It`s just logic, if you draw a line somewhere, someone will come up last. If bar is increased, we would argue that Japan is the weakest of majors. If lowered - Poland/Netherlands weakest of majors. Poland/Netherlands are in particularly bad positions, so no point making them majors.

If you play "historically", in same sense everyone is playing Germany "historically", Italy would destroy southern of Allied flank, close up Mediterranean, capture middle-eastern oil, will fight Brits in India, and will make battle of Atlantic hell for Brits.

I mean, you can plain not lose Winter War as Finland vs Soviet AI, holding till Barbarossa hits, and decimate remains of Soviets. In MP, Italy is often key to Axis loss or victory, as it`s performance tends to swing war in either direction, and loss is devastating to Germans.

 

[TalyonUngol]

Italy has nice fighter bonuses, plenty of dockyards, and can relatively easily push into middle east for oil. That is something.

There is always the weakest of major. It`s just logic, if you draw a line somewhere, someone will come up last. If bar is increased, we would argue that Japan is the weakest of majors. If lowered - Poland/Netherlands weakest of majors. Poland/Netherlands are in particularly bad positions, so no point making them majors.

If you play "historically", in same sense everyone is playing Germany "historically", Italy would destroy southern of Allied flank, close up Mediterranean, capture middle-eastern oil, will fight Brits in India, and will make battle of Atlantic hell for Brits.

I mean, you can plain not lose Winter War as Finland vs Soviet AI, holding till Barbarossa hits, and decimate remains of Soviets. In MP, Italy is often key to Axis loss or victory, as it`s performance tends to swing war in either direction, and loss is devastating to Germans.

Okay but why should Italy receive even more nerfs to even weaken their position? You don't just nerf the weakest major.

Now, let me clarify this. Don't weaken their potiential or power that they have now. If you want to weaken their first one or two years that's one thing, but you decimate them with maluses and not give them even stronger focuses to compenstate, Italy is going to be trash. Italy requires early conquests in order to succeed right now. If they don't get their early conquests, they are out of the running.

Do I think Italy is stronger than they are historically? Sure, but why should they receieve nerfs and not every other country out there? Every country is stronger than they were historically because it makes for good gameplay. Italy does not need to receive a nerf unless -every- country receieves one.

 

[Ai Shizuka]

People needs to specify if they are talking about multiplayer, single player (AI) or single player (player).

I cannot speak about MP (never played it), but in a historical game I suspect Italy has very little chance to accomplish anything significant against equally skilled players.

In single player in the AI's hands it almost invariably fails spectacularly, which is accurate.

In the hands of the player, in my opinion, Italy is exactly where it needs to be. A minor major. You can't faceroll everything like the true majors, but it has an enormous potential to become one if you fix the historical shortcomings.
My most enjoyable games in HoI 2, 3 and 4 has been with Italy.

 

[TalyonUngol]

April 5th, 1943. The Roman Empires conquest has ended. It took them a mere 6 months to crush the Americans. All serve the Augustus! ALL HAIL AUGUSTUS MUSSOLINI!

Just take a look at the glory of all the information here.

600+ nukes.
4.79M manpower left on Extensive conscription.
9.11M fielded currently
2691 factories.

 

[TalyonUngol]

People needs to specify if they are talking about multiplayer, single player (AI) or single player (player).

I cannot speak about MP (never played it), but in a historical game I suspect Italy has very little chance to accomplish anything significant against equally skilled players.

In single player in the AI's hands it almost invariably fails spectacularly, which is accurate.

In the hands of the player, in my opinion, Italy is exactly where it needs to be. A minor major. You can't faceroll everything like the true majors, but it has an enormous potential to become one if you fix the historical shortcomings.
My most enjoyable games in HoI 2, 3 and 4 has been with Italy.

Italy is also my favorite country and I agree. in the right hands in a singleplayer match, Italy is really good. In a MP match, you're going to get steam rolled by the allies compared to Germany. Single player AI, I will see maybe 5% of Italys doing something but It might even be less than that.

 

[squid_hills]

If you want to weaken their first one or two years that's one thing, but you decimate them with maluses and not give them even stronger focuses to compenstate, Italy is going to be trash.

I currently play with a mod called "Better Italy", or something like that. Anyway, it nerfs Italy at the start of the game with a malus called "Industrial Incompetence", which lowers the production cap and gives a penalty to division attack and defense. There is a focus that removes this malus, which is buried about 4 to 5 focuses into the industrial section of the mod's focus tree. This malus stings. But you want to know the interesting thing? If you rush industrial focuses to get rid of that malus, you can have it bought off by early-mid 1937.

I think this is a good example of a positive way to "nerf" early Italy: give a malus that hurts like hell, but then make it relatively quick to remove if a player focuses on getting rid of it. Rushing to remove the malus means leaving military and political focuses until later, but as long as you attack weaker nations in your first couple wars, you can manage conquests fine. If you ignore the malus and focus on military bonuses, your army might have better performance in the field, but your industry won't be able to keep them supplied.