Do ships have any upkeep at all?

[Maizel]

Supplies and fuel stockpiles have been removed from the game. Most of the supply and upkeep is simulated through equipment and the new industrial system through attrition and such.

Ships do not have equipment stockpiles. Is the amount of ships one can operate only limited by how fast you can build them (and maybe naval bases to repair them)?

The IJN, for example were almost always chronically short of oil. But to me it looks like, in the game, they can operate a thousand battleships no problem if they just managed to build them.

The idea of a crumbling Japan, being robbed of all its conquests and resources, still being able to perfectly operate their potentially huge navy raises my eyebrows a little

Am I missing something about the upkeep on ships?

 

[Denkt]

They do need supplies, so you can not keep a large fleet in a smal port.

 

[wright1331]

https://forum.paradoxplaza.com/foru...-mega-thread-post-all-discussion-here.891473/

All your answers can be found in the Megathread on this topic

 

[Maizel]

https://forum.paradoxplaza.com/foru...-mega-thread-post-all-discussion-here.891473/

All your answers can be found in the Megathread on this topic

Thanks for the link.

If you happen to know it though, I would appreciate it if you repeated it here for me. That thread is rather long.

 

[wright1331]

Thanks for the link.

If you happen to know it though, I would appreciate it if you repeated it here for me. That thread is rather long.

Ships will require supplies after they are build, but you are correct that they only need oil to "be built" and not after they are built.
That thread is pretty much a discuss and bitch session on the whole thing.

However, once Japan attacks China the US will eventually embargo them. Meaning that Japan will be in an oil shortage before you can build to many ships. They will still need to secure oil from somewhere else (Dutch east Indies anyone).

On paper it seems like its going to be a major drawback to the game, but we will only know once we can test it out.

 

[Axe99]

Ships (as far as we know so far) don't actually require 'supplies' - but rather ships can only operate effectively out of a port up to that ports 'supply limit'. As long as Japan has large ports (but no oil), it could still operate its entire navy, and it won't cost them (again, as far as we know) a single factory-days worth of effort to do this. Conflating "they need to be under the stacking limit" with "they need supplies" is stretching it a little. They need to be "in supply", but it's a binary condition, not an ongoing industrial cost.

Indeed, the battleships at the start of the game will (at this stage, as far as we know) operate until they are sunk with no cost from an industrial perspective whatsoever. I'm not entirely comfortable with this, but it's the devs decision, and I'm sure the game will still be a lot of fun (even if naval logistics have taken a step backwards in terms of historical plausibility), and it gives modders something to work on early .

Edit:

However, once Japan attacks China the US will eventually embargo them. Meaning that Japan will be in an oil shortage before you can build to many ships. They will still need to secure oil from somewhere else (Dutch east Indies anyone).

The numbers aren't final, but the penalty for not having oil on ship production was only as much as the proportion of oil in the vessel - so a vessel that was 1/4 oil, and 3/4s steel (I think the BBs in WWW were this proportion, but going from a hazy memory, very happy to be corrected) would only be at a 25% production disadvantage even if Japan had no oil, so even with oil in the production process, Japan will have a much easier time of it in terms of operating their fleet.

 

[Maizel]

Ships (as far as we know so far) don't actually require 'supplies' - but rather ships can only operate effectively out of a port up to that ports 'supply limit'. As long as Japan has large ports (but no oil), it could still operate its entire navy, and it won't cost them (again, as far as we know) a single factory-days worth of effort to do this. Conflating "they need to be under the stacking limit" with "they need supplies" is stretching it a little. They need to be "in supply", but it's a binary condition, not an ongoing industrial cost.

Indeed, the battleships at the start of the game will (at this stage, as far as we know) operate until they are sunk with no cost from an industrial perspective whatsoever. I'm not entirely comfortable with this, but it's the devs decision, and I'm sure the game will still be a lot of fun (even if naval logistics have taken a step backwards in terms of historical plausibility), and it gives modders something to work on early .

Yeah. I general, the new industrial system sounds alot more fun than the old one. While the idea of a tank being build with an upfront cost in oil, and having a lifetime supply of fuel afterwards does sound a bit silly, The fact that you need to replace tanks due to attrition with your oil income mullifies me a bit. Even though it does shift the cost a little bit. You can be a big nation and have 50000 tanks, and as long as nothing dies it costs you 0 oil. Lose 500 tanks as a small country, and suddenly you need tons of oil, even though you have 0 tanks that would use that oil.

For ships it feels so weird. The Pacific war will never have to happen, because Japan really doesn't need the oil for her ships, because they are already built. Well, come to think of it, Germany has much less incentive to rush the Caucasus oil fields for their already built tanks either.

I can see this being changed within the first couple of big patches that accompany major DLC.

 

[Director]

As Maizel points out, since Japan does not require fuel for its Navy or Air Force there is of course no reason to worry about an American oil embargo and hence no reason for a Pacific theater in WW2 (save for China). After all, why start a risky major war for resources in the Dutch East Indies when you can magically replace those resources with... nothing? something? fairy dust? Who cares! It's FUN.

So much for realism, eh?

 

[Denkt]

You need to build new ships and without oil you will not be able to build as many new ships.

 

[potski]

Japan does not require fuel for its Navy or Air Force there is of course no reason to worry about an American oil embargo and hence no reason for a Pacific theater in WW2 (save for China). After all, why start a risky major war for resources in the Dutch East Indies when you can magically replace those resources with...

Without oil you are in real difficulty in supplying your forces in China. Your factories need oil to produce replacements/upgrades for tanks, planes and trucks, and your dockyards to produce convoy ships, subs, DD and CL. Without oil you might turn a stalemate in China into a defeat.

If you have already defeated China, and don't intend to fight the Soviet Union, then you don't need the oil. But then you may as well just hit the Exit button and end the game.

 

[Denkt]

My guess is that ships go obsolete very fast in HOI4 compared to real life, so if you can not stay up in modern ships you will lose. Like a single 1944 tech battleship may be more valuable then 5 1940 battleship.

 

[paranoidsteve]

I believe that you will also need oil supplies to repair your ships.....repairs cost the same materials as ship building

 

[Maizel]

I believe that you will also need oil supplies to repair your ships.....repairs cost the same materials as ship building

I don;t think that's right. How will this be handled if it is? There is no ship stockpile. And I doubt a Battleship will be repaired by consuming 12% of a partially built one in the queue.

 

[Denkt]

I believe that you will also need oil supplies to repair your ships.....repairs cost the same materials as ship building

There did you find out about the cost for repairing ships?

 

[Bridger15]

For ships it feels so weird. The Pacific war will never have to happen, because Japan really doesn't need the oil for her ships, because they are already built. Well, come to think of it, Germany has much less incentive to rush the Caucasus oil fields for their already built tanks either.

I can see this being changed within the first couple of big patches that accompany major DLC.

I mean, of course you don't need oil for ships that never get used. When you use your navy, however, it takes some attrition. Is there no oil cost for repairs? That seems like the easiest solution.

Never use your ships? No oil cost.
Use your ships to fight a big battle? They consumed a lot of oil, and now need to be repaired which costs oil. if you don't have the oil, your navy is forever degraded.

I know there is a thing as "army attrition" which I assume is increased by training and combat (and maybe movement?) which requires a steady trickle of infantry and other equipment (depending upon the division makeup). Navies would theoretically require the same kind of thing, but maybe as a general "reapir costs" listed under production.

 

[Maizel]

I mean, of course you don't need oil for ships that never get used. When you use your navy, however, it takes some attrition. Is there no oil cost for repairs?

I don;t think so. There is no stockpile for ships. You will always be building towards completing a ship, not to replenish existing ones.

 

[egslim]

Never use your ships? No oil cost.
Use your ships to fight a big battle? They consumed a lot of oil, and now need to be repaired which costs oil. if you don't have the oil, your navy is forever degraded.

I use my ships to patrol.

As long as they don't meet any opposition, the oil cost is zero.

For attrition/loss-intensive missions the new system is fine. This will generally apply to the Eastern Front.

For low attrition missions, such as naval patrols to maintain naval superiority, the new system doesn't work.

As long as you play Germany, the system will work fine. If you play a major naval power, it's gonna be arcade.

 

[Axe99]

Without oil you are in real difficulty in supplying your forces in China. Your factories need oil to produce replacements/upgrades for tanks, planes and trucks, and your dockyards to produce convoy ships, subs, DD and CL. Without oil you might turn a stalemate in China into a defeat.

If you have already defeated China, and don't intend to fight the Soviet Union, then you don't need the oil. But then you may as well just hit the Exit button and end the game.

The penalty for lacking oil for production looked (going from memory) at no more than a third, even for aircraft (infantry equipment, artillery and a bunch of other stuff doesn't need it at all, appropriately), so Japan will be in a far better strategic situation than they were historically. Given how easily* Daniel seemed to attack China in last week's WWW (where infantry equipment was the main issue, and that's not oil-dependent), I don't see oil being a significant break on China. Japan will lose a few aircraft, but not many, so the extra 'lacking oil' surcharge for replacing them isn't likely to break the bank.

* With all the usual "it's not finalised" caveats, but it's all we've got to go on at the moment.

My guess is that ships go obsolete very fast in HOI4 compared to real life, so if you can not stay up in modern ships you will lose. Like a single 1944 tech battleship may be more valuable then 5 1940 battleship.

This may well be the case, but given the main argument about not including oil is that it's not terribly historically plausible, I'm not sure this point will necessarily help change the minds of people with an interest in historical plausibility .

 

[potski]

The penalty for lacking oil for production looked (going from memory) at no more than a third, even for aircraft (infantry equipment, artillery and a bunch of other stuff doesn't need it at all, appropriately), so Japan will be in a far better strategic situation than they were historically

But what's the penalty if you lack oil, rubber and aluminium?

Given how easily* Daniel seemed to attack China in last week's WWW (where infantry equipment was the main issue, and that's not oil-dependent), I don't see oil being a significant break on China. Japan will lose a few aircraft, but not many, so the extra 'lacking oil' surcharge for replacing them isn't likely to break the bank.

He admitted that the ahistorically early war meant they had only about a third of their equipment. Plus he used a gamey exploit to destroy a third of the Chinese army in a few days. IIRC over 100K losses compared to Japan's 1K.

But that's not the point - Daniel's fighting in 1936 and still able to trade for resources that he needs. If he is still fighting in China when he gets embargoed by the Allies (admittedly unlikely on what we've seen so far), when he should be trying to mechanise his army and improve his air force, and cover himself for a possible naval war, then things look bad. By this stage he will have built more military factories, and probably captured a few, but he won't have the resources necessary to use them efficiently. While still needing to dedicate factories to replace losses in China.

Malaya and DEI look increasingly tempting when you know the UK/Netherlands are occupied in Europe. You need that rubber and oil. Arguments about the supply system don't change that.

 

[Axe99]

But what's the penalty if you lack oil, rubber and aluminium?


He admitted that the ahistorically early war meant they had only about a third of their equipment. Plus he used a gamey exploit to destroy a third of the Chinese army in a few days. IIRC over 100K losses compared to Japan's 1K.

But that's not the point - Daniel's fighting in 1936 and still able to trade for resources that he needs. If he is still fighting in China when he gets embargoed by the Allies (admittedly unlikely on what we've seen so far), when he should be trying to mechanise his army and improve his air force, and cover himself for a possible naval war, then things look bad. By this stage he will have built more military factories, and probably captured a few, but he won't have the resources necessary to use them efficiently. While still needing to dedicate factories to replace losses in China.

Malaya and DEI look increasingly tempting when you know the UK/Netherlands are occupied in Europe. You need that rubber and oil. Arguments about the supply system don't change that.

Aye, I'm not arguing Japan doesn't still face resource shortages, and that these are significant for it's war effort, just that in the context of this thread, because ships (which look to be primarily oil and steel, as far as I've noticed, so rubber and aluminium aren't really a factor) aren't going to have their production times hit overly hard by a lack of oil, the lack of supplies/fuel for ships will lead to a divergence between the challenges a Japanese player faces in-game vis-a-vis those Japan faced historically.