Do something, anything for the AI in the 867 start date - even by giving the AI the ability to outright cheat!

[AlipheeseXV]

Well, well.

After playing many games in the 867 start date with the 1.4.X updates, where I first believed nothing changed for the AI, I slowly changed my mind... up to the point that I really have to pity the AI!
Like seriously, pdox, what is your goal with the 867 start date!?
As it is now, I can start as a count and in like 2/3 of the starting locations on the map have an empire around the year 900... and then end the game, as aside from the byzantine Empire like no threat at all is left! Not even crusades as how "dumb" the crusade AI is.
Before the 1.4.X updates the AI managed to create at least some threatening realms:
- Have a Muwalladi Hispania? No chance now. Muwalladi may still spread, but only due to all the Ummayyad Lords ally each other
- Have Francia form? Was like 50% before 1.4.X, now I've seen it once, thats all
- Have at least a Germania as Empire? No chance in hell with all the pressure going on in that region
- Have a Scandinavia by the AI? Also no chance in hell
The current state of the game in the 867 start date is: "I want to be an independent count!!!111elf"
That's it.
Aside from the Byzantine Empire with in built Promigeniture and to some degree the Abbasids (Arabian Empire), nothing will be built... not even medium sized Kingdoms, as vassals in any newly formed AI Kingdoms just want their independence or at least do some "King/Queen Roulette" until the kingdom collapses...

So, pdox, I question you: What is your goal with the 867 start date?

I personally love the 867 start date for two things:
- I like to form something as independent count/duke and not have to start inside of Kindoms/Empires
- I like to revive "old things", like Hellenic Roman Empire, which the 867 start date fits much, much more
But with the poor, like really poor handling of the AI and realms ever since the 1.4.X updates, like mentioned above, almost nothing forms and most already formed realms will sooner then later crumble.
So, buff the AI in the 867 start date!
I don't even care if you enable the AI to outright cheat - as long as the AI will finally be able to create and most importantly "hold those created realms together"!

 

[Deshiba]

Giving the AI an opinion Bonus would make it have better outcomes in managing a realm. Would it be “inherently” better? Maybe not, if you like. But who cares? Of course, you are right that Bonuses like this would only work when they exist. The truth is other posters are right when they say that having lots of empires form is pretty ahistorical. Which is why it’s perfect for a game/Difficulty setting that could make the game more fun for people who want it to play out that way.

On the holy wars, I agree that giving holy war defenders advantages doesn’t make it more likely for large empires to form. I still think it is a good idea, separately. Holy wars are too powerful.

Giving a bonus on hard mode doesn't fix the game for regular or easy mode. That's just a quick and dirty solution that doesn't inherently fix the problem. Now I don't have an answer for who cares, but I do have one for the question "who should care?". Which is everyone. Everyone should care about behavior that breaks in a patch getting fixed in an inherent way for everyone instead of dirty fixed with an opinion bonus or malus depending on difficulty. When all the bugs introduced by patches get fixed in the dirty way the game will break massively.

I do not understand the - Ahistorical - argument. Sure it's a historical game to some degree, but if the player can conquer half of europe as ireland then history is already out the window. In the end it's not history, it's a game. For the game to remain challenging there has to be opposition. To me this would exist in the form of other empires also forming, because if they don't and just stay segregated then they are just easy pickings for the player.

Holy wars are kinda off-topic for this discussion. They have their own problems.

 

[AlipheeseXV]

Personally, I don't care if "Empires forming" is ahistorical.

But, I at least understand to some degree, that people argue with "historical".

Well, how about:
Give game rules, where I can set "AI realms on kingdom/empire size are more stable" so the AI is "less likely to form factions" in those realms?

 

[MatthewP]

Giving a bonus on hard mode doesn't fix the game for regular or easy mode. That's just a quick and dirty solution that doesn't inherently fix the problem. Now I don't have an answer for who cares, but I do have one for the question "who should care?". Which is everyone. Everyone should care about behavior that breaks in a patch getting fixed in an inherent way for everyone instead of dirty fixed with an opinion bonus or malus depending on difficulty. When all the bugs introduced by patches get fixed in the dirty way the game will break massively.

I do not understand the - Ahistorical - argument. Sure it's a historical game to some degree, but if the player can conquer half of europe as ireland then history is already out the window. In the end it's not history, it's a game. For the game to remain challenging there has to be opposition. To me this would exist in the form of other empires also forming, because if they don't and just stay segregated then they are just easy pickings for the player.

Holy wars are kinda off-topic for this discussion. They have their own problems.

Personally, I don't care if "Empires forming" is ahistorical.

But, I at least understand to some degree, that people argue with "historical".

Well, how about:
Give game rules, where I can set "AI realms on kingdom/empire size are more stable" so the AI is "less likely to form factions" in those realms?

Sure, we don’t have to call the setting a difficulty setting. There can just be a game setting where the AI gets bonuses making realms more stable.

if there is a consensus that this ought to be the default setting, of course you could add the bonus in vanilla. Not sure it that’s the case. I don’t care a ton personally.

 

[T86]

I think the problem is that the AI is not even trying to keep their (de-jure) realm together. they must have other priorities.

iam watching as king of england right now west francia, which i support by giving them money and marrying daughters for alliance if they would need help.
it was a 867 startdate and ofcourse francia split up in aquitane and loose duchys.

this guy is not even trying to vassalize his dejure duchys although he is strong and has a load of money. nothing. just sitting there, for generations leaving the realm split.

he is not even having troubles with factions as far as i can tell. he is a strong king but he obviously just hasnt got the intention to form or to keep the realm together.


same a hundred years later. i conquered eastfrancia, made it independent and made sure this guys stays on the throne. after a unlucky succession my realm inherited a duchy of eastfrancia which i then made independent again .... There is just no intend that the king of east francia is trying to integrate this duchy again. he just doesnt care.

 

[AlipheeseXV]

I think the problem is that the AI is not even trying to keep their (de-jure) realm together. they must have other priorities.

iam watching as king of england right now west francia, which i support by giving them money and marrying daughters for alliance if they would need help.
it was a 867 startdate and ofcourse francia split up in aquitane and loose duchys.

this guy is not even trying to vassalize his dejure duchys although he is strong and has a load of money. nothing. just sitting there, for generations leaving the realm split.

he is not even having troubles with factions as far as i can tell. he is a strong king but he obviously just hasnt got the intention to form or to keep the realm together.


same a hundred years later. i conquered eastfrancia, made it independent and made sure this guys stays on the throne. after a unlucky succession my realm inherited a duchy of eastfrancia which i then made independent again .... There is just no intend that the king of east francia is trying to integrate this duchy again. he just doesnt care.

The AI is very good in "randomly" conquering just something with hilarious CB's:
- AI wants a single county? Waste the once-in-a-lifetime holy war for a kingdom.
- AI wants a kingdom for a change? Do it as a count with a whole bunch of allies and loose it immedately afterwards to rebels.
De-Jure land is only conquered by chance. And even then the AI waits for... what? Seen it a few times that a Norse Duke conquered all of Ireland and when checking him out, seeing he has more then enough gold to form the kingdom of ireland... but doesn't do so and have his new duchies all split up for his 4 sons after his death.

 

[InsidiousMage]

De-Jure land is only conquered by chance. And even then the AI waits for... what? Seen it a few times that a Norse Duke conquered all of Ireland and when checking him out, seeing he has more then enough gold to form the kingdom of ireland... but doesn't do so and have his new duchies all split up for his 4 sons after his death.

There are some titles that have additional requirements for the AI to meet if they are going to create the title. The AI needs to part of the Goidelic culture group in order for them to create Ireland with a similar specific culture requirement applying to a bunch of other kingdoms as well. Other types of requirements include being Christian to form the Northern Iberian kingdoms, among several others. These kingdoms will still be created by Confederation Partition from my understanding but the AI will only create them if they meet the requirements. Kind of dumb in my opinion but it is what it is right now.

 

[T86]

@AlipheeseXV

yes, as said ... it seems that they have weird priorities of what to achieve, and as @InsidiousMage said they might be hindered by some requirements but still i think you could tweak the AI without cheating by prioritising more things that form and/or keep the realm more stable.

prioritize in first place to create and form a higher tier title. Custom or not.
deprioritize the urge to get indepentent if you are de jure vassal. it makes no sense without a very justified reason.
it makes more sense for dejure vassals to keep authority low though or to get someone else on the throne.

 

[T86]

here for example:

what is this guy waiting for to attack/vassalize Swabia/Schwaben.



after i took the picture he is now in an ally war. Another problem came apparent: they cant handle big armies, It seems they just raise what they got. Even for the smallest wars they will raise whole of the army with all levies when MAA would be more than enough.
He is running around for years with -60 gold to support an ally in spain where the opponent hasnt even a quarter of troops with his allys combined.

ps: he just got broke and is in minus with gold. although in his defence he vassalised swabia at least.

i will try to babysit him further and see if he can form the HRE or Germania

 

[Deshiba]

here for example:

View attachment 747371

what is this guy waiting for to attack/vassalize Swabia/Schwaben.



after i took the picture he is now in an ally war. Another problem came apparent: they cant handle big armies, It seems they just raise what they got. Even for the smallest wars they will raise whole of the army with all levies when MAA would be more than enough.
He is running around for years with -60 gold to support an ally in spain where the opponent hasnt even a quarter of troops with his allys combined.

ps: he just got broke and is in minus with gold. although in his defence he vassalised swabia at least.

i will try to babysit him further and see if he can form the HRE or Germania

I feel like the HRE states aren't even the biggest offenders.

At least at 867 start-date the empire Frankia just doesn't form. Owning both france and Aquitaine and having 2-3 times the amount of troops that Brittany has, it would be super easy to just conquer and form the empire. The AI will just never do this ever, resulting in either norse, british or italian invasions of counties and dukedoms and the eventual descent of aquitaine.

Similar things happen in spain and Italy in 867. Aside from the occasional appearance of Germany and the pre-existing byzantine empire there's never really any major powers that form empires to counteract what the player is doing. Let go of the BuT tHaT's NoT hIsToRiCaL argument, because I've just formed the british empire in a single rulers lifespan and history is already screwed here. Just have the AI respond to what the player does and form some damned empires already.

 

[AlipheeseXV]

There are some titles that have additional requirements for the AI to meet if they are going to create the title. The AI needs to part of the Goidelic culture group in order for them to create Ireland with a similar specific culture requirement applying to a bunch of other kingdoms as well. Other types of requirements include being Christian to form the Northern Iberian kingdoms, among several others. These kingdoms will still be created by Confederation Partition from my understanding but the AI will only create them if they meet the requirements. Kind of dumb in my opinion but it is what it is right now.

Sorry, never seen this, only ever think about how dumb it is to have to be christian to form Jerusalem.
As the AI struggles enough already, such additional requirements just mean, the AI will have to fight more of those "xy is not his/her right liege as he/she wants xy to hold the title of [insert kingdom title here]" modifiers.

On the other side, I always play with custom kingdoms on - so said duke from my example could had easiely united all those irish duchies with his scandinavian duchy into a single kingdom... but, as nearly always, just nothing happened.

here for example:

View attachment 747371

what is this guy waiting for to attack/vassalize Swabia/Schwaben.



after i took the picture he is now in an ally war. Another problem came apparent: they cant handle big armies, It seems they just raise what they got. Even for the smallest wars they will raise whole of the army with all levies when MAA would be more than enough.
He is running around for years with -60 gold to support an ally in spain where the opponent hasnt even a quarter of troops with his allys combined.

ps: he just got broke and is in minus with gold. although in his defence he vassalised swabia at least.

i will try to babysit him further and see if he can form the HRE or Germania

Another prime example for "AI going bankrupt cause it raises all troops for like nothing" would be the Abbasids in Arabia for the 867 start date:
Seen it more then enough that a new ruler there came to the throne with only 1 county for himself due to either having a lot of brothers, so everything from duchies, counties, baronies, houses, tables, chairs, pets, even the breathed air got partitioned or due to claiming the throne in the famous faction roulette.
Anyways, those 1 county rulers have no prob to ally themselves with the kingdom of Transoxiana (central asian steppe region), cause some muslim rulers are there and if this kingdom has a liberty war, the Abbasids send there troops on a hilarious trek from maybe egypt if there capital is there to central asia... and just go bankrupt before even reaching there...

I feel like the HRE states aren't even the biggest offenders.

At least at 867 start-date the empire Frankia just doesn't form. Owning both france and Aquitaine and having 2-3 times the amount of troops that Brittany has, it would be super easy to just conquer and form the empire. The AI will just never do this ever, resulting in either norse, british or italian invasions of counties and dukedoms and the eventual descent of aquitaine.

Similar things happen in spain and Italy in 867. Aside from the occasional appearance of Germany and the pre-existing byzantine empire there's never really any major powers that form empires to counteract what the player is doing. Let go of the BuT tHaT's NoT hIsToRiCaL argument, because I've just formed the british empire in a single rulers lifespan and history is already screwed here. Just have the AI respond to what the player does and form some damned empires already.

The "historically empires crumbled" arguments are strong in this forum.

Said it enough already, the AI just wants to be an independent count in 867. Nothing more.
If others are fine with a map were nothing new forms aside from the players realm - fine by me, it's how they like to play.
But then give me, you and others a game rule were we can exclude the AI from the dumb faction roulette or do something else to buff the AI, so we can actually watch as not only the player forms a realm, but also the AI.

 

[Deshiba]

The "historically empires crumbled" arguments are strong in this forum.

Said it enough already, the AI just wants to be an independent count in 867. Nothing more.
If others are fine with a map were nothing new forms aside from the players realm - fine by me, it's how they like to play.
But then give me, you and others a game rule were we can exclude the AI from the dumb faction roulette or do something else to buff the AI, so we can actually watch as not only the player forms a realm, but also the AI.

This made me think about HOI4 with the "non-historical" option. Though that game has focus trees so the structure isn't the same. But if a game option is what it takes to implement a world where spain, france, italy and germany actually get formed when I just made the empire of brittany, I'll take it.