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Sunforged General

Major
20 Badges
Nov 8, 2017
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  • Hearts of Iron IV: Cadet
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The game UI considers it one, and some players call it a major power, but is it really? Italy is not fully industrialized during the games time period (and didn't fully industrialize historically until the 1950s.) Italy starts in 1936 with 20 civilian factories, which is barely more than what Poland has at 17, and is less than what Japan has, they have 25. The Italian navy is OK, but its smaller and less advanced than the French fleet, so Italy's navy cannot guaranty control over the waters directly around the Italian peninsula. Finally, the Italian air force starts with less fighters than France, but more bombers.

This combined with the historical fact that Italy had significant difficulty beating Ethiopia, and was outright defeated by Greece, a minor country, needing Germany to intervene to save them, leads me to believe that Italy is not a major world power, but a minor regional power.
 
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The game UI considers it one, and some players call it a major power, but is it really? Italy is not fully industrialized during the games time period (and didn't fully industrialize historically until the 1950s.) Italy starts in 1936 with 20 civilian factories, which is barely more than what Poland has at 17, and is less than what Japan has, they have 25. The Italian navy is OK, but its smaller and less advanced than the French fleet, so Italy's navy cannot guaranty control over the waters directly around the Italian peninsula. Finally, the Italian air force starts with less fighters than France, but more bombers.

This combined with the historical fact that Italy had significant difficulty beating Ethiopia, and was outright defeated by Greece, a minor country, needing Germany to intervene to save them, leads me to believe that Italy is not a major world power, but a minor regional power.
I think it's a Major Power but during ww2 Italy entered on war with Germany against France and United Kingdom on 1940, but it was still using WW1 military equipment
 
The game considers the seven most industrialized countries majors if i remember correctly so it's indeed possible to push Italy out of major status by minors industrializing faster.

Also i think every faction leader is considered a major so if Italy does Italy First they'll be a major regardless.
 
The game considers the seven most industrialized countries majors if i remember correctly so it's indeed possible to push Italy out of major status by minors industrializing faster.

Also i think every faction leader is considered a major so if Italy does Italy First they'll be a major regardless.
Yes they are a Major Nation, I mean the Italy, I'm only saying that has a major power it was having problem with the equipment because they was using outdated equipment of the First World War @kettyo
 
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Good analysis from this post of Dayyālu at the forum rpgcodex :

So, the age-old question of why Italy sucked in WW2. The question must be approched properly, because the reasons where many and interlocked.

First of all, there is a huge tradition of mostly anglo-saxon propaganda that has to be reconsidered: the Italian fighting man was on the level of most soldiers in the conflict, and when in a proper situation with proper support managed to push his weight. Italians weren't worse at war than the Rumenians, the Greeks or even the British (early war), if we consider the individual soldiers. It's simply that the single soldier was put into the shittiest situation.

Let's start with the basics: Italy was a poor country, only barely industrialized. Even Germany wasn't well-industrialized compared to the US or even the Union: Italy was an agricultural country with no natural resources , ferociously dependant on foreign import for most of the needs of modern industrialization and with a population that was mostly illiterate. Recruits with technical aptitude were rare. This means that Italian weaponry was more expensive, slower to produce and often of inferior quality if compared to others. But we'll discuss the equipment later.

One thing that the backwardness of Italian society worsened was a clear social divide between the ranks. Italy has never been good in being "unified", and it has been even worse at being a coherent Nation State. There was, and there still is, a ferocious sense of local belonging amongst most Italians: and the Italian officers had in most cases nothing but contempt for the "country bumpkins" that were in the ranks. Italian officers developed into a system that richly rewarded "office warriors", meaning Italy had a shitton of administrative officers and lacked trained field officers and NCOs, and the reserve dumped people unfit for service. This meant that for the field officers you had people that lacked training, grit and sense of responsability: and the higher ranks were mostly promoted out of family connections or political support. Furthermore, they were a different social class: Italian officers enjoyed the perks of their rank, had different food and lodgings, and that caused negative morale consequences for the rank-and-file. R&R instead for the common ranks was atrocious (some men in North Africa or in the Balkans fought for three years straight with no relief or pauses). In short, Italian officers were badly trained bourgeoisie that often lacked the loyalty of their own men if not for military discipline, a thing harshly enforced. Furthermore, Italian society, despite twenty years of Fascism, utterly lacked the motivation for "total war" and openly despised the Germans: OVRA reports are an amusing read as the common view of the German Ally was terrible. Admired for their technical prowess, considered brutal barbarians in all other regards. With such allies...

Wait, you can ask, how the heck Mussolini in TWENTY YEARS failed to build enough support for a good war and for his regime? The thing is two-fold: first, the Fascist Regime had the support of the population in a very.... Italian way, so as long as the population got enough gibsmedat everything was good. When that failed to keep up only the True Believers stuck with the Duce, a stunning minority. Second, the Fascist Regime was outwardly powerful: in reality, Mussolini had a stunning amount of problems caused by opposing powers inside Italy: the King himself, the Church, the industrial powers, his own party organization.... the propaganda painted the Duce as an all-powerful figure, but in reality you had this schizophrenic situation where everyone technically followed Mussolini but at the same time the real power of the Fascist State was limited. Lemme explain with an example: tank production. Italian tanks were shit. FIAT-ANSALDO , the main industrial conglomerate that built Italian tanks, managed for more than 15 years to keep an iron grip on Italian tank production sinking all opposition, be it Czechs, other italian designers or even German models: the Italian leadership knew that the product was shit, but "nothing could be done" as you could not directly oppose FIAT-ANSALDO because if you bought other tanks then FIAT would have closed their factories and you would have gotten strikes and a loss of popularity that Mussolini could ill-afford. Yes, i'm literally telling you that the fascist State bought shitty weapons because it was hostage of corporate interests. Same applies with the Navy and the Air Force, with a bunch of hilarious examples of subpar prototypes or corruption scandals.

It's weird, but ... Mussolini was the main power everyone referred to (the biggest strategical mistakes he did single-handedly) but at the same time his power to really influence the Italian society was incredibly limited, propaganda boasts aside. Furthermore, the fascist party had never managed to do a proper "revolution" despite claims: until 1943 and the RSI, Fascism pretty much protected the old elites, worsening the traditional italian problems of backwardness, corruption and nepotism. Scientific research and weapon development were secondary to political and family considerations: for example, Italy threw out a shitton of bomber prototypes, most of them clearly unviable, just to give chances for embezzlement. You can say that all countries had such things (the "feudal" industrial system of Nazi Germany or even the initial crony corruption inside the SU) but the problem in Italy was so common that it actively fucked up weapon design and production.

Furthermore, Italy lacked resources or stockpiles for a modern war. Italy in 1940 had already burned considerable resources into colonial expeditions (Ethiopia) or in the Spanish Civil War, with thousands of trucks and hundreds of artillery pieces sent to fight campaigns that had little impact for Italy itself. The commercial blockade that the Allied powers forced on Italy started strangling the war economy almost immediately, and the Fascist State was ill-organized: they failed to plan for such a blockade, and if someone planned he wasn't heard because no one wanted to tell Mussolini the bad news. This takes us to another peculiar thing: Mussolini had a lot of limits, but in the end everyone deferred to him for the ultimate decisions, and Mussolini utterly lacked a trained cabinet, being surrounded by self-serving sycophants that inevitably failed to tell him the truth of the situation.

So, for the basics, you had a poor country with no resources , shitty allies, and a schizophrenic political system. That can't go wrong, no?

If we want to 'sperg on equipment, the Italian Army had hilarious problems with their equipment. Their logistics were a mess, meaning the troops were often underfed, under-equipped and under-supplied: not particularly their fault though, as the ammunition needs of italian weapons were a mess, with five to nine different calibers employed by a stunning array of borderline-functional weapons (the infamous Breda 30 LMG or the Brixia mortars). Grain loads for the guns could not be trusted (as the ammo factories had shitty checks), meaning that the already underpowered Carcano rifles had unrealiable performance. Sure, Italy had some great guns, like the MAB SMG, but this takes us to another of the basic problems of the Italian industry: it was underdeveloped. Let's take the MAB. It's a great SMG, sure, if we compare it to a PPs-43 or something. I am going from memory here, so the true data is probably different: a single MAB required more than forty hours of work done by a skilled artisan, while you could equip a squad with the same man-hours for PPs SMGs: Italian production was badly organized and tragically slow, meaning that even good designs could not be produced in numbers or replaced fast enough (case in point, the Royal Air Force). And often you had shitty designs that were kept into production for political or "Whatever we don't have anything else" reasons.

Tanks were developed by a single guy. I am not joking. All the Italian tanks were developed by a single man in a single office at the FIAT-ANSALDO, and whatever he made got okayed because reasons, fuck performance. Sum that with subpar tech and you had those beautiful riveted tankettes with the worst engines you can think of. Sure, Italian doctrine didn't focus on tanks much (it was commonly believed that the war would have been fought like in WW1, mountain front) but they were still crap.

Navy was borderline adequate (good training, some good units) but the command (SUPERMARINA) was scared of everything and lived under a costant psychological inferiority against the British. Think of..... I dunnow, Navy depression: "We can't win we can't even try if we try we're gonna lose" and thus they lost or did atrocious mistakes or suffered hilarious reversals like Taranto. The only bright spot for the Italian Navy were the frogmen, but that's a desperation weapon.

The Air force would require several paragraphs, so whatever. Let us say that it wasn't terrible, but it lacked staying power, Italian training wasn't adequate, and the Italian machines were often horribly under-armed. Go play War Thunder or something, and check how many machineguns the Italians get. Two at best, and with shitty fire rates and ammo loads. And the Italian air industry could not replace combat losses.

Do you know that Italy had an equivalent of the SS? The MVSN "Milizie Volontarie per la Sicurezza Nazionale", or commonly known as the "Camice Nere". Most of them had horrible equipment, terrible logistics, and were composed of old men that performed horribly under fire. There was a reason Hitler purged the SA as "unreliable", but Mussolini could not afford such things, so he got the shit-tier of political military units. Some of 'em weren't bad (youth units in particular) but pearls before swine.

And at last, the strategical problems. See, now we have a poor country with bad industry. What we are going to do, focus on a few theatres were we can leverage our limited strength?

No, we're Fascist Italy, we're going to send troops randomly around in Africa, in the Balkans and in Russia in a desperate attempt to ape the Germans to mantain internal support and international legitimacy. And thus you get from waging a parallel war (Greece and Africa) to be a subordinate of the Germans (Africa and the Balkans) to be a slave of the Germans (Russia, Italy, RSI). Because you sent your troops into situations they could only lose, and thus you start a negative spiral of self-crippling choices and political disasters. Italy in WW2 is the direct opposite of the concept of "concentration of forces": it was literally "dispersion of forces" at its best.

Now I'm fucking tired and I've sperged enough on the subject. If you have specific questions, go wild, if I can I'll reply. All typos and mistakes are mine.

 
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I like playing Italy, this is my favorite faction after the USSR. Because in the game she can do something that she can never do herself, for example, capture the USSR, it is quite easy to do. But historically, Hungary is a more serious ally of Germany and fought to the end. Hungary designed and developed better tanks than Italy, but suffered disastrously from a lack of production.
 
They have the potential if controlled by a player to become a major. Either by Roman Empire shenanigans or just making lots of puppets in your easily conquerable neighbors.
 
So, the age-old question of why Italy sucked in WW2. The question must be approched properly, because the reasons where many and interlocked.

First of all, there is a huge tradition of mostly anglo-saxon propaganda that has to be reconsidered: the Italian fighting man was on the level of most soldiers in the conflict, and when in a proper situation with proper support managed to push his weight. Italians weren't worse at war than the Rumenians, the Greeks or even the British (early war), if we consider the individual soldiers. It's simply that the single soldier was put into the shittiest situation.

Let's start with the basics: Italy was a poor country, only barely industrialized. Even Germany wasn't well-industrialized compared to the US or even the Union: Italy was an agricultural country with no natural resources , ferociously dependant on foreign import for most of the needs of modern industrialization and with a population that was mostly illiterate. Recruits with technical aptitude were rare. This means that Italian weaponry was more expensive, slower to produce and often of inferior quality if compared to others. But we'll discuss the equipment later.

One thing that the backwardness of Italian society worsened was a clear social divide between the ranks. Italy has never been good in being "unified", and it has been even worse at being a coherent Nation State. There was, and there still is, a ferocious sense of local belonging amongst most Italians: and the Italian officers had in most cases nothing but contempt for the "country bumpkins" that were in the ranks. Italian officers developed into a system that richly rewarded "office warriors", meaning Italy had a shitton of administrative officers and lacked trained field officers and NCOs, and the reserve dumped people unfit for service. This meant that for the field officers you had people that lacked training, grit and sense of responsability: and the higher ranks were mostly promoted out of family connections or political support. Furthermore, they were a different social class: Italian officers enjoyed the perks of their rank, had different food and lodgings, and that caused negative morale consequences for the rank-and-file. R&R instead for the common ranks was atrocious (some men in North Africa or in the Balkans fought for three years straight with no relief or pauses). In short, Italian officers were badly trained bourgeoisie that often lacked the loyalty of their own men if not for military discipline, a thing harshly enforced. Furthermore, Italian society, despite twenty years of Fascism, utterly lacked the motivation for "total war" and openly despised the Germans: OVRA reports are an amusing read as the common view of the German Ally was terrible. Admired for their technical prowess, considered brutal barbarians in all other regards. With such allies...

Wait, you can ask, how the heck Mussolini in TWENTY YEARS failed to build enough support for a good war and for his regime? The thing is two-fold: first, the Fascist Regime had the support of the population in a very.... Italian way, so as long as the population got enough gibsmedat everything was good. When that failed to keep up only the True Believers stuck with the Duce, a stunning minority. Second, the Fascist Regime was outwardly powerful: in reality, Mussolini had a stunning amount of problems caused by opposing powers inside Italy: the King himself, the Church, the industrial powers, his own party organization.... the propaganda painted the Duce as an all-powerful figure, but in reality you had this schizophrenic situation where everyone technically followed Mussolini but at the same time the real power of the Fascist State was limited. Lemme explain with an example: tank production. Italian tanks were shit. FIAT-ANSALDO , the main industrial conglomerate that built Italian tanks, managed for more than 15 years to keep an iron grip on Italian tank production sinking all opposition, be it Czechs, other italian designers or even German models: the Italian leadership knew that the product was shit, but "nothing could be done" as you could not directly oppose FIAT-ANSALDO because if you bought other tanks then FIAT would have closed their factories and you would have gotten strikes and a loss of popularity that Mussolini could ill-afford. Yes, i'm literally telling you that the fascist State bought shitty weapons because it was hostage of corporate interests. Same applies with the Navy and the Air Force, with a bunch of hilarious examples of subpar prototypes or corruption scandals.

It's weird, but ... Mussolini was the main power everyone referred to (the biggest strategical mistakes he did single-handedly) but at the same time his power to really influence the Italian society was incredibly limited, propaganda boasts aside. Furthermore, the fascist party had never managed to do a proper "revolution" despite claims: until 1943 and the RSI, Fascism pretty much protected the old elites, worsening the traditional italian problems of backwardness, corruption and nepotism. Scientific research and weapon development were secondary to political and family considerations: for example, Italy threw out a shitton of bomber prototypes, most of them clearly unviable, just to give chances for embezzlement. You can say that all countries had such things (the "feudal" industrial system of Nazi Germany or even the initial crony corruption inside the SU) but the problem in Italy was so common that it actively fucked up weapon design and production.

Furthermore, Italy lacked resources or stockpiles for a modern war. Italy in 1940 had already burned considerable resources into colonial expeditions (Ethiopia) or in the Spanish Civil War, with thousands of trucks and hundreds of artillery pieces sent to fight campaigns that had little impact for Italy itself. The commercial blockade that the Allied powers forced on Italy started strangling the war economy almost immediately, and the Fascist State was ill-organized: they failed to plan for such a blockade, and if someone planned he wasn't heard because no one wanted to tell Mussolini the bad news. This takes us to another peculiar thing: Mussolini had a lot of limits, but in the end everyone deferred to him for the ultimate decisions, and Mussolini utterly lacked a trained cabinet, being surrounded by self-serving sycophants that inevitably failed to tell him the truth of the situation.

So, for the basics, you had a poor country with no resources , shitty allies, and a schizophrenic political system. That can't go wrong, no?

If we want to 'sperg on equipment, the Italian Army had hilarious problems with their equipment. Their logistics were a mess, meaning the troops were often underfed, under-equipped and under-supplied: not particularly their fault though, as the ammunition needs of italian weapons were a mess, with five to nine different calibers employed by a stunning array of borderline-functional weapons (the infamous Breda 30 LMG or the Brixia mortars). Grain loads for the guns could not be trusted (as the ammo factories had shitty checks), meaning that the already underpowered Carcano rifles had unrealiable performance. Sure, Italy had some great guns, like the MAB SMG, but this takes us to another of the basic problems of the Italian industry: it was underdeveloped. Let's take the MAB. It's a great SMG, sure, if we compare it to a PPs-43 or something. I am going from memory here, so the true data is probably different: a single MAB required more than forty hours of work done by a skilled artisan, while you could equip a squad with the same man-hours for PPs SMGs: Italian production was badly organized and tragically slow, meaning that even good designs could not be produced in numbers or replaced fast enough (case in point, the Royal Air Force). And often you had shitty designs that were kept into production for political or "Whatever we don't have anything else" reasons.

Tanks were developed by a single guy. I am not joking. All the Italian tanks were developed by a single man in a single office at the FIAT-ANSALDO, and whatever he made got okayed because reasons, fuck performance. Sum that with subpar tech and you had those beautiful riveted tankettes with the worst engines you can think of. Sure, Italian doctrine didn't focus on tanks much (it was commonly believed that the war would have been fought like in WW1, mountain front) but they were still crap.

Navy was borderline adequate (good training, some good units) but the command (SUPERMARINA) was scared of everything and lived under a costant psychological inferiority against the British. Think of..... I dunnow, Navy depression: "We can't win we can't even try if we try we're gonna lose" and thus they lost or did atrocious mistakes or suffered hilarious reversals like Taranto. The only bright spot for the Italian Navy were the frogmen, but that's a desperation weapon.

The Air force would require several paragraphs, so whatever. Let us say that it wasn't terrible, but it lacked staying power, Italian training wasn't adequate, and the Italian machines were often horribly under-armed. Go play War Thunder or something, and check how many machineguns the Italians get. Two at best, and with shitty fire rates and ammo loads. And the Italian air industry could not replace combat losses.

Do you know that Italy had an equivalent of the SS? The MVSN "Milizie Volontarie per la Sicurezza Nazionale", or commonly known as the "Camice Nere". Most of them had horrible equipment, terrible logistics, and were composed of old men that performed horribly under fire. There was a reason Hitler purged the SA as "unreliable", but Mussolini could not afford such things, so he got the shit-tier of political military units. Some of 'em weren't bad (youth units in particular) but pearls before swine.

And at last, the strategical problems. See, now we have a poor country with bad industry. What we are going to do, focus on a few theatres were we can leverage our limited strength?

No, we're Fascist Italy, we're going to send troops randomly around in Africa, in the Balkans and in Russia in a desperate attempt to ape the Germans to mantain internal support and international legitimacy. And thus you get from waging a parallel war (Greece and Africa) to be a subordinate of the Germans (Africa and the Balkans) to be a slave of the Germans (Russia, Italy, RSI). Because you sent your troops into situations they could only lose, and thus you start a negative spiral of self-crippling choices and political disasters. Italy in WW2 is the direct opposite of the concept of "concentration of forces": it was literally "dispersion of forces" at its best.

Now I'm fucking tired and I've sperged enough on the subject. If you have specific questions, go wild, if I can I'll reply. All typos and mistakes are mine.

This is actually informative and entertaining, thank you! I knew Italy had many problems, but i didn't know they were this extensive and severe. I find it amusing FIAT-ASALDO was able to strong arm the regime into accepting their demands, and all their tanks were designed by one man.
 
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This is actually informative and entertaining, thank you! I knew Italy had many problems, but i didn't know they were this extensive and severe. I find it amusing FIAT-ASALDO was able to strong arm the regime into accepting their demands, and all their tanks were designed by one man.

I think one important thing for when they make the tree is to show that if Italy appears to be unified under a strong leadership (what fascism is supposed to be about), it is in reality on the surface, and if you try to reform the industry or the army etc... strong opposition should come in play from old corrupt corporations, the generals, the church, the King etc..
 
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So, the age-old question of why Italy sucked in WW2. The question must be approched properly, because the reasons where many and interlocked.

First of all, there is a huge tradition of mostly anglo-saxon propaganda that has to be reconsidered: the Italian fighting man was on the level of most soldiers in the conflict, and when in a proper situation with proper support managed to push his weight. Italians weren't worse at war than the Rumenians, the Greeks or even the British (early war), if we consider the individual soldiers. It's simply that the single soldier was put into the shittiest situation.

Let's start with the basics: Italy was a poor country, only barely industrialized. Even Germany wasn't well-industrialized compared to the US or even the Union: Italy was an agricultural country with no natural resources , ferociously dependant on foreign import for most of the needs of modern industrialization and with a population that was mostly illiterate. Recruits with technical aptitude were rare. This means that Italian weaponry was more expensive, slower to produce and often of inferior quality if compared to others. But we'll discuss the equipment later.

One thing that the backwardness of Italian society worsened was a clear social divide between the ranks. Italy has never been good in being "unified", and it has been even worse at being a coherent Nation State. There was, and there still is, a ferocious sense of local belonging amongst most Italians: and the Italian officers had in most cases nothing but contempt for the "country bumpkins" that were in the ranks. Italian officers developed into a system that richly rewarded "office warriors", meaning Italy had a shitton of administrative officers and lacked trained field officers and NCOs, and the reserve dumped people unfit for service. This meant that for the field officers you had people that lacked training, grit and sense of responsability: and the higher ranks were mostly promoted out of family connections or political support. Furthermore, they were a different social class: Italian officers enjoyed the perks of their rank, had different food and lodgings, and that caused negative morale consequences for the rank-and-file. R&R instead for the common ranks was atrocious (some men in North Africa or in the Balkans fought for three years straight with no relief or pauses). In short, Italian officers were badly trained bourgeoisie that often lacked the loyalty of their own men if not for military discipline, a thing harshly enforced. Furthermore, Italian society, despite twenty years of Fascism, utterly lacked the motivation for "total war" and openly despised the Germans: OVRA reports are an amusing read as the common view of the German Ally was terrible. Admired for their technical prowess, considered brutal barbarians in all other regards. With such allies...

Wait, you can ask, how the heck Mussolini in TWENTY YEARS failed to build enough support for a good war and for his regime? The thing is two-fold: first, the Fascist Regime had the support of the population in a very.... Italian way, so as long as the population got enough gibsmedat everything was good. When that failed to keep up only the True Believers stuck with the Duce, a stunning minority. Second, the Fascist Regime was outwardly powerful: in reality, Mussolini had a stunning amount of problems caused by opposing powers inside Italy: the King himself, the Church, the industrial powers, his own party organization.... the propaganda painted the Duce as an all-powerful figure, but in reality you had this schizophrenic situation where everyone technically followed Mussolini but at the same time the real power of the Fascist State was limited. Lemme explain with an example: tank production. Italian tanks were shit. FIAT-ANSALDO , the main industrial conglomerate that built Italian tanks, managed for more than 15 years to keep an iron grip on Italian tank production sinking all opposition, be it Czechs, other italian designers or even German models: the Italian leadership knew that the product was shit, but "nothing could be done" as you could not directly oppose FIAT-ANSALDO because if you bought other tanks then FIAT would have closed their factories and you would have gotten strikes and a loss of popularity that Mussolini could ill-afford. Yes, i'm literally telling you that the fascist State bought shitty weapons because it was hostage of corporate interests. Same applies with the Navy and the Air Force, with a bunch of hilarious examples of subpar prototypes or corruption scandals.

It's weird, but ... Mussolini was the main power everyone referred to (the biggest strategical mistakes he did single-handedly) but at the same time his power to really influence the Italian society was incredibly limited, propaganda boasts aside. Furthermore, the fascist party had never managed to do a proper "revolution" despite claims: until 1943 and the RSI, Fascism pretty much protected the old elites, worsening the traditional italian problems of backwardness, corruption and nepotism. Scientific research and weapon development were secondary to political and family considerations: for example, Italy threw out a shitton of bomber prototypes, most of them clearly unviable, just to give chances for embezzlement. You can say that all countries had such things (the "feudal" industrial system of Nazi Germany or even the initial crony corruption inside the SU) but the problem in Italy was so common that it actively fucked up weapon design and production.

Furthermore, Italy lacked resources or stockpiles for a modern war. Italy in 1940 had already burned considerable resources into colonial expeditions (Ethiopia) or in the Spanish Civil War, with thousands of trucks and hundreds of artillery pieces sent to fight campaigns that had little impact for Italy itself. The commercial blockade that the Allied powers forced on Italy started strangling the war economy almost immediately, and the Fascist State was ill-organized: they failed to plan for such a blockade, and if someone planned he wasn't heard because no one wanted to tell Mussolini the bad news. This takes us to another peculiar thing: Mussolini had a lot of limits, but in the end everyone deferred to him for the ultimate decisions, and Mussolini utterly lacked a trained cabinet, being surrounded by self-serving sycophants that inevitably failed to tell him the truth of the situation.

So, for the basics, you had a poor country with no resources , shitty allies, and a schizophrenic political system. That can't go wrong, no?

If we want to 'sperg on equipment, the Italian Army had hilarious problems with their equipment. Their logistics were a mess, meaning the troops were often underfed, under-equipped and under-supplied: not particularly their fault though, as the ammunition needs of italian weapons were a mess, with five to nine different calibers employed by a stunning array of borderline-functional weapons (the infamous Breda 30 LMG or the Brixia mortars). Grain loads for the guns could not be trusted (as the ammo factories had shitty checks), meaning that the already underpowered Carcano rifles had unrealiable performance. Sure, Italy had some great guns, like the MAB SMG, but this takes us to another of the basic problems of the Italian industry: it was underdeveloped. Let's take the MAB. It's a great SMG, sure, if we compare it to a PPs-43 or something. I am going from memory here, so the true data is probably different: a single MAB required more than forty hours of work done by a skilled artisan, while you could equip a squad with the same man-hours for PPs SMGs: Italian production was badly organized and tragically slow, meaning that even good designs could not be produced in numbers or replaced fast enough (case in point, the Royal Air Force). And often you had shitty designs that were kept into production for political or "Whatever we don't have anything else" reasons.

Tanks were developed by a single guy. I am not joking. All the Italian tanks were developed by a single man in a single office at the FIAT-ANSALDO, and whatever he made got okayed because reasons, fuck performance. Sum that with subpar tech and you had those beautiful riveted tankettes with the worst engines you can think of. Sure, Italian doctrine didn't focus on tanks much (it was commonly believed that the war would have been fought like in WW1, mountain front) but they were still crap.

Navy was borderline adequate (good training, some good units) but the command (SUPERMARINA) was scared of everything and lived under a costant psychological inferiority against the British. Think of..... I dunnow, Navy depression: "We can't win we can't even try if we try we're gonna lose" and thus they lost or did atrocious mistakes or suffered hilarious reversals like Taranto. The only bright spot for the Italian Navy were the frogmen, but that's a desperation weapon.

The Air force would require several paragraphs, so whatever. Let us say that it wasn't terrible, but it lacked staying power, Italian training wasn't adequate, and the Italian machines were often horribly under-armed. Go play War Thunder or something, and check how many machineguns the Italians get. Two at best, and with shitty fire rates and ammo loads. And the Italian air industry could not replace combat losses.

Do you know that Italy had an equivalent of the SS? The MVSN "Milizie Volontarie per la Sicurezza Nazionale", or commonly known as the "Camice Nere". Most of them had horrible equipment, terrible logistics, and were composed of old men that performed horribly under fire. There was a reason Hitler purged the SA as "unreliable", but Mussolini could not afford such things, so he got the shit-tier of political military units. Some of 'em weren't bad (youth units in particular) but pearls before swine.

And at last, the strategical problems. See, now we have a poor country with bad industry. What we are going to do, focus on a few theatres were we can leverage our limited strength?

No, we're Fascist Italy, we're going to send troops randomly around in Africa, in the Balkans and in Russia in a desperate attempt to ape the Germans to mantain internal support and international legitimacy. And thus you get from waging a parallel war (Greece and Africa) to be a subordinate of the Germans (Africa and the Balkans) to be a slave of the Germans (Russia, Italy, RSI). Because you sent your troops into situations they could only lose, and thus you start a negative spiral of self-crippling choices and political disasters. Italy in WW2 is the direct opposite of the concept of "concentration of forces": it was literally "dispersion of forces" at its best.

Now I'm fucking tired and I've sperged enough on the subject. If you have specific questions, go wild, if I can I'll reply. All typos and mistakes are mine.

We also add that often the visionary scientists (Fermi, Majorana, Marconi ...) either died before completing their studies (Marconi, Majorana, for the radar or other) or they left (fermi had a Jewish wife and left with racial laws). Some jet prototypes https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Caproni_Campini_N.1 (read the Italian version with the translator, should have more information) Imagine a team of 100 jets in the skies in 1939/40! A disaster for the Allies! Italy's problem has always been this Too late and / or products in low numbers. Sometimes Italy was able to produce wonderful or avant-garde things. In Italy there are two sayings: "The German soldier amazed the world, the Italian soldier amazed the German soldier"
"Excellent soldiers, bad officers, this is Italy" In fact the same rommel was often amazed by the Italian soldiers and a team of tanks of M / 15 class tanks (if I remember correctly) managed to resist enough to allow the DAK and the Italian forces to withdraw calmly. If you do a search (on Italian military sites) you will find hundreds of testimonies of Italian soldiers who have given enormous value (the cavalry charge of Amedeo Guillet that stopped the British or the Italian cavalry charge in Russia that destroyed the Soviets). Unfortunately the only two "good" commanders that Italy had (Balbo and Messe) one died shortly after entering the war (officially due to an accident ... but according to some rumors it was either Mussolini or British intelligence to kill him making him pass for an accident. The British feared him a lot, in fact, he was perhaps the only Italian officer to receive a wreath from the British). Due to Balbo's death the attack was postponed for 4-5 months! Yes, you read that right 4-5 MONTHS! Giving the British plenty of time to regroup. I am not saying that there were perhaps no despicable ones in Egypt, but certainly a blitzkrieg attack, as he wanted to stammer, would have had a lot of effect. And in the Middle East, instead, they expected the Italians as liberators. Ironically, in hoi4, this is simulated well (at least in my games) if I immediately attack the British I drive them out with disarming ease. If, on the other hand, I think of something else, they reinforce themselves and chasing them is a feat! Balbo also appreciated men like Amedeo Guillet (the Italian Lawrance of Arabia) and would have been even more successful than the famous Lawrance, had he had the funds from Italy (rumors say that Balbo was precisely working to favor Amedeo, but they are precisely voices). The other, Messe, on the other hand, was despised by his superiors (the only officer coming from the rank of soldier for merit). Regarding Fiat-Ansaldo it did not want to use the FREE licenses of the panzers III and IV (and I remember that the panzer IV entered in 36 and Hitler gave the licenses, never used by Italy, precisely with the steel pact, therefore 1 year to produce them , there was!)
 
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So, the age-old question of why Italy sucked in WW2. The question must be approched properly, because the reasons where many and interlocked.

First of all, there is a huge tradition of mostly anglo-saxon propaganda that has to be reconsidered: the Italian fighting man was on the level of most soldiers in the conflict, and when in a proper situation with proper support managed to push his weight. Italians weren't worse at war than the Rumenians, the Greeks or even the British (early war), if we consider the individual soldiers. It's simply that the single soldier was put into the shittiest situation.

Let's start with the basics: Italy was a poor country, only barely industrialized. Even Germany wasn't well-industrialized compared to the US or even the Union: Italy was an agricultural country with no natural resources , ferociously dependant on foreign import for most of the needs of modern industrialization and with a population that was mostly illiterate. Recruits with technical aptitude were rare. This means that Italian weaponry was more expensive, slower to produce and often of inferior quality if compared to others. But we'll discuss the equipment later.

One thing that the backwardness of Italian society worsened was a clear social divide between the ranks. Italy has never been good in being "unified", and it has been even worse at being a coherent Nation State. There was, and there still is, a ferocious sense of local belonging amongst most Italians: and the Italian officers had in most cases nothing but contempt for the "country bumpkins" that were in the ranks. Italian officers developed into a system that richly rewarded "office warriors", meaning Italy had a shitton of administrative officers and lacked trained field officers and NCOs, and the reserve dumped people unfit for service. This meant that for the field officers you had people that lacked training, grit and sense of responsability: and the higher ranks were mostly promoted out of family connections or political support. Furthermore, they were a different social class: Italian officers enjoyed the perks of their rank, had different food and lodgings, and that caused negative morale consequences for the rank-and-file. R&R instead for the common ranks was atrocious (some men in North Africa or in the Balkans fought for three years straight with no relief or pauses). In short, Italian officers were badly trained bourgeoisie that often lacked the loyalty of their own men if not for military discipline, a thing harshly enforced. Furthermore, Italian society, despite twenty years of Fascism, utterly lacked the motivation for "total war" and openly despised the Germans: OVRA reports are an amusing read as the common view of the German Ally was terrible. Admired for their technical prowess, considered brutal barbarians in all other regards. With such allies...

Wait, you can ask, how the heck Mussolini in TWENTY YEARS failed to build enough support for a good war and for his regime? The thing is two-fold: first, the Fascist Regime had the support of the population in a very.... Italian way, so as long as the population got enough gibsmedat everything was good. When that failed to keep up only the True Believers stuck with the Duce, a stunning minority. Second, the Fascist Regime was outwardly powerful: in reality, Mussolini had a stunning amount of problems caused by opposing powers inside Italy: the King himself, the Church, the industrial powers, his own party organization.... the propaganda painted the Duce as an all-powerful figure, but in reality you had this schizophrenic situation where everyone technically followed Mussolini but at the same time the real power of the Fascist State was limited. Lemme explain with an example: tank production. Italian tanks were shit. FIAT-ANSALDO , the main industrial conglomerate that built Italian tanks, managed for more than 15 years to keep an iron grip on Italian tank production sinking all opposition, be it Czechs, other italian designers or even German models: the Italian leadership knew that the product was shit, but "nothing could be done" as you could not directly oppose FIAT-ANSALDO because if you bought other tanks then FIAT would have closed their factories and you would have gotten strikes and a loss of popularity that Mussolini could ill-afford. Yes, i'm literally telling you that the fascist State bought shitty weapons because it was hostage of corporate interests. Same applies with the Navy and the Air Force, with a bunch of hilarious examples of subpar prototypes or corruption scandals.

It's weird, but ... Mussolini was the main power everyone referred to (the biggest strategical mistakes he did single-handedly) but at the same time his power to really influence the Italian society was incredibly limited, propaganda boasts aside. Furthermore, the fascist party had never managed to do a proper "revolution" despite claims: until 1943 and the RSI, Fascism pretty much protected the old elites, worsening the traditional italian problems of backwardness, corruption and nepotism. Scientific research and weapon development were secondary to political and family considerations: for example, Italy threw out a shitton of bomber prototypes, most of them clearly unviable, just to give chances for embezzlement. You can say that all countries had such things (the "feudal" industrial system of Nazi Germany or even the initial crony corruption inside the SU) but the problem in Italy was so common that it actively fucked up weapon design and production.

Furthermore, Italy lacked resources or stockpiles for a modern war. Italy in 1940 had already burned considerable resources into colonial expeditions (Ethiopia) or in the Spanish Civil War, with thousands of trucks and hundreds of artillery pieces sent to fight campaigns that had little impact for Italy itself. The commercial blockade that the Allied powers forced on Italy started strangling the war economy almost immediately, and the Fascist State was ill-organized: they failed to plan for such a blockade, and if someone planned he wasn't heard because no one wanted to tell Mussolini the bad news. This takes us to another peculiar thing: Mussolini had a lot of limits, but in the end everyone deferred to him for the ultimate decisions, and Mussolini utterly lacked a trained cabinet, being surrounded by self-serving sycophants that inevitably failed to tell him the truth of the situation.

So, for the basics, you had a poor country with no resources , shitty allies, and a schizophrenic political system. That can't go wrong, no?

If we want to 'sperg on equipment, the Italian Army had hilarious problems with their equipment. Their logistics were a mess, meaning the troops were often underfed, under-equipped and under-supplied: not particularly their fault though, as the ammunition needs of italian weapons were a mess, with five to nine different calibers employed by a stunning array of borderline-functional weapons (the infamous Breda 30 LMG or the Brixia mortars). Grain loads for the guns could not be trusted (as the ammo factories had shitty checks), meaning that the already underpowered Carcano rifles had unrealiable performance. Sure, Italy had some great guns, like the MAB SMG, but this takes us to another of the basic problems of the Italian industry: it was underdeveloped. Let's take the MAB. It's a great SMG, sure, if we compare it to a PPs-43 or something. I am going from memory here, so the true data is probably different: a single MAB required more than forty hours of work done by a skilled artisan, while you could equip a squad with the same man-hours for PPs SMGs: Italian production was badly organized and tragically slow, meaning that even good designs could not be produced in numbers or replaced fast enough (case in point, the Royal Air Force). And often you had shitty designs that were kept into production for political or "Whatever we don't have anything else" reasons.

Tanks were developed by a single guy. I am not joking. All the Italian tanks were developed by a single man in a single office at the FIAT-ANSALDO, and whatever he made got okayed because reasons, fuck performance. Sum that with subpar tech and you had those beautiful riveted tankettes with the worst engines you can think of. Sure, Italian doctrine didn't focus on tanks much (it was commonly believed that the war would have been fought like in WW1, mountain front) but they were still crap.

Navy was borderline adequate (good training, some good units) but the command (SUPERMARINA) was scared of everything and lived under a costant psychological inferiority against the British. Think of..... I dunnow, Navy depression: "We can't win we can't even try if we try we're gonna lose" and thus they lost or did atrocious mistakes or suffered hilarious reversals like Taranto. The only bright spot for the Italian Navy were the frogmen, but that's a desperation weapon.

The Air force would require several paragraphs, so whatever. Let us say that it wasn't terrible, but it lacked staying power, Italian training wasn't adequate, and the Italian machines were often horribly under-armed. Go play War Thunder or something, and check how many machineguns the Italians get. Two at best, and with shitty fire rates and ammo loads. And the Italian air industry could not replace combat losses.

Do you know that Italy had an equivalent of the SS? The MVSN "Milizie Volontarie per la Sicurezza Nazionale", or commonly known as the "Camice Nere". Most of them had horrible equipment, terrible logistics, and were composed of old men that performed horribly under fire. There was a reason Hitler purged the SA as "unreliable", but Mussolini could not afford such things, so he got the shit-tier of political military units. Some of 'em weren't bad (youth units in particular) but pearls before swine.

And at last, the strategical problems. See, now we have a poor country with bad industry. What we are going to do, focus on a few theatres were we can leverage our limited strength?

No, we're Fascist Italy, we're going to send troops randomly around in Africa, in the Balkans and in Russia in a desperate attempt to ape the Germans to mantain internal support and international legitimacy. And thus you get from waging a parallel war (Greece and Africa) to be a subordinate of the Germans (Africa and the Balkans) to be a slave of the Germans (Russia, Italy, RSI). Because you sent your troops into situations they could only lose, and thus you start a negative spiral of self-crippling choices and political disasters. Italy in WW2 is the direct opposite of the concept of "concentration of forces": it was literally "dispersion of forces" at its best.

Now I'm fucking tired and I've sperged enough on the subject. If you have specific questions, go wild, if I can I'll reply. All typos and mistakes are mine.


Great post. I really love playing Italy and hope that their focus tree when reworked could reflect all of that. For me Italy should not have to choice between communism, fascism or democracy, but what to fix before ww2 erupt :
- Do we focus on stability and diplomacy - historical choices
- Do we focus on fixing chain of command
- Do we focus on industry
etc...

I will had to what you wrote :
Italian planes problem wasn't weaponry, but engines. Italy, for all the reason you depicted, didn't managed to developp any in-line engines until germany licenced them to produce copy of theirs engines. Until that, they were stuck with radial engines with limited power. Their main fighter, MC200 Saetta, only have a 840hp engine ! So they had to made it as light as possible, carry only a pair of .50 machine guns.
With such a limited engine, it was capable of 512 kph, showing how aerodynamically good was its frame. The fun thing with that plane is that it was first designed with an enclosed cockpit (for aerodynamic performance) but old conservative air officers who previously fought with biplans decided that it was heresy (because with an enclosed cockpit you cannot move your head as well as in an open one). The open cockpit added drag and reduced the already limited speed.
Another major problem was the lack of coordination between navy, army and airforce.
 
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Great post. I really love playing Italy and hope that their focus tree when reworked could reflect all of that. For me Italy should not have to choice between communism, fascism or democracy, but what to fix before ww2 erupt :
- Do we focus on stability and diplomacy - historical choices
- Do we focus on fixing chain of command
- Do we focus on industry
etc...

I must make clear that I am not the author of this post, I c/c it from a forum discussion I linked.

What you say touches the problem of how the focus trees are designed by the devs ; do they focus on plausible alt-history (what you propose) or more outlandish possibilities that are present in many trees. Like you I think they should chose the former, there is plenty of matter for plausible alt history for Italy. Alternatively, each of the communism, fascism or democracy paths should have to tackle by their own way the structural problems Italy faces
 
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I must make clear that I am not the author of this post, I c/c it from a forum discussion I linked.

What you say touches the problem of how the focus trees are designed by the devs ; do they focus on plausible alt-history (what you propose) or more outlandish possibilities that are present in many trees. Like you I think they should chose the former, there is plenty of matter for plausible alt history for Italy. Alternatively, each of the communism, fascism or democracy paths should have to tackle by their own way the structural problems Italy faces
the ideal would be that the "renovation" focus is a "mini tree" apart.
 
Italy is a major, but only barely. It is in the most unstable position and is the easiest for a minor to surpass. But it has potential. And if its limited resources are leveraged well in the early game, you can accomplish a great deal in a short time. My most recent Italy game had me annex the Netherlands, Continental France, and Austria (up yours, Adolf) and puppetting the DEI and French Colonial territories. Before 1938.

And I'm not really that good of a player.

But I'll freely admit that my first few games as Italy were more of a fustercluck than you'd imagine. I played Italy after putting a couple hundred hours into the game as Germany and the UK, and an outside observer watching those first few Italy games would think I had spent all my time sticking forks into electrical sockets, instead.
 
My first game with Italy done well (excluding those to learn how to play) I took the Balkans, Greece and I joined Suez. Beyond I was unable to do (either from experience, or from the will to continue)But, if hoi4 hurts MANY THINGS, ironically the Italian situation is perfect, or rather it is "Italy at its best". In all my games, Italy always manages to get into suez! ALWAYS! In one match she managed to beat France alone, to land in the UK and to win! With neutral Germany (for a mysterious reason united with the comitern) it did almost nothing. Italy's hoi4 AI is perhaps one of the best (at least in my games) if not the best, for what it does.
 
Good analysis from this post of Dayyālu at the forum rpgcodex :

So, the age-old question of why Italy sucked in WW2. The question must be approched properly, because the reasons where many and interlocked.

First of all, there is a huge tradition of mostly anglo-saxon propaganda that has to be reconsidered: the Italian fighting man was on the level of most soldiers in the conflict, and when in a proper situation with proper support managed to push his weight. Italians weren't worse at war than the Rumenians, the Greeks or even the British (early war), if we consider the individual soldiers. It's simply that the single soldier was put into the shittiest situation.

Let's start with the basics: Italy was a poor country, only barely industrialized. Even Germany wasn't well-industrialized compared to the US or even the Union: Italy was an agricultural country with no natural resources , ferociously dependant on foreign import for most of the needs of modern industrialization and with a population that was mostly illiterate. Recruits with technical aptitude were rare. This means that Italian weaponry was more expensive, slower to produce and often of inferior quality if compared to others. But we'll discuss the equipment later.

One thing that the backwardness of Italian society worsened was a clear social divide between the ranks. Italy has never been good in being "unified", and it has been even worse at being a coherent Nation State. There was, and there still is, a ferocious sense of local belonging amongst most Italians: and the Italian officers had in most cases nothing but contempt for the "country bumpkins" that were in the ranks. Italian officers developed into a system that richly rewarded "office warriors", meaning Italy had a shitton of administrative officers and lacked trained field officers and NCOs, and the reserve dumped people unfit for service. This meant that for the field officers you had people that lacked training, grit and sense of responsability: and the higher ranks were mostly promoted out of family connections or political support. Furthermore, they were a different social class: Italian officers enjoyed the perks of their rank, had different food and lodgings, and that caused negative morale consequences for the rank-and-file. R&R instead for the common ranks was atrocious (some men in North Africa or in the Balkans fought for three years straight with no relief or pauses). In short, Italian officers were badly trained bourgeoisie that often lacked the loyalty of their own men if not for military discipline, a thing harshly enforced. Furthermore, Italian society, despite twenty years of Fascism, utterly lacked the motivation for "total war" and openly despised the Germans: OVRA reports are an amusing read as the common view of the German Ally was terrible. Admired for their technical prowess, considered brutal barbarians in all other regards. With such allies...

Wait, you can ask, how the heck Mussolini in TWENTY YEARS failed to build enough support for a good war and for his regime? The thing is two-fold: first, the Fascist Regime had the support of the population in a very.... Italian way, so as long as the population got enough gibsmedat everything was good. When that failed to keep up only the True Believers stuck with the Duce, a stunning minority. Second, the Fascist Regime was outwardly powerful: in reality, Mussolini had a stunning amount of problems caused by opposing powers inside Italy: the King himself, the Church, the industrial powers, his own party organization.... the propaganda painted the Duce as an all-powerful figure, but in reality you had this schizophrenic situation where everyone technically followed Mussolini but at the same time the real power of the Fascist State was limited. Lemme explain with an example: tank production. Italian tanks were shit. FIAT-ANSALDO , the main industrial conglomerate that built Italian tanks, managed for more than 15 years to keep an iron grip on Italian tank production sinking all opposition, be it Czechs, other italian designers or even German models: the Italian leadership knew that the product was shit, but "nothing could be done" as you could not directly oppose FIAT-ANSALDO because if you bought other tanks then FIAT would have closed their factories and you would have gotten strikes and a loss of popularity that Mussolini could ill-afford. Yes, i'm literally telling you that the fascist State bought shitty weapons because it was hostage of corporate interests. Same applies with the Navy and the Air Force, with a bunch of hilarious examples of subpar prototypes or corruption scandals.

It's weird, but ... Mussolini was the main power everyone referred to (the biggest strategical mistakes he did single-handedly) but at the same time his power to really influence the Italian society was incredibly limited, propaganda boasts aside. Furthermore, the fascist party had never managed to do a proper "revolution" despite claims: until 1943 and the RSI, Fascism pretty much protected the old elites, worsening the traditional italian problems of backwardness, corruption and nepotism. Scientific research and weapon development were secondary to political and family considerations: for example, Italy threw out a shitton of bomber prototypes, most of them clearly unviable, just to give chances for embezzlement. You can say that all countries had such things (the "feudal" industrial system of Nazi Germany or even the initial crony corruption inside the SU) but the problem in Italy was so common that it actively fucked up weapon design and production.

Furthermore, Italy lacked resources or stockpiles for a modern war. Italy in 1940 had already burned considerable resources into colonial expeditions (Ethiopia) or in the Spanish Civil War, with thousands of trucks and hundreds of artillery pieces sent to fight campaigns that had little impact for Italy itself. The commercial blockade that the Allied powers forced on Italy started strangling the war economy almost immediately, and the Fascist State was ill-organized: they failed to plan for such a blockade, and if someone planned he wasn't heard because no one wanted to tell Mussolini the bad news. This takes us to another peculiar thing: Mussolini had a lot of limits, but in the end everyone deferred to him for the ultimate decisions, and Mussolini utterly lacked a trained cabinet, being surrounded by self-serving sycophants that inevitably failed to tell him the truth of the situation.

So, for the basics, you had a poor country with no resources , shitty allies, and a schizophrenic political system. That can't go wrong, no?

If we want to 'sperg on equipment, the Italian Army had hilarious problems with their equipment. Their logistics were a mess, meaning the troops were often underfed, under-equipped and under-supplied: not particularly their fault though, as the ammunition needs of italian weapons were a mess, with five to nine different calibers employed by a stunning array of borderline-functional weapons (the infamous Breda 30 LMG or the Brixia mortars). Grain loads for the guns could not be trusted (as the ammo factories had shitty checks), meaning that the already underpowered Carcano rifles had unrealiable performance. Sure, Italy had some great guns, like the MAB SMG, but this takes us to another of the basic problems of the Italian industry: it was underdeveloped. Let's take the MAB. It's a great SMG, sure, if we compare it to a PPs-43 or something. I am going from memory here, so the true data is probably different: a single MAB required more than forty hours of work done by a skilled artisan, while you could equip a squad with the same man-hours for PPs SMGs: Italian production was badly organized and tragically slow, meaning that even good designs could not be produced in numbers or replaced fast enough (case in point, the Royal Air Force). And often you had shitty designs that were kept into production for political or "Whatever we don't have anything else" reasons.

Tanks were developed by a single guy. I am not joking. All the Italian tanks were developed by a single man in a single office at the FIAT-ANSALDO, and whatever he made got okayed because reasons, fuck performance. Sum that with subpar tech and you had those beautiful riveted tankettes with the worst engines you can think of. Sure, Italian doctrine didn't focus on tanks much (it was commonly believed that the war would have been fought like in WW1, mountain front) but they were still crap.

Navy was borderline adequate (good training, some good units) but the command (SUPERMARINA) was scared of everything and lived under a costant psychological inferiority against the British. Think of..... I dunnow, Navy depression: "We can't win we can't even try if we try we're gonna lose" and thus they lost or did atrocious mistakes or suffered hilarious reversals like Taranto. The only bright spot for the Italian Navy were the frogmen, but that's a desperation weapon.

The Air force would require several paragraphs, so whatever. Let us say that it wasn't terrible, but it lacked staying power, Italian training wasn't adequate, and the Italian machines were often horribly under-armed. Go play War Thunder or something, and check how many machineguns the Italians get. Two at best, and with shitty fire rates and ammo loads. And the Italian air industry could not replace combat losses.

Do you know that Italy had an equivalent of the SS? The MVSN "Milizie Volontarie per la Sicurezza Nazionale", or commonly known as the "Camice Nere". Most of them had horrible equipment, terrible logistics, and were composed of old men that performed horribly under fire. There was a reason Hitler purged the SA as "unreliable", but Mussolini could not afford such things, so he got the shit-tier of political military units. Some of 'em weren't bad (youth units in particular) but pearls before swine.

And at last, the strategical problems. See, now we have a poor country with bad industry. What we are going to do, focus on a few theatres were we can leverage our limited strength?

No, we're Fascist Italy, we're going to send troops randomly around in Africa, in the Balkans and in Russia in a desperate attempt to ape the Germans to mantain internal support and international legitimacy. And thus you get from waging a parallel war (Greece and Africa) to be a subordinate of the Germans (Africa and the Balkans) to be a slave of the Germans (Russia, Italy, RSI). Because you sent your troops into situations they could only lose, and thus you start a negative spiral of self-crippling choices and political disasters. Italy in WW2 is the direct opposite of the concept of "concentration of forces": it was literally "dispersion of forces" at its best.

Now I'm fucking tired and I've sperged enough on the subject. If you have specific questions, go wild, if I can I'll reply. All typos and mistakes are mine.

This Dayallu seems a cultural man for certainly, i see others posts from he and it is goddamit.
 
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