Do the same nations always dominate India in your games too?

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EvilFuzzyDoom

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I think the no-Europeans problem is that the Indonesia missions are spawning when they shouldn't, so Europeans are declaring wars they can't prosecute on Makassar, instead of dropping bases in India which lead them to naturally expand there.
 
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TheMeInTeam

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Do the same nations always dominate Europe in your games too?

Seriously, in my every single game ever AI ends up dividing Europe between few major empires which stagnate till the end. Those empires are practically always:

*Austria
*PLC
*Ottomans
*France
*England
*Russia
*Portugal

On top of that they all tend to behave similarly: The German region mostly goes Protestant, Ottomans is strong early but is later destroyed because of being in the middle, southern part is always dominated by France and Spain etc...always the same set and always the same lack of any historicity.

*Burgundian inheritance almost never goes to the historical nation
*Practically no French wars of religion ever
*Ottomans rarely focus into Europe
*No Italian wars or league of Cambrai
*No Spain bankrupting or Dutch having colonies conquered
*Huge number of tags never appearing

So what region do you want to do next?
 
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klingonadmiral

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IMO those are credible great powers in India if we remove the Mughal Empire.
They are the ones that start out in control of the core areas that was/can be used for the rise of great empires.

The thing is that at least for me, it's almost always the same state that achieves dominance. All these games are from 1.13 and 1.12:

1. Bahmanis + Bengal/Delhi/Malwa/Sind

hVl9l1n.png

2. "India est omnis divisa in partes tres" - Bahmanistan + Bengal + Delhi

ztZGft8.png

3. The only time I have actually seen a chaotic India, after the collapse of a big Orissa

IKi8FhB.png

4. Bahmanis + Bengal/Jaunpur/Multan

tYlgLca.png

5. Bahmanis + Sind/Delhi/Bengal

diwEBVw.png

6. Bahmanis + Jaunpur

wozXxFW.png

7. Bahmanis + Bengal

Zf8QiCK.png

8. Mega-Vijayaganar 1

5ND1hTi.png

9. Mega-Vijayaganar 2

bOp7i1l.png

I don't have a problem with local Indian states becoming Great Powers, I dislike that it is almost always the same region that achieves dominance, the South. Which makes sense considering how EU4 works, the rest of India is divided between many small-to-medium sized tags, which will take their time to consolidate into powerful nations. The south on the other hand is pretty much a duel between Bahmanis and Vijayaganar Once one of them breaks the other (and avoids major rebellions, disasters are being ganged up upon) they can easily swoop up the minors around them. And the war that breaks one will probably happen in the first few decades as well, as both start with cores on each other.

And if it's not the south who wins India, its the eastern coast, Bengal or very rarely Orissa. I have yet to see a true superpower emerge from the Indus, the upper Ganges or Gujarat.
 
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Do the same nations always dominate Europe in your games too?

Seriously, in my every single game ever AI ends up dividing Europe between few major empires which stagnate till the end. Those empires are practically always:

*Austria
*PLC
*Ottomans
*France
*England
*Russia
*Portugal

On top of that they all tend to behave similarly: The German region mostly goes Protestant, Ottomans is strong early but is later destroyed because of being in the middle, southern part is always dominated by France and Spain etc...always the same set and always the same lack of any historicity.

*Burgundian inheritance almost never goes to the historical nation
*Practically no French wars of religion ever
*Ottomans rarely focus into Europe
*No Italian wars or league of Cambrai
*No Spain bankrupting or Dutch having colonies conquered
*Huge number of tags never appearing

So what region do you want to do next?

With respect, this thread is regarding India and it's an interesting one.

*

Has anyone ever seen a Maratha rising in roughly its timescale from a 1444 start? I grant it unlikely considering all the variables in a 350 year frame, but just once out of 2500 hours would have been fascinating. It's too much to ask that the Mughals *and* the Marathas are formed in one single shared game : P

I do miss those HoI2 small map scenarios which would do this sort of thing justice. <- *important bit here*

Very slight geographical OT Edit edit: Traversing the EU wiki just now. Top tip for Taungu page!

7QwIjCp.jpg
 
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TheMeInTeam

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With respect, this thread is regarding India and it's an interesting one.

*

Has anyone ever seen a Maratha rising in roughly its timescale from a 1444 start? I grant it unlikely considering all the variables in a 350 year frame, but just once out of 2500 hours would have been fascinating. It's too much to ask that the Mughals *and* the Marathas are formed in one single shared game : P

I do miss those HoI2 small map scenarios which would do this sort of thing justice.

I made my post the way I did to point out that it is strange to single out any given region; most areas in the game behave this way. The only major exception is Ming because of the extreme variance of impact when it blows up vs gets lucky status and grows. The other regions are largely the same with an occasional outlier, just like India (I've seen huge Sind, Multan, Gujurat, Mewar which is the worst thing ever, they're just significantly less common).

Maratha rising is late enough in the period that it would take a travesty on the order of the NED events to kick them out.
 
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Has anyone ever seen a Maratha rising in roughly its timescale from a 1444 start? I grant it unlikely considering all the variables in a 350 year frame, but just once out of 2500 hours would have been fascinating. It's too much to ask that the Mughals *and* the Marathas are formed in one single shared game : P

Only as a breakaway from Portuguese Goa.
 
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List of countries in my games that dominated the sub-continent:

-France game (France)
-English game (Great Britain)
-Jürchen game (Qing)
-Tabarestan game (Persia)

Getting the picture here?
 
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I've found that Vijayanagara is usually the weak link, easily getting conquered by the Bahmanis most of the time.
 

Krajzen

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Do the same nations always dominate Europe in your games too?

Seriously, in my every single game ever AI ends up dividing Europe between few major empires which stagnate till the end. Those empires are practically always:

*Austria
*PLC
*Ottomans
*France
*England
*Russia
*Portugal

On top of that they all tend to behave similarly: The German region mostly goes Protestant, Ottomans is strong early but is later destroyed because of being in the middle, southern part is always dominated by France and Spain etc...always the same set and always the same lack of any historicity.

*Burgundian inheritance almost never goes to the historical nation
*Practically no French wars of religion ever
*Ottomans rarely focus into Europe
*No Italian wars or league of Cambrai
*No Spain bankrupting or Dutch having colonies conquered
*Huge number of tags never appearing

So what region do you want to do next?


I don't agree, I have seen a huge diversity in the way Europe develops.
*There was a super powerful France PU'ing the entire Iberia and ravaging the continent, medium sized France and France killed by nearby nations
*I've seen powerful Castille, powerful Aragon, powerful Portugal and even powerful Al - Andalus once
*I've seen Italy dominated by Tuscany, Milan, Papal State, Venice or outsider
*I've seen massive PLC, massive Bohemia, massive Orders, massive Russia, massive hordes, grand Denmark or grand Sweden
*HRE is extremely different each time
*I've seen total destruction of Ottos, total domination of Ottos, great Hungary, great Austria, great Serbia, revival of Byzantium, great Wallachia or Knights...
*Religious landscape tends to be very varied too

Meanwhile India seriously looks the same almost every time I play: divided between 3-4 major empires, usually sultanates who tend to behave similarly from game to game.

I don't have that deja vu regarding any other part of the world, I've seen a lot of varied things happening to the Middle East, East Africa, South East Asia, steppes or China or Americas. Well the other area I think is too static is West Africa which tends to be divided between Mali and some eastern desert tribe.
 
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I don't agree, I have seen a huge diversity in the way Europe develops.
*There was a super powerful France PU'ing the entire Iberia and ravaging the continent, medium sized France and France killed by nearby nations
*I've seen powerful Castille, powerful Aragon, powerful Portugal and even powerful Al - Andalus once
*I've seen Italy dominated by Tuscany, Milan, Papal State, Venice or outsider
*I've seen massive PLC, massive Bohemia, massive Orders, massive Russia, massive hordes, grand Denmark or grand Sweden
*HRE is extremely different each time
*I've seen total destruction of Ottos, total domination of Ottos, great Hungary, great Austria, great Serbia, revival of Byzantium, great Wallachia or Knights...
*Religious landscape tends to be very varied too

Meanwhile India seriously looks the same almost every time I play: divided between 3-4 major empires, usually sultanates who tend to behave similarly from game to game.

I don't have that deja vu regarding any other part of the world, I've seen a lot of varied things happening to the Middle East, East Africa, South East Asia, steppes or China or Americas. Well the other area I think is too static is West Africa which tends to be divided between Mali and some eastern desert tribe.

I have to agree, I've seen a lot more variety in Europe than in India. I like my games having historical inclinations, but I would like to see some variations every once in a while, too.
 

rizla7

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It's not broken. All nations that have positive heathen tolerance will not convert them. And if you look into indian idea sets, they almost all have positive tolerance as tradition. Same with Ottomans. The only reason why they still have converted provinces is because of events. Sometimes if the legitimacy gets low, tolerance does too, and then they start converting

what do you mean? ottomans get +3 heathens. also... i've converted everything to sunni by now, even protestant (some 15-20 days per province).

why on earth would AI have 50% of empire unconverted? missionaries on hiatus? i don't understand church logic...

also, that's weird... ottomans just started converting now, in 1675... zeta and corfu converted as well (1979), edirne (1982). maybe because i've reduced their size enough now to decrease their religious unity to the point of near-rebellion? why would AI not convert pro-actively to prevent this problem? ;\

right as i typed that, the rebel stacks started popping, during their war with brandenburg/achen, lmao.
 
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Promanco

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IMO those are credible great powers in India if we remove the Mughal Empire.
They are the ones that start out in control of the core areas that was/can be used for the rise of great empires.
  • Jaunpur may not have lasted long but given the extremely nice lands they controlled in 1444 they would have had lots of things speaking for them if they had survived their infancy (this is after all one of the fought over regions in the "CK2 era" as well as the core of the Delhi Sultanate and later Mughal Empire). :)
  • Delhi being able to recover like they did under the Lodis was not the most obvious development in 1444 (as anyone can see in game too).
  • Malwa being strong initially and then collapsing is historical and is made likely by their actual in game position so I'm more than happy with that and it doesn't always happen.
  • Gujarat, the arch rival of Malwa, did really well until the Mughals came along, later on it's not an insignficant part of the domain of one of the Maratha states.
    Bengal was used as a base to conquer all of northern India by Sher Shah Suri and was one of the stronger Mughal successor states later (and indeed was the seed of British domination of India eventually).
  • Vijayanagar and Bahmanis both being quite strong is also historical, what doesn't happen is that they should both splinter (and for similar reasons) into a number of successor states. This is mostly down to empires being more stable in EU4 than in history but we could nudge things along a bit more there. Note though that the later Hyderabad state and Mysore states are not that far off from VIJ and BAH really if you look at controlled territory (less true of Mysore than Hyderabad).
  • India is indeed dominated by Muslim states in the north, but that's not really an odd thing given our start date. Muslims have been in control for quite a while there in 1444 and even if we have plenty of states collapsing there historically (even to Hindu nobles like how most of Malwa broke off) the Muslim states continued to dominate up until the Mughals conquered them all. Bengal even had a Hindu vizier seizing power a while before the game starts but still ended up with the Muslim aristocracy getting their power back (the way this happened is what the event that can convert Hindu Sultanates is loosely modeled after).
  • That said I do see Mewar and Orissa do well from time to time, which I think is fine as they're both credible alternatives (Orissa is perhaps less likely but around our start date Kapilendra was really doing well for himself).

Conversions I'm less happy about but it's something that's pretty easy to do worldwide and this is just one of the places where it shows. If southern India (even the Muslim controlled parts) stay more Hindu then that's actually another point for history as while even in the north conversions where not a big thing Muslims where even more in minority in the south.

Sikhs are a very nice addition to this region but a strong Sikh state is a very lategame development in game terms and those are always tricky to get to happen. Sikhism already converts a lot more provinces than would be historical (province you'd likely not have a single province with Sikh majority if going by history, even within the later Sikh state). A strong Sikh state would be nice but given that they're supposed to pop up right in the way of Mughal or Afghan invasions I know what I'd prioritize if I had to choose for the sake of the big picture.

Where I think things could improve is the things that really changed midgame or lategame:
I'd love to see the Mughals and the Marathas more often (and I don't believe one would have to exist for the other to be born).
Give this man a raise.
Wouldnt giving Hindus a -1 or -2% Local Missionary Strength solve the problem? Making it harder for the Sultanates to convert them, and give Sikhs a 1 or 2% Heretic Missionary Strength to compensate and boom problem solve.(It would be harder to convert India to Buddhism tho, whatever that achievement was too easy ;) )
 
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grommile

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why on earth would AI have 50% of empire unconverted? missionaries on hiatus? i don't understand church logic...
The AI generally only sends missionaries to provinces it doesn't have positive tolerance towards, presumably because missionaries can cause revolts and the AI is worse at handling revolts than the player. Due to NIs, the Ottomans will only have negative tolerance of heathens in the very early game, or when they have low Legitimacy.
 

Beanicus

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I think Bahmanis - Vijayaganar could do with being tweaked a bit so Vijay was a more equal challenge. Bahmanis tends to have the upper hand far too often due to its alliance chains. Once Vijay and Orissa are out of the way then a few sultanates usually carve up India no problem. Guess you could try and make it more likely that the hindus club together so there's a more interesting dynamic.
 

FleetingRain

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Give this man a raise.
Wouldnt giving Hindus a -1 or -2% Local Missionary Strength solve the problem? Making it harder for the Sultanates to convert them, and give Sikhs a 1 or 2% Heretic Missionary Strength to compensate and boom problem solve.(It would be harder to convert India to Buddhism tho, whatever that achievement was too easy ;) )

...Yeah, why don't they have it already? I mean, they're all restricted to the Indian subcontinent and it's not like the Sultanates had any ease in converting them.
 

Will Steel

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Mewar came really close to dominate all north India in 1526 historically. They were one step away from annexing Delhi, had a military genius warmonger as their king (Rana Sangram Singh), had reunited Rajputana into a powerful confederation as well as bashed Malwa and Gujarat to the point they were scared of attacking Mewar, and the internal threats were minimized. In a few years they were about to form a large-scale empire in northern India who would then become mostly undefeatable.

...And then enter the Mughals in 1527, the huge Battle of Khanwa happens, their godly king is assassinated, their kingdom disintegrates back to core lands, a wretch is put on the throne, disloyalty runs everywhere and within a few years their capital fortress is sacked.

They remained prestigious as ever, but never recovered their power to the level of 1526. Their ambitions to rule India was eventually fulfilled by Mughals.
 

TheMeInTeam

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The AI generally only sends missionaries to provinces it doesn't have positive tolerance towards, presumably because missionaries can cause revolts and the AI is worse at handling revolts than the player. Due to NIs, the Ottomans will only have negative tolerance of heathens in the very early game, or when they have low Legitimacy.

Any nation with heathen tolerance NI + humanist (which Ottomans still take often) will never, ever convert a heathen province. For the Ottomans they'd have 100% unity and at least 2 tolerance of heathens even with a legitimacy value of 0, once completing humanist. Only early on is it common to see them converting a few provinces.

I've only seen Maratha once, and that was in someone else's AAR in about 1.6 or 1.7.

Many patches ago I found & posted a way to engineer them appearing very early by starting as Vijay and using nationalist rebels. Back then, rebels would create cores on occupying a province, so you could create Marathi cores, have the rebels get cleaned up, then release/play as vassal. I suppose you could instead do it now by inciting rebels there, accepting, and doing a truce-break full annex --> release. The resulting coalition should even shake you loose pretty fast :p.