Do we really need to hide Subjugation and Federations behind Tradition wall?

[makaramus]

I expecting at diplomacy expansion they adding a federation related trait at every tradition tree. and replacing diplomacy with someting like "trade".
ofcourse this is what I expect and I think it will be cool

 

[The Founder]

Well, you can't take all EU4 ideas because the math prevents it and also because there's a finite number of slots for idea groups, and it's less than the total number of ideas in the game.

And this should be how traditions in Stellaris work too, because honestly it's kinda shitty that you end up with everything at the end.

That would require whole new sets of mechanics for the Traditions to affect.

As it is, the 8 Traditions are already easily covering all game mechanics.

 

[AlanC9]

The rest, though, not useless. Crime? Your default enforcers are getting the benefit of the tradition (and it would probably be a bigger factor if you had Megacorp and were dealing with criminal syndicates).Trade protection? There are threads talking about how difficult it is to keep your trade routes pirate free, and if you're devoting any resources to keeping lanes clear (such as having fleets patrol them), you're making use of it.

If crime is zero without the bonus, what's the benefit?

As for trade protection, I typically don't devote resources to trade protection since I find the starbase road strategy more practical. In some games I occasionally have a fleet plugging a gap, but that fleet's size and composition will be determined by my current defence strategy. Although in that case I will probably get a little energy back during wartime when the fleet's doing something useful. And of course, this goes away completely in the late game. But still, that's some degree of use.

Anyway, I make it three traditions which may be absolutely useless depending on playstyle, and then another tier which are so awful that their benefits aren't worth the time to click on the interface. I don't personally distinguish between those two flavours of suck, but YMMV.

 

[Masoz]

The only good thing about federations at this point is the free fleet with no upkeep (assuming you are federation president). Which is pretty meh, imo. Defensive pacts can accomplish everything else that federations can without losing your autonomy to the whims of the AI's voting. I'm guessing federations are only tied to the diplomacy tree to give it some kind of unique flavor until diplomacy gets reworked.

It should be noted that you don't even need to take diplomacy perks to join a federation: Only too make one. Indeed, the creator kind of gets the short end of the stick for having to dip into a pretty crappy tree.

 

[kviiri]

A) the federation mechanics are terrible - despite being a diplomacy feature they take diplomacy options away from the player and don't give much back in return - so two traditions are wasted if you take the diplomacy tree

Replying just to echo the above, which is a better summary than I could've come up with. That describes perfectly the core flaw of Federations.

 

[Tim_Ward]

That would require whole new sets of mechanics for the Traditions to affect.

As it is, the 8 Traditions are already easily covering all game mechanics.

Well... they are going to add new sets of mechanics to the game. That's the Paradox model.

And when they do this, they're going to find it harder and harder to find room for those new mechanics in their existing 7 traditions.

So... good?

For the record, here's how they could play out after the diplo/espionage expansion;

Expansion
Security (renamed domination tree)
Prosperity
Harmony
Supremacy
Diplomacy
Discovery

Trade (trade functions moved from the diplomacy tree, replaced with traditions that are actually to do with diplomacy)
Intrigue (espionage focused)
Domination (has similar traditions to old-style domination, i.e. focused on being able to make better use of vassals and tributaries)
Conquest (ground combat focused)
Philosophy (focused on controlling factions and population ethics, getting bonuses from pops with ruling ethics, good for tall runs)

So that's 12 right there. I'm sure there's a couple more there somewhere, which would be 14.

Having more than seven would get rid of this thing they have to do right now where every tree has to be useful for everyone, because everyone has to take every tree if they want 7 ascension perks.