Do we have a Flop on our hands??

[AOK. 11]

I am a lucky man. I have patience waiting for things, especially great things. Ten years from now, I will probably still be playing HOI3. To pronounce it a flop is a joke, and a sad one at that. It is an incredibly complex and ambitious project. I knew it would have major bugs in its initial days. It was inevitable, just as it is inevitable with all other incredibly complex and ambitious projects undertaken in any arena.

The bugs will be fixed, and it will be the masterpiece of its genre. Quit whining.

 

[Balota Grigore]

Let me set the stage:

It's 1936. Romania sits on the political stage amidst a growing global fear that war would soon be approaching. Amongst the leading Romanian political figures there formed a consensus that the country needed to head in a new direction. That direction was towards Germany; a great, powerful ally and trading partner to the north. It was clear that they had their sights set on expanding their borders. What better way to expand our own than to join them in their European conquests?!

The Romanian army was reorganized and sent to the West, positioning themselves on Hungry's border for the ever eventual attack. The useless Navy was disbanded. Top scientists were given the task to expand the industrial base and modernize the infantry's equipment. Diplomatic overtures were made towards Germany, Italy, and Japan, expressing Romanian interests in joining the powerful Axis.

Once everything was in place, all that remained was to wait. Wait for the right time to strike.

And wait.

...and wait.

And wait some more.

...still waiting.

* 3 gaming hours later *

Well, that should be about enough...GOOD GOD! IT'S ONLY 1937! AGGGGHHH!

---------------------

Seriously. I've had this game on the highest speed setting possible for about 2 hours now. I've already got everything set up. The only thing I've actually been DOING is watching an endless spam of trade deals pop up that I have no interest in and researching about 7 techs. I never thought I'd learn a new synonym for "tedium" but I'm readily willing to nominate "Hearts of Iron 3".

Please, for all that is good and holy in the universe, make it go faster! I'll give you a cookie if you do!

This is what u can do while u w8 ..
Overall View
Spain+Vichy France(France is stil in the game)
Picture 1
Persia+a bit of Vichy
Picture 2
Europe(Hun,Yug,Bul,Greece and Turkey)
Picture 3

Plus i'm a major power now

 

[unmerged(38860)]

Even though my icons don't show it, I bought HoI 1 and HoI 2 within days of them coming out (haven't bothered to register them here).

HoI1 was quite literally unplayable on release. It was a mess. Even after they got it at least working they still had issues to clean up - all those improvements you researched? They disappeared after a save. The basic problem was that the game didn't bother to recalculate your technology based benefits after a save. HoI1 was never really that good without mods.

HoI2 was better when it came out, it was at least playable, but it still had... issues. HoI2 once patched up was okay, actually to the point that it could be played vanilla. Mods tended to make it better though.

I'm not terribly surprised that HoI3 is in the state its in. Paradox has absolutely horrible QA, its better than it was in the days of HoI1 (oh you should have seen the forums back then), but still not that good. Still, this game is in pretty good shape, needs some tweaks to Diplomacy and Supply, probably a few other things I haven't noticed. And the code needs to be optimized - a lot.

How could this game have been considered finished with some of its obvious flaws? In between the diplomacy being shaky (Sweden and Switzerland rushing to join the allies? Please), and the serious problems with the code being slow and getting slower as the game runs, it seems hard to imagine. Obviously it couldn't, but that is par for the course in the gaming industry, and particularly for HoI games.

Release, then patch to the point it works.

Extremely frustrating to be sure. But that's the way it is.

And whining on the forums is to be expected, even from a good release. I remember when Stardock released Galactic Civilizations II, they started their own threads on the forum called "Starting Class Action Suit", "This Game Sucks", "Stardock Stole My Money!", and other things like that. Obviously tongue in cheek, and GC2 was a strong release, but they were right to expect that kind of screaming and hysterics.

I'm not going to be overly excited about what any of this means. Its nothing new.

 

[unmerged(156412)]

Now, as the sunlight of release 1.1c bathes my computer in its light, all is well in digity-gigity land.

 

[Red Ant]

I would back you up here, but I think it would get me in trouble.

I will back him up there. Go ahead and ban me if you like. Berating a guy over insulting someone who insulted him first and letting the original offense go unchallenged is absolutely ridiculous.

 

[unmerged(148774)]

I am a lucky man. I have patience waiting for things, especially great things. Ten years from now, I will probably still be playing HOI3. To pronounce it a flop is a joke, and a sad one at that. It is an incredibly complex and ambitious project. I knew it would have major bugs in its initial days. It was inevitable, just as it is inevitable with all other incredibly complex and ambitious projects undertaken in any arena.

The bugs will be fixed, and it will be the masterpiece of its genre. Quit whining.

Yes. This sums it up quite nicely. I'd rather that PI tried something deep and complex rather than something shallow and easy that worked perfectly right off the bat to be honest.

I hope to revisit this thread in a year and laugh.

 

[Naga Niome]

I have criticized Hearts of Iron 3 with one or two posts and when I look back, I think my argument is justified. But realistically, with such an intricate project, small but experienced team and lack of dedicated beta-testers, it is obvious these problems would come up.

Johan, his team and Paradox Interactive deserve tremendous amounts of respect. I'm tired of hearing about complaints now although should be allowed to voice their opinion. Furthermore, the mentioning of these old grand strategy WWII games should be shelved because they're old and they don't compare to the next-generation evolution of grand strategy games that the Hearts of Iron series has accomplished. I don't really care if War In The Pacific existed or whatever, because they're old, outdated and it's features shouldn't compare to the great features of HoI3.

Matter of fact, the Total War series has had tremendous, incredible problems that OVERSHADOW Hearts of Iron 3. Every release of there's is stacked full of game issues and game-crashing bugs.

You have a lot of animosity to call out HoI3 in contrast to Total War.

I have complete faith they're going to fix and improve everything that is wrong in HoI3 in 1-2 months from middle of August now.

 

[unmerged(148878)]

Yes. This sums it up quite nicely. I'd rather that PI tried something deep and complex rather than something shallow and easy that worked perfectly right off the bat to be honest.

I hope to revisit this thread in a year and laugh.

exactly, even the fact that it has a lot of bugs at the moment just shows that the game is pretty, deep. im sure it wasent hard to patch command and conquer

 

[Vidfavne]

Perhaps a little bit OT, but I really have to respond to this:

Well, Civilization IV was almost free of bugs when the game was sold.

No, it had some really awful bugs. For example, you could get into a war with yourself by allying with somebody's vassal, and then when the master of the vassal declares war on you: chaos.

Now, it is even absolutely free of bugs as far as I know.

No. For example, when you enter the world editor, half of the time the holy cities under AI control loses their ... holyness. But it's almost free of bugs.

There should be at least a bit more care about quality in HOI 3.

Yep. But I for one expected this, I'll just wait another 3-6 months and then buy a (hopefully) polished, working, enjoyable and hopefully not too slow HoI 3. It'll probably be much cheaper too by that time.

 

[finbarr]

I am very happy with HOI3. Recent updates have radically improved performance on my machine, and unlike many commentators I seem to be getting fairly plausible results. And the HQ system is a wonderful addition. Supply seems far more compelling, and the idea of frontage gives a whole new feel to the game-I was sick of mega stacks. Being able to build your own divisions is a blast, but takes a little thought, not a lot, but just enough. Intelligence is way past anything before, but I am only beginning to dabble in that.

Yes, in my game, like many others, the world is allied in January 1940, including the USA. On the other hand, Paris is no longer in the hands of the French, Yugoslavia is about to go under and the Spanish are crumbling. At normal difficulty it is fairly easy to get that far. And quite reasonable to expect the oft-cited 'everyone-joins-the-allies' reaction. I have a suspicion that some players move much faster than historical and then are surprised everyone gets upset. On the other hand. I read somewhere of a game where the Germans kept quiet, and avoided war up till '42. And this is where I really begin to like the game.
Within the context of a historical baseline, there are options to try radically different strategies-like a Z plan.
All that aside, there are enough irksome issues that I will wait for 1.2 to play again. But I will wait in quiet confidence.

 

[Depp]

No. For example, when you enter the world editor, half of the time the holy cities under AI control loses their ... holyness. But it's almost free of bugs.

This has never happened to me with civ4, though I only play the Fall from heaven 2 mod and it's modmod Fall Further.

I beta tested Hoi1 back in the day, and I did a horrible job since I just got a new job and started working 700 overtime hours a year. Hoi1 was worse than this on release.

Still, Paradox should really have a much bigger beta and delay their releases 3-6 months. I can wait for the patches to come, but alot of first timer Hoi players are permanently scared away from the franchise by this. Had this game been polish it would have sold 25% more. And more sales with retail price and not bargin bin price. But since it hasn't changed yet it probably won't, so I guess we have to roll with it, again

Still, the endresult is usually worth the wait and the effort to try the game over and over.

But these threads are importent so people can went frustration. Not everyone has a budda like psych that just can let it be and meditate until patch 4 rolls our way.

 

[unmerged(148710)]

This type of release honestly is pretty par for the course for PI games. It's why I didn't pre-order it.... I KNEW from past experience that there was a 99% chance that it would be buggy to the point it was unplayable (for me.... some people can deal with the frustrations of having to start over and over again or hacking save game files to prevent crashes, etc....I won't do that for a game).

Upon trying the demo, I was certainly happy about my decision.

PI makes buggy games....particulary the HOI series. They are also very good at patching and providing support for MODS. HOI series games tend to be fairly buggy even after they've had many patches.... Each patch, though it fixes a ton of bugs...also seems to introduce a handful of new ones.

It's one of the reasons I don't play HOI series games more often. I bought HOI1 & HOI2....and after considerable patches and MODs eventualy I liked them.... I think they became decent games....I think HOI3 likely will eventualy too....although there are certain things about HOI3 that I don't particularly like and may cause me to skip buying it.

I will say that some of the hyperbole and rhetoric by some of the fans here REALLY is over the top. Paradox is not the only developer of strategy games.... and the HOI series...while I think enjoyable probably doesn't even rate in my personal Top 20 in ANY game catagory (WWII, Strategy, War Games, etc).

I'd also like to point out a couple things....

- Just because a game is older and has been around for awhile doesn't neccesarly make it a worse game.... unless you rate something based entirely on graphics and "eye candy" alot of the older games have ALOT going for them....especialy in PvP play.

- Complexity does NOT equal better game play...or a better game. To some extent I might even argue the reverse. Look at Chess for example, the mechanics of it are really VERY simple....it's the gameplay and strategies of it that are deep.... so much so that people devote volumes to it even thousands of years after the game was invented.

So while I think labeling HOI3 a "flop" is not accurate....I find the guys talking about HOI3 as if it's the best invention since the wheel, equaly if not more silly.

HOI3 has things going for it....and things going against it....it'll meet the tastes of some strategy fans and not others...... right now I think it's even too early to judge accurately how decent/crappy the game will be when the dust of the early rounds of patches/mods settle.

I'm taking a wait and see attitude for now.....it's not like there is any shortage of games out there to play.

 

[unmerged(74599)]

EU II still stands not only as the best Paradox release, but also as a classic on par with Civilization, which I played before it got numbers attached to its name. I have certainly played HOI II more than EU II, but as a "game", EU II was simple enough to have a player play it, as opposed to being played by it. On top of that Johan made the best of a very simple graphical format to make a very handsome looking piece, even without a lot of fancy graphics.

I bought HOI III knowing full well I could not get serious about it for the next 6 months to a year, precisely for the purpose of using the interim period to develop a new mod that will play well in an MP format. Time will tell if that is possible.

But hell, paying the 50 dollars has been worth it just to watch people scream and howl. And of course its nothing against the many many hours of enjoyment I got out of past Paradox games, like EU II, which is still being played and modded even today.

 

[stephen_tome]

I can only speak for myself. I wanted to get my hands on this game as soon as possible. I did not care that there were going to be bugs/isues with the game. I would rather have the game being release earlier than later, becase then I can have some imput on some of the changes to be made to the game. Unlike those large software companies that release a game when the game is 100% complete and do not want any feedback from me the gamer, PI is very different.

I have to applaud PI in releasing the game when they did. I know that for release 1.3 there will be things in the release that were never planned or anticipated and they were only put in the game because of gamers like myself providing feedback to them.

 

[elizibar]

I may not have been very nice in my appraisal of HoI3 as it *currently* is. but there's a great game lurking underneath the surface of it. I hope it gets chiseled out of the rock soon so I can play it, and doesn't end up like MoO3, halfway fixed and then abandoned before it could deliver on some of the neat things it had going for it.

 

[vertinox]

EU II still stands not only as the best Paradox release, but also as a classic on par with Civilization, which I played before it got numbers attached to its name.

I'd have to disagree about the EU2 being the best game....

IMO Crusader Kings is still the best Paradox game and possible the best computer game of all time.

But it was the worst release Paradox has ever done.

It took 4 years of patching, but I have not spent as many hours playing any other game as I have of that game.

 

[hildoceras]

may i remind people that an inappropriate language is not authorized in the forum rules (rule 5).
and we are close to trolling there (rule 6)

 

[Depp]

I'd have to disagree about the EU2 being the best game....

IMO Crusader Kings is still the best Paradox game and possible the best computer game of all time.

But it was the worst release Paradox has ever done.

It took 4 years of patching, but I have not spent as many hours playing any other game as I have of that game.

We are certainly different. I was really intrigued by the characther dynasty system of CK, but it turned out to just be alot of micro finding brides and a even worse combat system than EU2. Years later I heard alot of good things about the expansion but I played it only about 3 times. I played Victoria abit more but still that game felt like the same no matter what nation I played so I left it. But I still think CK COULD be good done right, Victoria I'm not so sure... Well see after the sequal has been out for a long time.

Eu2 was good, Eu 1 was the breakthrough game though. But I have more hours playing Hoi2 than the other games combined, but alot of it is multiplayer where the others are all single player. Eu3 was fun only after InNomine which was far to late for me to give it more than 100 hours or so

Still looking forward to what paradox can do in the future, especially with Hoi3. To early to flip or flop though...

 

[unmerged(148641)]

Unless they fix the horrendous game speed, I'm quite willing to start throwing acronyms at it.

I'm already calling it Legs of Iron 3

 

[djconklin]

From another thread: Er no. I prefer to wait 2 weeks for a decent or even half-decent (two weeks is rushed work already) patch than to get a few fixes with even more issues every two days.

If I started a game company I'd use an idea I heard of from Japan which when translated means "constant improvement." I'd have a new patch issued every week and no new game released till all the bugs in the existing game is fixed.