Development of the non-tributary countries that border you. Even the vassal of one of your tributaries penalizes you (Mongolia or Yarkand for example). You can realese some countries so you don't border the Ottomans.
Do we have any legit 'Form Yuan' strategies?
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Development of the non-tributary countries that border you. Even the vassal of one of your tributaries penalizes you (Mongolia or Yarkand for example). You can realese some countries so you don't border the Ottomans.
The way it seems to work is that every tributary gives you 0.01, and every bordering non-tributary gives you a negative amount that scales with development. For your ally Ottomans, you probably can make a vassal blocking him from you. Otherwise, yes, tributary everyone.
Thanks. The vassal along borders seems a bit gamey and not really satisfying from a map-painting point of view, but probably the only way to go.
If I could make any suggestions to the devs, I would limit the tributaries to Asia. I know that limits tributaries for the western hordes, but the current system seems to be exponential - you conquer something but have to conquer even more to offset the maluses you get from the new borders. Forming Yuan should be a reward, now it seems to be a punishment.
Well I did it. But I reverted the save and am now eyeing the 200 grain province achievement
That's a general problem with taking the Mandate rather than a Yuan issue but agreed. I'll probably hold on seriously attempting a Yuan game until they make the Mandate system a bit more player friendly - it's not exactly broken per se, it's just really not fun to engage with.
I've read through this thread and as time goes, it seems that's really the trade off. Yuan is AMAZING in terms of ideas and, if you completely conquer Ming, resources. But with Manchu back to having Feudalism and with how condensed their conquests only have to be before they can begin their wars, it seems much quicker and more fruitful to go for Jianzhou/Haixi/Yeren -> Qing
Ok I used the gamey workaround and moved my capital to Kyoto. If your capital is on an island, you don't get the maluses. It's stupid, but it allows you to form Yuan and not lose in Mandate. It's nothing you want to do from a role play perspective but the game forces you to do it.
Another interesting fact: If you take the Mandate as a Horde (I was Oirat) you change government, so you're no longer a horde. But the game still thinks the "I'll graze my horse here" achievements is valid, same after forming Yuan. So I took the 200 provinces (which is a LOT) and the achievement changed to color - but didn't FIRE. So it seems you cannot get it that way.
Another thing: Don't be as stupid as me and move your capital before forming Yuan because it's a) expensive and b) it will be moved to Beijing anyway so you have to move from there back to Kyoto (which is cheaper as a razed Beijing has lower dev than Kyoto).
Fun campaign. But I'm seriously dreading a campaign for the achievement. Staying a horde until you got the 200 grain provinces seems to be hard!
Another interesting fact: If you take the Mandate as a Horde (I was Oirat) you change government, so you're no longer a horde. But the game still thinks the "I'll graze my horse here" achievements is valid, same after forming Yuan. So I took the 200 provinces (which is a LOT) and the achievement changed to color - but didn't FIRE. So it seems you cannot get it that way.
Another thing: Don't be as stupid as me and move your capital before forming Yuan because it's a) expensive and b) it will be moved to Beijing anyway so you have to move from there back to Kyoto (which is cheaper as a razed Beijing has lower dev than Kyoto).
Fun campaign. But I'm seriously dreading a campaign for the achievement. Staying a horde until you got the 200 grain provinces seems to be hard!
I managed to form Yuan finally (having gone GH->Golden Horde->Mughals->Russia->Yuan), and I'm not entirely sure that I'm better off having replaced my Mughal ideas with Yuan's ideas. Maybe its just because I went humanist instead of religious, but I'm finding myself having significantly more rebel problems, where the Mughals with their +35% RU & +3 tolerance idea essentially removed all difficulty with religion.
I guess Yuan's ideas are better than the Mughals in every other way, but its a bit tough not having any tolerance of heathens in the idea set. D:
I checked the requirements and I realised Uzbek was part of the Altaic group and not the Tatar one as I thought. This makes them able to form both Mughals and Yuan without any cultureshift. So we have the strongest horde, who is Sunni so has free expansion without needing conversion, that can get perma claims on India before going for Yuan. Honestly this seems really easy.
I just started a run, it's before 1480 and the Ming disaster already happened, I'm allied with the Ottomans and I'm well on my way to have all the provinces needed to form Mughals. I'll wait that Ming explodes or that I win a war against them first, because forming Mughals will end the disaster.
Besides the lack of feudalism early on - which you make up for by razing and with your very decent starting ruler - this really seems the easiest way to go. There is a goldmine in Kazan and another one in Yarkand to boost your economy. I got the wartaxes splendor ability, so I can run my economy and I have a pile of cash for the war vs Ming.
The real question is the balance between tolerance of heathens and admin efficiency. I might keep the Mughal set actually. If you collapse to Tengri to form Yuan, almost everyone is heathen.
Imereti is a vassal, Kazan, Great Horde and Yarkand are tributaries.
I just started a run, it's before 1480 and the Ming disaster already happened, I'm allied with the Ottomans and I'm well on my way to have all the provinces needed to form Mughals. I'll wait that Ming explodes or that I win a war against them first, because forming Mughals will end the disaster.
Besides the lack of feudalism early on - which you make up for by razing and with your very decent starting ruler - this really seems the easiest way to go. There is a goldmine in Kazan and another one in Yarkand to boost your economy. I got the wartaxes splendor ability, so I can run my economy and I have a pile of cash for the war vs Ming.
The real question is the balance between tolerance of heathens and admin efficiency. I might keep the Mughal set actually. If you collapse to Tengri to form Yuan, almost everyone is heathen.
Imereti is a vassal, Kazan, Great Horde and Yarkand are tributaries.
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Why can't they?
Is Wiki wrong again? I would be quite angry, the sole idea of that campaign was to do Mughals into Yuan as fast as possible.
- Yuan does not exist.
- One of the following must be true:
- Is not a subject nation.
- Is a Tributary State.
- The culture group is Altaic (has one of the following cultures as primary culture):
- Turkmeni, Uzbek, Kazakh, Kyrgyz, Uyghur, Oirat, Kalkha, Mongol, or Chahar.
- At Peace.
- Stability of at least 2.
- Owns core province: Kaifeng (688)
- Owns core province: Xilin Gol (723)
- Owns core province: Beijing (1816)
- Owns core province: Qaraqorum (2190)
- Owns core province: Xuanhua (2136)
- Owns core province: Xianyang (2171).
- All provinces of Mongol, Chahar, Kalkha, Oirat, and Uyghur culture must be ruled by (country_tag) or their vassals.
Is Wiki wrong again? I would be quite angry, the sole idea of that campaign was to do Mughals into Yuan as fast as possible.
Wiki is wrong, Mughals are explicitly blocked in the decision. I had to form Russia, and then form Yuan.
Wiki really starts bothering me. Can you do it the other way around? Even if glorious Yuan is nicer than glorious Mughal on the map...
Despite this inconvenience, I still think Uzbek is the easiest way. From all the nations that start with the proper culture, it's by far the most powerful, and it's also the further away from Ming so you have more time to build up and to become a 300 development horde before they annoy you with their request to become a tributary. And there is the possibility of an alliance with the Ottomans pretty easily if you set the right rivalries and give them a gift/get a diprep advisor.
The only issue is converting yourself to an eastern religion.
Because honestly fighting Ming as Uzbek isn't. Having 100 piety on top of every other bonus you have and malus they have makes it entirely free:
Despite this inconvenience, I still think Uzbek is the easiest way. From all the nations that start with the proper culture, it's by far the most powerful, and it's also the further away from Ming so you have more time to build up and to become a 300 development horde before they annoy you with their request to become a tributary. And there is the possibility of an alliance with the Ottomans pretty easily if you set the right rivalries and give them a gift/get a diprep advisor.
The only issue is converting yourself to an eastern religion.
Because honestly fighting Ming as Uzbek isn't. Having 100 piety on top of every other bonus you have and malus they have makes it entirely free:
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As long as you can meet the Mughal requirements you can go Yuan --> Mughals.Wiki really starts bothering me. Can you do it the other way around? Even if glorious Yuan is nicer than glorious Mughal on the map...
Despite this inconvenience, I still think Uzbek is the easiest way. From all the nations that start with the proper culture, it's by far the most powerful, and it's also the further away from Ming so you have more time to build up and to become a 300 development horde before they annoy you with their request to become a tributary. And there is the possibility of an alliance with the Ottomans pretty easily if you set the right rivalries and give them a gift/get a diprep advisor.
The only issue is converting yourself to an eastern religion.
Because honestly fighting Ming as Uzbek isn't. Having 100 piety on top of every other bonus you have and malus they have makes it entirely free:
The wiki doesn't list it, but Manchu, Qing, Ming and Mughals are all tags explicitly barred from forming Yuan because reasons.
I'm actually not sure why Mughals are to be honest. The others kinda make sense since they're Chinese or Manchu, but why Mughals?
I don't know why exactly, but the Mughals are blocked from a lot of nation formations.
I think they're even blocked from forming Golden Horde, which I thought was odd considering that you need to be a horde to form the Golden Horde, and Mughals can't be a horde.
Can't they the same way Florryworry made the Ottomans tribal? That's pretty painful to do, but being a horde with Mughals ideas and claims is pretty appealing.
No, because Mughals are in the Muslim tech group, and only horde tech group nations can be released as hordes. Florry tried to make an Ottomans horde, and that didn't work, I don't see why the Mughals would be any different.
But it looks like you got the achivement. Doesn't it show up in your Steam?
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Can you go whatever--> Mughals--> Arabia --> Yuan?
Seems like all Mughals to Yuan strategies are going to require some culture shifting
Seems like all Mughals to Yuan strategies are going to require some culture shifting
Can you still get the "Great Khan" Achievement if you form Yuan, or do you have to get the cheevo first?
Yes, I did Mughals->Russia->Yuan, so Arabia would work fine.
I still had the achievement active as Yuan, so it should work, yes.