Do we have any legit 'Form Yuan' strategies?
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So serious question (not specifically to do with forming Yuan), as a Horde how is everyone beating Ming in the first place?
Early on Ming is big and usually ahead of you in tech, and absolutely nothing destabilises them, so they usually complete all their reforms and then go up to 100 Mandate by 1600. Later on they are absolutely massive, its currently 1650 and their army is over 5 times larger than mine (I'm Mongolia and control Korea and most of the north up to Russia in the west, nearly 1k dev).
There are a few points where you can get ahead of them in mil tech, but because you border them they then get the institutions off you and then get ahead of you. I made one attempt in my current run to hurt them, but found that even being 2 levels ahead on tech I couldn't touch them (even with Steppe bonuses) because their army was so much bigger (one ally failing to join didn't help, but I doubt would have mattered). Late game it seems impossible to get anyone meaningful to ally with you in order to hurt Ming, mostly because no one seems to dislike them or rival them (I guess because they are huge and miles away from any other major power).
Early on Ming is big and usually ahead of you in tech, and absolutely nothing destabilises them, so they usually complete all their reforms and then go up to 100 Mandate by 1600. Later on they are absolutely massive, its currently 1650 and their army is over 5 times larger than mine (I'm Mongolia and control Korea and most of the north up to Russia in the west, nearly 1k dev).
There are a few points where you can get ahead of them in mil tech, but because you border them they then get the institutions off you and then get ahead of you. I made one attempt in my current run to hurt them, but found that even being 2 levels ahead on tech I couldn't touch them (even with Steppe bonuses) because their army was so much bigger (one ally failing to join didn't help, but I doubt would have mattered). Late game it seems impossible to get anyone meaningful to ally with you in order to hurt Ming, mostly because no one seems to dislike them or rival them (I guess because they are huge and miles away from any other major power).
You shouldn't let it get to 1600 before you start taking them down. If you build up your cavalry, prepare yourself, get 300 development, and break tributary. Then you wait. When eight years pass(or less if a war starts and you can keep them at 25 warscore long enough) they get Unguarded Frontier. Their mandate drops extremely fast and their troops take massive amounts of extra damage. 50k troops with Unguarded Frontier might as well be 5k. Your job as a horde is trying to take them down not to outtech them - That's downright impossible even IF you force spawn all the institutions via development. Your job is to run them down early game via their disaster and beat them up enough to where their Mandate will be nothing, then keep taking land until they no longer exist and then from Yuan/Qing and start getting tributaries.
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I beat Ming as Manchus in 1.20 and as Mongolia in 1.21, the strategy I used is quite similar even though I'd say it's probably a bit easier as Manchus with a stronger core territory and banners.
I'll try to give you a few tips. I'm experienced but I'm far from optimised strategies that others can master. This played on hard difficulty, and of course ironman.
I canceled tributary status in 1495. I did it a bit sooner as Manchus and could benefit from MIL tech 7 over Ming, but this time tech was on par. I unified the Mongolian and Manchurian regions, so that dev was over 300 (close to 400 I think). Chagatai is also a March of mine, and they could bring 10k which is useful when attached to my armies. I had two 17k armies, with 12 cavalry each.
About the economy, two things very useful:
- I moved my capital to the gold mine in Buryatia, and developped there a lot to get the Renaissance institution (I got Feudalism just from conquering Manchuria). With a 18 prod gold mine, money comes a bit easier. Moving capital is for the 0% autonomy as well as the reduced dev cost (and I used the edict as well).
- I used "debase currency" a lot. With a minimal number of states (4 for a long time), my average autonomy was over 60%. This means that I actually made money using debasing. Sure, this increased my tech costs at times, but razing provided me with enough points.
Shortly after canceling tributary status, Ming attacked me. Thankfully, I had alliances with regional powers: Jaunpur and Mong Yang. They'll help you distract Ming while my armies concentrated in two things: protect the home country and try to push aroung Beijing. Ming's capital area is great for looting (keeping you afloat), and you still get the horde bonus in plains. I only fought on flat lands, and concentrated my two armies (aroung 40k, vassals included) to fight Ming's smaller 25k stacks one at a time. At the start of this war, the numbers were even but Ming will out-manpower and out-merc you. Thus, picking winning battles is essential.
The goal of this first war isn't really to beat Ming completely, but instead to get them under this disaster. Warscore was at 30%, and over 25%, the disaster comes faster. This brings them a nasty -15% morale. I got this some 4 years after Ming declaration.
The warscore comes mainly from battles. As the tributary CB Ming used has a "show superiority" wargoal, this is quite beneficial as ticking warscore will help you get over the +25% mark. Battles and Beijing occupied will do the rest.
Finally after 5 years, this is when I cannot fight anymore, with half my army depleted, no manpower and a suffering economy. But no matter, I have the warscore to sign a delicious peace. I take my cores, Beijing and the Manchurian culture provinces (Manchurian and Buryats are both accepted). Also of course war reparations and as much money as I could, to keep me going.
This is a beaten Ming. Afterwards, they tanked their Mandate to 0 which made the next wars that much easier. I recommend 3-4 wars with the Mandate of Heaven CB before actually claiming the title of Emperor of China. There is actually no rush and Ming will remain under the nasty disaster until you decide otherwise.
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Very similar to my run, I developed the gold mine as well but I forgot about moving my capital (this is the first time I have seen autonomy be a huge issue). I think I was slightly later than you when I tried to take on Ming, but with control over Korea. I was either tech 9 or tech 12 and they were a good 2 techs behind me with their mandate under 50 already and I got absolutely crushed.
Getting the alliances seems like it would be a huge help. I don't think I could even see Mong Yang so they weren't an option, and I couldn't get anyone decent from northern India to ally me. That just leaves Korea (who hate you), the other northern Tribes to your west (who are you main expansion path early) and Japan (who usually hate you, and would like be like allying England).
I tried to break free late in my current run, having conquered through Bengal and having well over 1k development. I also built up forts around the entire Chinese border to stop them running all over the place. The first war went well and I was able to win all my battles, but even with 30 warscore I couldn't take any provinces because there was no way I could siege anything down without them grouping their stacks and killing me. I also got attacked by Russia and a huge Bahmanis at the same time, and was somehow losing that war even though the Ottomans intervened (not allied, because even though we almost border each other in Persia and I have a huge army with up to date tech and they rival Ming they still have insane negative modifiers). So I was happy just triggering the undefended border disaster and peacing out for money. As soon as the truce expires Ming declares war again, and despite Mandate now around the 40 mark and the Northern Border disaster they group their stacks better this time I again get crushed. Should also mention that Ming allied Russia just before the truce expired, so I had no idea how I would be able to declare on them and win in the first place.
I think my main issue is that it is incredibly hard to judge how close the army strengths are in this scenario due to the modifiers you are working with. To me it seems like the only one that actually makes a difference is the shock bonus for open terrain, as I definitely don't do well without it (even defending in mountains is questionable). Having now triggered the border disaster that doesn't seem to hurt them that much, nor does the low Mandate (at least in combat). I had a similar issue in my last 1.20 game as Japan, where Ming sat at 0 Mandate for much of the game but was still stable and more than a match for me in combat.
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Yes indeed, I only fought with the Horde shock bonus on plains, mainly my own lands and Beijing, that I was sieging. I left 1k there when I had to move my stack to fight a battle, so that I kept progress on the siege. I didn't fight in mountains, even defensively. The malus you get to shock is much too nasty, I feel.
I think you have to stay on the offensive, as soon as a stack is moving towards you and is easily reachable, go get it. For me, this was often when a Ming stack would move to Chengde or Chahar provinces that I sent my armies. Then with my mainly cav army, I could defeat the first stack before the reinforcements would arrive, and sometimes I could defeat the reinforcements as well.
I think you have to stay on the offensive, as soon as a stack is moving towards you and is easily reachable, go get it. For me, this was often when a Ming stack would move to Chengde or Chahar provinces that I sent my armies. Then with my mainly cav army, I could defeat the first stack before the reinforcements would arrive, and sometimes I could defeat the reinforcements as well.
So had another couple of goes at it, doing better but it is still incredibly frustrating to try and destablise Ming (all the other fun things like AI appearing to ignore ZoC and sieges breaking at 0% against me don't help). I've had some luck in the initial wars, my last attempt I allied Korea (who didn't then rival me after I killed off all the Manchu tribes), and with them as an ally I was able to break free from Ming and trigger the disaster. This tanked their Mandate down to 0, but once again this made no difference. They still have 10+ tributaries and no one of consequence is interested in allying to deal with them. They still comfortably field the largest army in the world and I think I pushed them up to something like 40 mercs in my last war. The main issue is that after the initial war (where Ming declared on me so I get the defensive CtA), no one will accept a call to arms if I declare on Ming and even with all their negative modifiers (and me having tech 9 over them for most of the war) they eventually break me through weight of numbers. I can never siege down Beijing because that causes them to group up their stacks and I can't take on 80k+ at once. This means I need to intercept their smaller stacks across a wide front, but even with forts I eventually fail to get to one of them before it falls, and then they start roaming all over the place and occupying everything.
The other part of the problem is that Horde unity means you are on a timer and can't really sit and wait for Ming to declare on you a second time. With Korea as an ally I can't go east, and the remains of the Oirat are allied to Nogai (who is also my ally) in the direct west. Everyone else is a tributary of Ming, so I have no expansion paths aka ways to keep my unity up.
Probably going to start another run, figure I need to push further west before I break free and then basically push to 100% them in the first war somehow.
The other part of the problem is that Horde unity means you are on a timer and can't really sit and wait for Ming to declare on you a second time. With Korea as an ally I can't go east, and the remains of the Oirat are allied to Nogai (who is also my ally) in the direct west. Everyone else is a tributary of Ming, so I have no expansion paths aka ways to keep my unity up.
Probably going to start another run, figure I need to push further west before I break free and then basically push to 100% them in the first war somehow.
With 0 mandate, their army should be literally of paper. You should be able to take them on their own, even at 3:1 odds. Once again, get your stacks together and fight Ming stacks separately. You should not care if Ming occupies some provinces of yours. The more they spread out, the more you can focus your efforts.
Also, I think expanding West before breaking free is a given. You should get most of the Altaïc culture group.
In my own game, I must admit that I'm facing some issues.
I have a small hope that the religious war will trigger in Europe, with Russia and Ottomans already on opposing sides. This would be a golden opportunity to crush Russia for a long time.
I also need to take my 4th idea group. I currently have Humanism/Influence/Administrative. I'm thinking either Offensive or Quantity, as a MIL idea would be nice, or Espionnage, to go all in on the corruption build (and also - liberty desire on subjects, as I have many). Any advice on this?
Also, I think expanding West before breaking free is a given. You should get most of the Altaïc culture group.
In my own game, I must admit that I'm facing some issues.
- Russia rivaled me and they've united the entire Rus lands. In itself, this isn't so much an issue, but they've allied Ming, which is also a rival. I was able to break this alliance by no-CB a Ming tributary without co-belligerant status. But I'm now on the clock to finish Ming (still half to conquer) before they ally Russia again.
- Ottomans are a monster in my game, with Balkans, Levant, Egypt and Arabia. They're not a rival, but they have a nasty -200 relation because they want all provinces from the Timurids, my march. I wasn't able to ally them when I didn't have this relation penalty (hard difficulty for the win), even with the rival bonus I have with them (due to them rivaling Russia) and now I think as soon as they have a free rival slot, I'm going to be that one. As of now, I'm not able to beat them.
- I've been allied to a big Jaunpur for a long time now, and I'm not prepared to cancel it, due to fear of a Russia/Ottomans gang-bang. This means that India is basically locked, as the other country there, Bahamis, controls 2/3 of it (Jaunpur being the rest + some OPMs already my tributaries).
I have a small hope that the religious war will trigger in Europe, with Russia and Ottomans already on opposing sides. This would be a golden opportunity to crush Russia for a long time.
I also need to take my 4th idea group. I currently have Humanism/Influence/Administrative. I'm thinking either Offensive or Quantity, as a MIL idea would be nice, or Espionnage, to go all in on the corruption build (and also - liberty desire on subjects, as I have many). Any advice on this?
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In my experience Ming being at 0 mandate is comparable to a tactics advantage (at best). On flat terrain I can beat them 2:1. More than that and the weight of numbers breaks me, and outside of flat terrain it's pretty messy (which is why it is really annoying if they get into the Northern Manchu lands or the far north with mountains and woods). This is with 2:1 ratio of cav to infantry.
I would pretty much always take Expansion as one of my first two idea groups. You can get to America and save having to develop to get Colonialism, take Mexico for the gold, cut off Russia's expansion in SIberia and get a bunch of decent provinces like Manilla. It's not something you need to rush, but it seems more useful than Influence or Diplomatic given your isolation. Also while I haven't got there yet, I would assume that once you punch Ming hard enough reforming to get rid of the Horde government would be top priority.
Just saying that if you raze enough, outteching them is pretty easy. As Uzbek, I reached MilTech 10 ahead of time, while they were still tech 8. Winning against them is really easy once they get their disaster going. Less morale, more damage received, your units are better, they're AI. This is now far from a very hard challenge, as it used to be before 1.20.
I've beaten Ming as Mongolia in 1640, though let me just tell you, the longer you wait, the worse it gets, and now that I know better I should definitely not have waited this long. In this war I had only Lithuania (too far away) and Ayutthaya (too far behind on tech) as allies, as Malwa and Bengal refused my defensive call to arms. Russia also declared on me 3 months in, but managed to peace him out with Lithuanian land.
I'm a bit suprised by Expansion (or did you mean Exploration?) as a choice. Really America isn't going to bring you enough money in the early game to make a difference. On the other hand, I used vassals as well as direct coring to expand really quickly in the beginning. For example, I had Yeren as a vassal with 90% of the Manchu culture lands while I conquered all Altaïc lands directly. Other potential vassals are Chagatai, Kazakhstan, Afghanistan/Persia. Influence will help you greatly annexing those faster or keeping them in line if you're not annexing them immediatly (Persia is a great march to have for example).
After influence, I picked Humanism, which is great to completely negate revolts in your lands (I went yellow shamanism). Also a couple more accepted culture will allow you to accept Chinese ones in the long term (to avoid the cultural disaster once you get Emperor of China) as well as Manchus and Buryats. I'll be keeping those accepted all game long.
Then, I found that Administrative is a great choice. You should rush the first two ideas for reduced coring costs. Then, you slowly advance in the group, and I found that the Mercs ideas are really useful because I need to use Mercs to fight so many wars: China, India, Persia, Russia. Also, Age of Reformation doesn't have a lot of useful splendor bonuses, but the +5% discipline for mercs is a good one.
Finally, I'm not convinced you should rush to get rid of the Horde government. I still have it in 1600 and it helped me winning a 1v1 war against Russia, who had more troops and MP than me. But with the Horde CB, horde bonus and carefully picking battles in the steppes around Astraskhan, I was able to get a good peace deal: cutting them off Siberia, the gold mine in Bashkiria and a first foray in the Crimea region for the Great Khan achievement.
Next war against Ming is going to be the "5th war of Mandate of Heaven" and this time, I'll take the title of Emperor of China and form Yuan. No need to reform the government with the Yuan decision now.
Don't drop horde government early, it is the best government type for single player before 1600. Free (incredibly good) CB on every neighbour, free points that will also give you cheaper coring cost, tributaries as any religion etc.
And I did it with basic Manchu strategy because they are pretty much in the same situation. Eat the land North of Ming and Korea, develop gold mine, go ahead of time in mil on important tech (5, 6, 7 or 9) with good general and declare. Take 100% burn it down and truce break Ming. Nobody cares about truce breaking as he is the only one in his culture group and only one of his religion.
If you need money, eat India. Early. They get 0 AE on you because they can not see your capital
And I did it with basic Manchu strategy because they are pretty much in the same situation. Eat the land North of Ming and Korea, develop gold mine, go ahead of time in mil on important tech (5, 6, 7 or 9) with good general and declare. Take 100% burn it down and truce break Ming. Nobody cares about truce breaking as he is the only one in his culture group and only one of his religion.
If you need money, eat India. Early. They get 0 AE on you because they can not see your capital
For Manchu it is significantly easier. I was very impatient and declared on Ming in 1453. At tech 4 v 4 with no disaster I still won albeit with 5 loans and 2-3 debase.
With classic Jianzhou, no yeren/korchin alliance:
Take unite jurchen mission, rival some guys, improve relations with oirat. Declare on Haixi in January after becoming trib. You start with more troops and if you raise host you have full cav raised and they have understrength banner. You should wipe with good rolls, if not, chase while putting 3 on siege. Assemble troops and declare on Yeren. You have more guys, either you wipe them or they retreat across strait so you can park nonsiegers on other side and force crossing penalty if they attack into you.
Once Haixi is full annexed, core girin don't raze anything. Peace out yeren when Turin cores. Should leave you at exactly 100 OE, don't raze. Core hinggan only. While it cores declare on korchin and buryatia. Full annex buryatia while taking some stuff from korchin. Raze everything but the gold mine.
Form Manchu (year should be 1450 at worst), declare on Korea. They mothball mountain fort, rest is simple. Take ducats and then land. Raze but make sure dev remains above 300.
Ally Oirat, declare on Ming promising land. Cb is up to you as tconquest is easier to get wargoal but I suggest mandate since you're in it to win it. You have tech 4 advantage but only for a few months or year and you have perfect prestige and mission morale bonus (better player than me would get a better tech 4 window.
You should have 25 regiments by this time with most or all your cav banners. Advisor is either +1 disc, morale, or reinforce speed. Morale > disc > reinf but I did this with reinf advisor.
Siege shenyang. Rest of army is situational. Ming will focus oirat and eventually force them out, so our goal is to secure picks on smaller Ming stacks. Ming starts fielding 50 mercs and 10 cav. Once they start running out of gas it goes down to 30 mercs and no cav.
Basically never take a close battle, Ming will split and you have a 20 morale edge to slay small stacks. Eventually Oirat will fall and Ming get tech 4. This is where the real test begins.
Play defensive and let them split in your land, go for picks once again while pressuring shenyang and beijing. Eventually Ming runs out of gas, but you are loaning so you can sustain 25-27 units to match their 30.
Mings disaster will fire around now. Take beijing, carpet them. I made an 80 score deal.
As with all hordes your opening unit control determines a lot. So practice your openings! You cannot afford to throw away units for free especially since hordes pay to reinforce.
Ill link a stream VOD later if it will help
With classic Jianzhou, no yeren/korchin alliance:
Take unite jurchen mission, rival some guys, improve relations with oirat. Declare on Haixi in January after becoming trib. You start with more troops and if you raise host you have full cav raised and they have understrength banner. You should wipe with good rolls, if not, chase while putting 3 on siege. Assemble troops and declare on Yeren. You have more guys, either you wipe them or they retreat across strait so you can park nonsiegers on other side and force crossing penalty if they attack into you.
Once Haixi is full annexed, core girin don't raze anything. Peace out yeren when Turin cores. Should leave you at exactly 100 OE, don't raze. Core hinggan only. While it cores declare on korchin and buryatia. Full annex buryatia while taking some stuff from korchin. Raze everything but the gold mine.
Form Manchu (year should be 1450 at worst), declare on Korea. They mothball mountain fort, rest is simple. Take ducats and then land. Raze but make sure dev remains above 300.
Ally Oirat, declare on Ming promising land. Cb is up to you as tconquest is easier to get wargoal but I suggest mandate since you're in it to win it. You have tech 4 advantage but only for a few months or year and you have perfect prestige and mission morale bonus (better player than me would get a better tech 4 window.
You should have 25 regiments by this time with most or all your cav banners. Advisor is either +1 disc, morale, or reinforce speed. Morale > disc > reinf but I did this with reinf advisor.
Siege shenyang. Rest of army is situational. Ming will focus oirat and eventually force them out, so our goal is to secure picks on smaller Ming stacks. Ming starts fielding 50 mercs and 10 cav. Once they start running out of gas it goes down to 30 mercs and no cav.
Basically never take a close battle, Ming will split and you have a 20 morale edge to slay small stacks. Eventually Oirat will fall and Ming get tech 4. This is where the real test begins.
Play defensive and let them split in your land, go for picks once again while pressuring shenyang and beijing. Eventually Ming runs out of gas, but you are loaning so you can sustain 25-27 units to match their 30.
Mings disaster will fire around now. Take beijing, carpet them. I made an 80 score deal.
As with all hordes your opening unit control determines a lot. So practice your openings! You cannot afford to throw away units for free especially since hordes pay to reinforce.
Ill link a stream VOD later if it will help
On equal tech with 40 infantry in front and 40 artillery in back, Ming with 0 mandate was able to beat me with similar generals. I had offensive (also naval due to turtles all the way down), they had defensive. Despite allegedly taking 50% more damage they won the fight straight up.
I responded to this by slapping another 160 troops into the region, beating them down before they could recover. However 0 mandate isn't quite as paper-shred inducing as implied. The tactics penalty they used to have from running wrong faction was more crippling than current mandate lost penalty.
Hordes benefit from also sapping their morale due to the disaster, which helps a lot.
I finally formed Yuan. I took my sweet time but I wanted to make sure I beat Russia enough so that I could do this snake thing with Astraskhan. I was affraid I would lose too much Mandate by having both Rump-Ming and Russia as non-tributary neighbours.
Chagatai, Timurids and Afghanistan are also my marches, and Korea, Kham and a few small countries are my tributaries. My mandate gain is flat.
Jaunpur is my ally but they've lost their usefulness. They're on the choping block.
I'll have to deal with Bahamis at some point, and Ottomans are likely to be my end-game boss. Still a lot to do, and it's been a lot of fun.
Chagatai, Timurids and Afghanistan are also my marches, and Korea, Kham and a few small countries are my tributaries. My mandate gain is flat.
Jaunpur is my ally but they've lost their usefulness. They're on the choping block.
I'll have to deal with Bahamis at some point, and Ottomans are likely to be my end-game boss. Still a lot to do, and it's been a lot of fun.
I'm currently in a Timurids->Manchu->raze everything til you're full on Monarch points for 30 years ->Become EoC (thus reforming government, and losing horde forever)->Shan/russia, depends on how far I'm into the rus ->Yuan ->Mughals once there's only india left.
Somewhere along the way, I'll go catholic, hopefully after I've become EoC, otherwise it's such a pain
Although imho being a BIG ass horde >> EoC. You can get all those tributaries, and can raze.
It's possible than razing >> 20% RCC, but I'm not sure on this tradeoff. Esp since you can get to 60-65% without it
Somewhere along the way, I'll go catholic, hopefully after I've become EoC, otherwise it's such a pain
Although imho being a BIG ass horde >> EoC. You can get all those tributaries, and can raze.
It's possible than razing >> 20% RCC, but I'm not sure on this tradeoff. Esp since you can get to 60-65% without it
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Being a big ass Horde is great, that's why I stayed one for such a long time. But after 1600, even with razing, I felt I was fighting less and less on plains, and even there the shock bonus wasn't carrying so much wieght anymore. Also, cannons and the patented "fire phase comes first" started to put my armies under pressure. Thus, I felt I needed to take EoC. Now, I'm breaking truces to conquer Ming in a real fast pace.
To keep things interesting, I converted to Varjayana because what is more fun than a permanent -1 dip rep modifier, really?
To keep things interesting, I converted to Varjayana because what is more fun than a permanent -1 dip rep modifier, really?
I came up with a strategy that I call "the Holy Coptic Roman Tagswitch Emperor of China"
It involves several tagswitches(Timurids->Manchu->Become HRE (as a horde)->EoC->Intermediate tag, such as russia or persia(keep Manchu ideas!)->Yuan->Mughals(keep yuan ideas!) , pretty cheesy play, and well, a whole lot of things I learned with 1.14 world conquest that despite what people think, still hold true to this day.
The only thing that was a different in 1.14 is that thanks to the "infinite" manpower, you could punch a little bit above your weight. Not by a ton, as people think, since you could only surpass your forcelimit enough to keep your income positive or around -1. Alas, 1.21 brings us a massive change: Manchu is now formable by anyone.
Therefore, and assuming that HORDES are a prime candidate for world conquest (while they do NOT have the strongest start, no one, not even ming, can match their power point generation by 1470), the strategy is as follows:
1. Timurids are the horde with the largest development, force limit, and target choice. They're also the horde closest to hinduism (coptic is better than hinduism, but Qara Qoyunlu is simply terrible)
2. Your first target is to stack coring cost reduction. So you need to ADM as your first idea group, and switch to a tag that has RCC (out of golden horde and Manchu, Manchu is faster to form). Slapping hinduism on top of that is nice.
3. On to actual game: taking a good look at the map, you're surrounded by a lot, a whole lot, of easy targets for conquest. Your initial targets are:
1. Find 2 easily acquired trading centers for the age target (I always go for hormuz and Yarkand's)
2. Stop the ottoman expansion through DIPLOMACY improving relations+alliance with each of the anatolian minors will allow you to make them your tributaries by 1447, and guaranteeing byzantium means the ottomans can only expand westward, and once they've eaten Bosnia, Serbia and Wallachia, they hit a wall.
3. Rush to adm ideas through either NOT coring what you raze (vassal/tributary feed) or coring things that pay for themselves (2/2/2 provinces being a prime example)
Those are the initial considerations before you make a move, now, the first 3 years are about striking a balance of being at peace, making tributaries peacefully (NW India, Arabia, Caucasus) and once that is over with, conquering your easiest targets: Baluchistan (raze+tributary, then give provinces back, your first and foremost target as of this moment is to get points, not development), Kashmir (hinduist rebels, here we come!) Hormuz (puh- lease), Oman (once Hormuz's conquered) and Yarkand. Yes, yarkand ain't easy, and that mountain fort is HELL, but it is the wall between you and Manchu ideas (nothing stands between me and RCC!)
After conquering Yarkand and Oman, keep expanding north-east and south west: Oirats and Yemen; then Korchin and Adal, then Somalia and Manchuria. It should be the early 1450's and you should be close to adm tech 5.
Keep expanding south along the african coast as long as wars are easy, if they do get tougher you can disregard this path (Ethiopia can be a real pain, and they sometimes ally their muslim cousins, gross!) and get ready to fight your first "big" war against Qara Qoyunlu. In order to be succesful in this war, you should be familiar with the "0-garrison fort strategy" that I use quite often to win wars in less than a year. Once Qara Qoyunlu is defeated, its provinces razed and fed to Ardalan (might as well make some use out of it), you might want to expand into Mamluks, so once again, position your troops (having shammar tributary+ provinces in Iraq means you get 5/8 forts the first month). These wars can be simultaneous with wars in SE africa as long as the fighting isn't too intense over there, and you can also raze+tributary the Tatar hordes just for the hell of it. Something I like doing is: conquer a horde (like nogai, for instance), raze, and return all their provinces except for one, one that hopefully borders the NEXT horde (Great Horde for instance); from the Great horde you can attack Crimea and Kazan, and there, all the other hordes are now razed and you got plenty of Monarch points (and more to come thanks to their tributary status)
To be edited and expanded upon, but eventually, your goal is to border Austria, convert to catholic, once you're catholic, make HRE members into tributaries, and at some point become HRE and sweep through reforms because you can. Adding your capital to the HRE might help, you do lose 30% of Manpower/Force limit, but get close to the important reform. Nope, not the 7th, the 6th! The 6th reform allows you to switch religions freely while mantaining HRE status.
Also, to reply to previous post, yes, past 1600 being a horde is a bit of a nuisance, but switching out of Horde with less than 75% coring cost is just slowing down for the sake of it. I do intend to finish this WC by 1600 sharp though =)
A key thing to remember throughout a speed WC is that your main enemy is overextension, so always fight easy wars to fill your OE, then fight the hard wars while you wait those cores to finish
It involves several tagswitches(Timurids->Manchu->Become HRE (as a horde)->EoC->Intermediate tag, such as russia or persia(keep Manchu ideas!)->Yuan->Mughals(keep yuan ideas!) , pretty cheesy play, and well, a whole lot of things I learned with 1.14 world conquest that despite what people think, still hold true to this day.
The only thing that was a different in 1.14 is that thanks to the "infinite" manpower, you could punch a little bit above your weight. Not by a ton, as people think, since you could only surpass your forcelimit enough to keep your income positive or around -1. Alas, 1.21 brings us a massive change: Manchu is now formable by anyone.
Therefore, and assuming that HORDES are a prime candidate for world conquest (while they do NOT have the strongest start, no one, not even ming, can match their power point generation by 1470), the strategy is as follows:
1. Timurids are the horde with the largest development, force limit, and target choice. They're also the horde closest to hinduism (coptic is better than hinduism, but Qara Qoyunlu is simply terrible)
2. Your first target is to stack coring cost reduction. So you need to ADM as your first idea group, and switch to a tag that has RCC (out of golden horde and Manchu, Manchu is faster to form). Slapping hinduism on top of that is nice.
3. On to actual game: taking a good look at the map, you're surrounded by a lot, a whole lot, of easy targets for conquest. Your initial targets are:
1. Find 2 easily acquired trading centers for the age target (I always go for hormuz and Yarkand's)
2. Stop the ottoman expansion through DIPLOMACY improving relations+alliance with each of the anatolian minors will allow you to make them your tributaries by 1447, and guaranteeing byzantium means the ottomans can only expand westward, and once they've eaten Bosnia, Serbia and Wallachia, they hit a wall.
3. Rush to adm ideas through either NOT coring what you raze (vassal/tributary feed) or coring things that pay for themselves (2/2/2 provinces being a prime example)
Those are the initial considerations before you make a move, now, the first 3 years are about striking a balance of being at peace, making tributaries peacefully (NW India, Arabia, Caucasus) and once that is over with, conquering your easiest targets: Baluchistan (raze+tributary, then give provinces back, your first and foremost target as of this moment is to get points, not development), Kashmir (hinduist rebels, here we come!) Hormuz (puh- lease), Oman (once Hormuz's conquered) and Yarkand. Yes, yarkand ain't easy, and that mountain fort is HELL, but it is the wall between you and Manchu ideas (nothing stands between me and RCC!)
After conquering Yarkand and Oman, keep expanding north-east and south west: Oirats and Yemen; then Korchin and Adal, then Somalia and Manchuria. It should be the early 1450's and you should be close to adm tech 5.
Keep expanding south along the african coast as long as wars are easy, if they do get tougher you can disregard this path (Ethiopia can be a real pain, and they sometimes ally their muslim cousins, gross!) and get ready to fight your first "big" war against Qara Qoyunlu. In order to be succesful in this war, you should be familiar with the "0-garrison fort strategy" that I use quite often to win wars in less than a year. Once Qara Qoyunlu is defeated, its provinces razed and fed to Ardalan (might as well make some use out of it), you might want to expand into Mamluks, so once again, position your troops (having shammar tributary+ provinces in Iraq means you get 5/8 forts the first month). These wars can be simultaneous with wars in SE africa as long as the fighting isn't too intense over there, and you can also raze+tributary the Tatar hordes just for the hell of it. Something I like doing is: conquer a horde (like nogai, for instance), raze, and return all their provinces except for one, one that hopefully borders the NEXT horde (Great Horde for instance); from the Great horde you can attack Crimea and Kazan, and there, all the other hordes are now razed and you got plenty of Monarch points (and more to come thanks to their tributary status)
To be edited and expanded upon, but eventually, your goal is to border Austria, convert to catholic, once you're catholic, make HRE members into tributaries, and at some point become HRE and sweep through reforms because you can. Adding your capital to the HRE might help, you do lose 30% of Manpower/Force limit, but get close to the important reform. Nope, not the 7th, the 6th! The 6th reform allows you to switch religions freely while mantaining HRE status.
Also, to reply to previous post, yes, past 1600 being a horde is a bit of a nuisance, but switching out of Horde with less than 75% coring cost is just slowing down for the sake of it. I do intend to finish this WC by 1600 sharp though =)
A key thing to remember throughout a speed WC is that your main enemy is overextension, so always fight easy wars to fill your OE, then fight the hard wars while you wait those cores to finish
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It's actually just easier to get Ming to support your independence as Mongolia.