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Most Paradox games has been like this since the start, bordering unplayable on release day and becoming the de facto standard everything else is compared to after a few patches.

Personally I don't mind, I know not to seriously try to play their games until they've been patched to playable status but I don't really understand why they are using this approach as one can only guess how many customers they have lost by releasing titles too early and having people giving up on them.

I must admit I'm a bit worried about the latest trend set with Rome, though. Requiring people to buy an expansion to get a playable game was a disgrace that cut deep into my respect for Paradox and for that reason alone I never bought that game even though I'm very attracted to its historical period.

I sure as hell hope Hoi3 won't be another Rome, I guess time will show.
 

nervi

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You know whats so sad:

People form paradox saying on the forum way earlier, that the cpu you had wouldnt be that important at all.............

And the map, lol the map is a dumb joke, it has cities on wrong place, it has MAJOR rivers, that were part of DEFENSIVE plans for certain countries not on the map.
The shape of a lot of countries just doesnt make sense at all.
There are things in the game: where you can reload the gui if you click wrong on a button, should never be in a completed game.

A lot of people liked the hoi2 game for the "If I do this, what happpens then" mentality, but you cant do that now anymore, because the game is too slow for that.
I have the feeling hoi2 is like master of orion II and hoi3 became like master of orion 3, too much data, too much micromanagement, too much for the ai too handle.
Its no longer the same fun game.
 

SIJoe

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I sure as hell hope Hoi3 won't be another Rome, I guess time will show.

You know you're in the wrong forums when, where someone says 'Rome', you think "Rome: Total War" :p
 

ivniciix

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Yup...I am disappointed. The map lacks detail at any zoom level. The writing of the tutorials is pathetic...and where is the combat tutorial or the command structure one!!!! It's slow and even at reduced settings the mouse/map movement is jerky.

Beyond that, where is the ability to coordinate combat with an ally? I know this wasn't promised (that I know of) but it's a serious shortcoming.

Granted, I started out as Communist China and actually made better progress than in HOI II but...geez...I hadn't expected III to play as though it was 1...or .5. Unfortunately, it does.
 

unmerged(74599)

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Really, your opinion, mines different. Take a look at the 36 French scenario and tell me that the divisions are right--they aren't, take a look a the 43 panzer divisions--they aren't either. And those are just the countries I've tinkered with. Maybe the OBATS and where you want to start a defence. . .

The geography is poor, the copyediting is poor and the historical research is poor. All my opinion so take it for what its worth--probably nothing to you; but hey, thats your opinion, it's cool with me.

Heh. Many people have put in many many many thousands of hours vetting HOI for that for nearly a decade now, and they still don't have it all right. I am sure much of that work will get incorporated into the game as it moves along, but you have to remember that those hours were all unpaid hours, and if Paradox paid people to do that level of heavy duty historical research naming every single division properly, and checking it all against each new release, you would not have anything to have an opinion about since Johan would be on social assistance and spare changing in Stockholm for beer money.

There was a whole project for HOI II called the Community Database Correction Project with a team of 20 or 30 people all volunteering to put many hours into checking and coallating data and then rendering it into patch files for upload, including correct translations in French, German and Spanish.

You simply have no idea of the quantity of work you are demanding, based on some errors you found. No doubt, there are many that you missed too, but that says it all. No one has in there mind the complete OBB of the French Army in 1940, and if you were seriously try to research that, coalate all that and then render it in to text files without error.

The fact is the bottom line is that the game is a commercial product, and most people don't have the the comprehensive knowledge about the war, nor to they have much interest in it. They are interested in the generalities of the game, not replicating the exact French OBB from 1940.

At some point the certain things go into triage, most people are too busy playing to worry about weather or not a Japanese submarine flotilla should be a called a Sentai (Squadron or Flotilla), or Kantai (fleet) or whether or not the Japanese Pearl Harbour strike force should be called a "Kido Butai", or "Shingeki Butai" (or perhaps Kido Kantai!) . That might interest an idiot savant like me, but not most people, so they do the best the can and specific historical accuracy is very far down on the lists of must do things, when you are under the gun trying to make a deadline, and pay the bills.

I bet if you check they still have the Japanese sub fleets named Sensuikantai's instead of Sensuisentai's which is what they should have been called, imo. And who cares? Their job is to produce a video game, not a database of WWII nomenclature and idioms.

I couldn't give much of a damn really, I am far more interested in if the programmers created a production and combat system that can be said to somewhat simulate the strategic dynamics of the war, not if they get the exact specifications for Panther A's and C's and D's, because I am buying a strategy game, not Battlefield 1942 where such consideration are more important because that is a tactical FPS combat engine.

In the end they depend on people like you to bring corrections to their attention so the next patch can fix it.
 
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SIJoe

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Heh, you'd have a point cueball, if it weren't for the fact that that Paradax pride themselves in their historical realism. All those arguments you put out there? That's something Creative Assembly would say.

I understand what you mean, but they shouldn't have set the bar so high for themselves. Whether intentional or not, people now expect a high degree of realism and accuracy from Paradox games, and until they chose to correct that, they're gonna get flack when they don't deliver.
 

unmerged(67641)

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Well it doesn't feel like much of a contribution but I don't see many other people saying it. I actually like the map, I think it's got a flavor to it, it's a too bad I know I'll have to disable the trees and water effect, because I think it looks pretty snappy.
 

Vulture

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Heh, you'd have a point cueball, if it weren't for the fact that that Paradax pride themselves in their historical realism. All those arguments you put out there? That's something Creative Assembly would say.

I understand what you mean, but they shouldn't have set the bar so high for themselves. Whether intentional or not, people now expect a high degree of realism and accuracy from Paradox games, and until they chose to correct that, they're gonna get flack when they don't deliver.

And yet, for all errors prolly still in there, HOI3 is not 'ahistorical'. It's as historical as time allowed Paradox it to be mate. And blatant errors will be ironed out.

This kind of criticism is quite striking when you see that authors around the globe don't even have all the specifics on every German WWII division after 60 years of research, even when the German army is prolly the most researched one out there.
 

SIJoe

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I know Vulture, I know, I'm just trying to make a point that developers need to lie in the beds they make for themselves, and there is such a concept as biting off more then you can chew. It's happened many a time in games in the past.
 

unmerged(74599)

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Heh, you'd have a point cueball, if it weren't for the fact that that Paradax pride themselves in their historical realism. All those arguments you put out there? That's something Creative Assembly would say.

I understand what you mean, but they shouldn't have set the bar so high for themselves. Whether intentional or not, people now expect a high degree of realism and accuracy from Paradox games, and until they chose to correct that, they're gonna get flack when they don't deliver.

From what I can tell Paradox prides themselves on its game engine, and I have the distinct sense that WWII is not Johan's primary area of interest. But that is just a guess. After all, many years later, when we are looking at the third release of HOI, we forget the fact that his first game was about the political forces, military technologies and theocratic ideologies that gave rise to the nation state in Europe, and it began in 15th Century and ended in the early 19th century.

And that game is still the best game this company ever produced, in my view.
 
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Edward D.G.

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. . . stuff. . .You simply have no idea of the quantity of work you are demanding, based on some errors you found. No doubt, there are many that you missed too, but that says it all. No one has in there mind the complete OBB of the French Army in 1940, and if you were seriously try to research that, coallate all that and then render it in to text files without error. . . .stuff. . .

This is the part that gets me--I do know. I know exactly how long its taken me to find the resources that tell me what I know, I know how frustrating it is to find conflicting sources and having to make a choice about who might be right. And I know that one year is more than enough to get a rudimentary knowledge of what you are putting together, and thats assuming whoever they have knows nothing about the period. The part that frustrates me is if I can do it for free I sure as heck expect someone WHO IS GETTING PAID to do a better job. Especially when 'rendering it in text files' which is really what, typing? Spelling doesn't count in Sweden? Oddly enough, Paradox didn't corner the market on people who know their history. Any errors that can be found in under two minutes really shouldn't be in a release should they?

Bah, at least I can change what needs to be changed--I guess I figure I just shouldn't have to.
 

onkeljonas

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Stuff like this is about standard for a Paradox game release. Give it a little while.
Yea... I bet the OP wasn't around for the first HOI release. That game was actually unplayable, not just a little buggy like this one.

As for historical realism - Paradox actually puts gameplay and fun (whatever those mean is of course debateable) way above historical accuracy. Or so they say...
 

Vulture

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I know Vulture, I know, I'm just trying to make a point that developers need to lie in the beds they make for themselves, and there is such a concept as biting off more then you can chew. It's happened many a time in games in the past.

Bah. If it weren't for crazy guys like Paradox, we'll all be playing basic RTS :p
 

unmerged(59543)

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Yea... I bet the OP wasn't around for the first HOI release. That game was actually unplayable, not just a little buggy like this one.

I remember it too. With first HoI (I bought it immediately it was released) I got CTDs every minute or so. Then With HoI2 I waited six months and I hadn't any CTDs. It isn't wonder that there are bugs in HoI3 but they will get fixed. So HoI3 isn't flop nor it will never be.
 

unmerged(74599)

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This is the part that gets me--I do know. I know exactly how long its taken me to find the resources that tell me what I know, I know how frustrating it is to find conflicting sources and having to make a choice about who might be right. And I know that one year is more than enough to get a rudimentary knowledge of what you are putting together, and thats assuming whoever they have knows nothing about the period. The part that frustrates me is if I can do it for free I sure as heck expect someone WHO IS GETTING PAID to do a better job. Especially when 'rendering it in text files' which is really what, typing? Spelling doesn't count in Sweden? Oddly enough, Paradox didn't corner the market on people who know their history. Any errors that can be found in under two minutes really shouldn't be in a release should they?

Right but those are the errors you see that are obvious to you. I am sure if I were to do the historical research I would apply my own knowledge base to the project and would miss things that you wouldn't, and the reverse would certainly be true as well. No one is going to have a comprehensive base of knowledge for an event as big as WWII. Asia is perrenially screwed up in this game and most people would screw it up, in fact, because they are Europeans, and the game is made from a European standpoint.

What is obvious to you may not be obvious to someone else. I am sure I would catch you on some things that I think are pretty obvious.

Bah, at least I can change what needs to be changed--I guess I figure I just shouldn't have to.

But you see, there it is. One thing that stuck with me that I read here was some guy who said the beauty of the game system is its infinite modability. A lot of people don't realize that modability is a distinct and important game feature that Paradox delivers with its games. That takes work too, and it is a specific game feature that they work to provide.

Would you prefer a game that came in a package with the entire platform, errors included, packaged up in C++ rather than handy text files that allow you, the user, to apply your vision to the game?
 
Last edited:

Atomcreator

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I'm glad to say I dont think this is a flop. Certainly not of MOO3 standard as I was worrying about.
Just like most others, I think it just needs some TLC.
Which will come in the next few months.:)
 

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Your comparision doesnt work. The car wouldnt have an engine, and the tires would be in the trunk for you to install yourself for your comparision to work.

No offense, but when I buy a program, i expect bugs, but i dont expect glaring gamebreaking bugs that should of been caught and destroyed THE FIRST DAY OF A BETA.

I find this statement exceptionally annoying. You seem to think that if a bug is in the game now it must have been there since day one. If you had ever been a beta tester or knew anything about the process you would realise that that as the game changes bugs are fixed and sometimes bugs are unintentionally created. Just because a bug is here now doesn't mean it was there before the last patch.
 

RELee

A stranger in a strange land.
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Well, so far I've not experienced any speed issues with the demo.

Probably because my laptop is company-bought and about as good as they come. My sympathies for those who are experiencing problems.

But that's not my point.

I would have to say that I was almost hoping to not like HOI3. Oh, I wasn't wishing ill on the game or the company, but when Vicky2 was passed up again my temper kicked in and I just did not want to like the game. But I was dutiful and downloaded the demo and all.

And, dang it, the game is good. Yes, I like it. It's as buggy as any first release, but Johan and crew have every reason to be proud of their work. Go ahead and crow, y'all.

But that's not my point.

I read statements this morning that moan over the perfectness of HOI2, how great HOI2 is, HOI3 sucks dirty dishwasher so I'm going back to HOI2 because it is just simply the greatest game there is; and I laugh and laugh and laugh.:rofl:

The anger, the hatefulness, the awful things that were said about HOI2 and Paradox when HOI2 Armageddon was first released were much, much worse than what anybody is saying this morning. Yet, people this morning hold up HOI2 as a shining example of what a WWII game should be.

OK.:p

The reason why HOI2 is being held up as a shining example of what a WWII game should be is because of the efforts by both PI employees and all these forum "fanboys".

So, come on, young'uns and get a grip. By all means, go through the game and find the bugs and inconsistencies. Locate the proper place on the map for the cities. Make recommendations for changes to the OOB.

Even better, if it means so much to you and your peaceful state of mind, learn how to mod and start making and posting your own corrections. Lord knows we need more informed and working "fanboys" on this forum. The more we have the quicker the game gets better and better.

But, as I said to those moaning over the "broken" initial release of Armageddon, just be patient. Don't despair. This game is going to get better. Not this morning, not tomorrow morning, maybe even not this month, but it will get better.

Ok, so now I've made my point. Some of you will get it. Some of you will decide to say something snarky to me in response. It is immaterial either way. I've made my point.;)

Currahee!
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