Do we have any legit 'Form Yuan' strategies?

[Gunnerstrip7]

I know there hasn't been ample time to come up with a strategy, but I'd like to think of ways to get to forming Yuan without cheesing the game over a silly typo and lots of tag-switching. Is there a legit way of doing it right now or is everyone still trying to figure it out? I know I am.

 

[JKiller96]

Just play as Oirat, become a tributary of Ming and ally Timurids and take everything bordering Ming until it explodes.

 

[Zohtun]

I know there hasn't been ample time to come up with a strategy, but I'd like to think of ways to get to forming Yuan without cheesing the game over a silly typo and lots of tag-switching. Is there a legit way of doing it right now or is everyone still trying to figure it out? I know I am.

Which typo is that?

 

[bbqftw]

legit is a highly subjective term

 

[Zohtun]

legit is a highly subjective term

Pretty true. The only "Legit" way is to play as Mongolia and restore GLORIOUS YUAN to power as happened before Ming's rise if you want to be anal about it.

 

[Gunnerstrip7]

Which typo is that?

The current strategy I see going around to form Yuan early is Ming -> Qing through culture shift -> Yuan

Ming can't form Yuan and Qing isn't supposed to be able to either, but they put the wrong tag in the code so the Qin, instead of Qing, can't form Yuan. This leads to people getting Yuan and their amazing ideas due to a typo.

Quick edit: I mean 'legit' as in 'not cheating or exploiting' I don't really care about being historically accurate by using Mongolia or not.

 

[GoffBall]

Oirat are Mongols as well, just don't mentioned it in front of a Mongolian.

 

[Rabid]

Just play as Oirat, become a tributary of Ming and ally Timurids and take everything bordering Ming until it explodes.

I've never actually tried an Oirat game before, what's the best way of dealing with Mongolia? They're cockblocking me from getting to all the good provinces in the region (especially Buryatia's gold mine!) Is it worth just straight up cancelling their vassalisation and then conquering them?

I tried a quick game as Korchin instead and had much better results, unifying east Mongolia with ease, and though your starting ruler is a bit crap you get to abdicate fairly soon thereafter. Significantly easier than forcing your 1st war to be against Chagatai.

It would be nice to have at least a reasonable idea of how strong you need to be in order to beat Ming as this is my first game taking over China since 1.20.

 

[MiniaAr]

I'll play as Mongolia to form Yuan and get the great khan achievement as well.

The strategy is pretty straightforward. Get Ming to support your independence, become a tributary. Focus on MIL. Gobble all Mongols, Manchus and Buryats to get over 300 dev. At this point break tributary status. If you have a tactics advantage (like tech 7) you can fight Ming with the horde CB and be careful only to fight winning battles.

Once the disaster for Ming starts, they're toast. Grab a couple of provinces and a lot of money to keep you afloat. Next war, they should have 0 mandate and this means garbage troops. Attack with mandate CB and grab all required provinces. If you can, grab the mandate as well. If not, wait until next war and voila.

 

[Sian]

yeah ... Mongolia, swapping syncretic religion to Confusian (to make Ming like you more) and get Ming to support your Independence, letting them do the heavy lifting against Oirat, become tributary and war your way down to Korea to grab Feudalism, and otherwise all your way around Mings Neighbours (partially so Ming can't blob even more than already) until you have a strong enough position (with allies) that you can take them on and cancel Tributary, waiting on either them getting into trouble (Disaster for having a non-tributary horde of a certain size) or them attacking you on your terms with all your allies joining

 

[TenshiN]

I've never actually tried an Oirat game before, what's the best way of dealing with Mongolia? They're cockblocking me from getting to all the good provinces in the region (especially Buryatia's gold mine!) Is it worth just straight up cancelling their vassalisation and then conquering them?

I tried a quick game as Korchin instead and had much better results, unifying east Mongolia with ease, and though your starting ruler is a bit crap you get to abdicate fairly soon thereafter. Significantly easier than forcing your 1st war to be against Chagatai.

It would be nice to have at least a reasonable idea of how strong you need to be in order to beat Ming as this is my first game taking over China since 1.20.

I tried a few Oirat runs in the last 2 days with the same objective and found, that the best way to deal with Mongolia is just release it from vassalage from the start (just after Ming declares its usual first war versus Korchin, so it won't attack the freshly-independent Mongolia instead) and annex it after 5 years of post-release peace pass. After that, just go for that glorious high-dev Manchu land (i turned the 2 manchu regions bordering Korea into states without razing, as they are quite rich).

Going for the muslim clay right from the start is terrible, since you either have to make Sunni syncretic which takes away the glorious Tengri bonus of -20% regiment cost or suffering heavy losses and constant rebellions for nearly-useless land that is also nearly unconvertable. Manchu lands will give you the necessary manpower and tax income to fund the further wars against Korea for even more good states and and making dealing with all the sunni-clay rebels much more manageable. Also always take as much money in peace deals as you can.
Also, the province of Hami, owned by Kara-Del at start is nice for developing feudalism/rennaisance). Increase relations with Ming and improve it a few times so Feudalism gets a decent spread-speed in it (i upped it until it got a ticking +1%/month)

As for taking on Ming, i did it in 1530 with a 50k army, 2 miltech advantage and 0 mandate for Ming. My 30k stack was 10-15-5

P.S: For the extra awesomeness, take the "Transfer Subjects for Half-Price" as your first Age of Exploration ability and get that Yarkand from Chagatai as your loyal lackey

 

[Rabid]

P.S: For the extra awesomeness, take the "Transfer Subjects for Half-Price" as your first Age of Exploration ability and get that Yarkand from Chagatai as your loyal lackey

I'd rather just conquer + raze everything tbh... in particular Yarkand have a gold mine and trade power province I'd like...

Even though a couple of the southern Manchu states are really high value I'd still rather just raze them all, there's so many strong states in China proper and it seems like the secret to success vs. Ming is getting into a strong position fast enough to beat them before they can start really getting stupid numbers of tributaries to buff their MP income and tech through the roof.

 

[TenshiN]

I'd rather just conquer + raze everything tbh... in particular Yarkand have a gold mine and trade power province I'd like...

Even though a couple of the southern Manchu states are really high value I'd still rather just raze them all, there's so many strong states in China proper and it seems like the secret to success vs. Ming is getting into a strong position fast enough to beat them before they can start really getting stupid numbers of tributaries to buff their MP income and tech through the roof.

Yarkand is wrong religion and need 2-3 wars to take, that way you can get it in 1 war without having to worry about rebels.
As for the manchus, i found that having a few richer states at start is useful for funding your army and getting your income and manpower in the green so you won't have problems with negative manpower and mercs is not something you can manage with those crap starting states. Later on, after you reform out of Horde-life, you can just cancel those states you start with in favor of the chinese ones.

 

[Kapi96]

Isn't it effectively the same as a Manchu>Qing run except starting as Mongolia or Oirat instead?

 

[PedroVargas]

I'm curently in an Oirat run. I stayed a tributary for very long. Now allied to the Ottomans, ate everything from Persia to the Russian border to Korea.

But I was horribly poor the whole playthrough. I have one advisor, cannot pay for more. Almost all through the game I had about 30K troops max. Tech wise I'm solid because of razing, and until I had humanist ideas I had so many rebels.

Anyway: First war against Ming, finally, when they were at 100 mandate and had all the reforms. It was bloody, I'm horribly in debt, but I got Beijing and the Manchu provinces from them, they are now in the "unguarded northern frontier" desaster, their Mandate is ticking down, and the next war should be a lot easier. I will eat a lot of China before I will take the crown because it's too hard to remain emperor when Ming has claimed all the potential tributaries basically from the start of the game.

Yuan is on the horizon.

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Isn't it effectively the same as a Manchu>Qing run except starting as Mongolia or Oirat instead?

Pretty much. Although I miss the banners!

 

[Zohtun]

Isn't it effectively the same as a Manchu>Qing run except starting as Mongolia or Oirat instead?

Basically

 

[TenshiN]

Isn't it effectively the same as a Manchu>Qing run except starting as Mongolia or Oirat instead?

It is not, since the start is a bit harder, since you will be pretty poor unless you get some of those nice manchu states/Buryatia

 

[Sian]

Also, Yuan have better ideas, possibly the best in game ...

Traditions:
Manpower Modifier +25%
Cavalry Combat Ability +20%

First:
Core Creation Cost -25%

Second:
Army Morale +10%

Third:
Technology Cost -10%

Forth:
Shock Damage done +10%

Fifth:
Army Movement +15%
Envoy Travel time -10%

Sixth:
Administrative Efficiency +5%

Seventh:
Goods Production +10%

Ambition:
Max States +5

Only thing it doesn't have is Infantry Combat ability and Discipline, but the other military amplifiers make up for it

 

[PedroVargas]

It is not, since the start is a bit harder, since you will be pretty poor unless you get some of those nice manchu states/Buryatia

You actually stay poor even with the gold mines. The provinces north of Ming are mostly crap and you run out of states very fast but the tribes demand more land nontheless. It's the same as with Manchu, but it felt harder this campaign. My name was huge on the map but there I was fielding a joke of an army.

All worth it in the end though

 

[TenshiN]

You actually stay poor even with the gold mines. The provinces north of Ming are mostly crap and you run out of states very fast but the tribes demand more land nontheless. It's the same as with Manchu, but it felt harder this campaign. My name was huge on the map but there I was fielding a joke of an army.

All worth it in the end though

With only Buryatia and 2 Manchu states bordering Korea fully stated (besides the initial ones) and not razed i can field a 50k army, run 3 +1 advisors and make +3 ducats monthly. And it is before i took land from Ming