do other empires just not care I am turning people into livestock or nerve stapled slaves?

[Incompetent]

The problem is that Stellaris conflates two distinct concepts from Alpha Centauri:
1. Nerve Stapling: Removing higher brain functions from pops; Punishment for unruly pops; works much more through terror than the physical effect on those who are actually nerve stapled; atrocity
2. Genejack: A genetically designed being without higher brain functions; optimized for work; no atrocity

It's kind of ambiguous what procedure genemodding is supposed to represent in Stellaris. (Similar ethical concerns apply to the "uploading" of synth assimilation.)

It could be some sort of in vitro editing of the next generation, Gattaca-style, which wouldn't necessarily count as an atrocity; the old non-modded pops simply die of old age. However, if that's the story, it happens suspiciously quickly. Also, it's still arguably genocide even if no individual pop is harmed, for the same reason that the Neutering purge is genocide.

If instead it's live gene therapy, applied to existing pops, then it's no more ethical Alpha Centauri's nerve stapling. It's a high-tech lobotomy, done by injecting a virus or something instead of brain surgery, but you are still lobotomizing existing sapient pops. (Incidentally, the science to enable this sort of live gene surgery has advanced dramatically *in the time since Gattaca and Sid Meier's Alpha Centauri were released*, particularly since the development of CRISPR gene editing.)

 

[TrotBot]

It's kind of ambiguous what procedure genemodding is supposed to represent in Stellaris. (Similar ethical concerns apply to the "uploading" of synth assimilation.)

It could be some sort of in vitro editing of the next generation, Gattaca-style, which wouldn't necessarily count as an atrocity; the old non-modded pops simply die of old age. However, if that's the story, it happens suspiciously quickly. Also, it's still arguably genocide even if no individual pop is harmed, for the same reason that the Neutering purge is genocide.

If instead it's live gene therapy, applied to existing pops, then it's no more ethical Alpha Centauri's nerve stapling. It's a high-tech lobotomy, done by injecting a virus or something instead of brain surgery, but you are still lobotomizing existing sapient pops. (Incidentally, the science to enable this sort of live gene surgery has advanced dramatically *in the time since Gattaca and Sid Meier's Alpha Centauri were released*, particularly since the development of CRISPR gene editing.)

It should simply not be an option unless you're a slaver or a xenophobe imo.

 

[Dementor4]

"Nerve Staples" is a term coined by radical anarchists. There is no evidence the mandatory violence prevention inoculations reduce quality of life or impact our free and fair elections. Five hundred and seventeen government agencies have verified the safety and efficacy of these protective and life saving medicines. This thread has been reported to the Information Police for harboring illegal opinions.

 

[SirBlackAxe]

It should simply not be an option unless you're a slaver or a xenophobe imo.

I'd go as far as to say it should be a purge type that functions similarly to assimilation. That attatches reasonable restrictions and opinion penalties, and gives pops a chance to escape.

 

[TrotBot]

I'd go as far as to say it should be a purge type that functions similarly to assimilation. That attatches reasonable restrictions and opinion penalties, and gives pops a chance to escape.

yeah it can be unlocked IF you are a slaver and IF you have the ascension, but not without both, that would work for sure

 

[fusei]

I'd go as far as to say it should be a purge type that functions similarly to assimilation. That attatches reasonable restrictions and opinion penalties, and gives pops a chance to escape.

I thought about this as well, but found some issues that have to be worked out.

1. Currently nerve stapled is a 3 point trait, so can you only nerve staple purge species that have at least 3 points left or should the point cost be removed to be in line with other purge types?

2. There are some traits incompatible with nerve stapled, should pops with these traits be ineligible or should these be removed by the process (what about traits that normally can't be removed like zombie)?

 

[Zagreb 887]

I'm agree that Nerve Stapeld should give more diplomatic penalty, but locking it for slaves or phobes isn't a good Idea. I mean, some empires that aren't phobes or slaves, neither philes or egalitarian could use this trait if it serve their intrest.
Maybe it can give somme ethic shift toward auth.
I like the game being more subtle that the dumb "Good philes vs evil phobes" you can play an empire that dont especialy want the death and doom of others, but isn't neither the most benevolent governement in the Galaxy, or like giving social welfare to nerve stapeld Baol.

 

[Varren]

It's kind of ambiguous what procedure genemodding is supposed to represent in Stellaris. (Similar ethical concerns apply to the "uploading" of synth assimilation.)

It could be some sort of in vitro editing of the next generation, Gattaca-style, which wouldn't necessarily count as an atrocity; the old non-modded pops simply die of old age. However, if that's the story, it happens suspiciously quickly. Also, it's still arguably genocide even if no individual pop is harmed, for the same reason that the Neutering purge is genocide.

If instead it's live gene therapy, applied to existing pops, then it's no more ethical Alpha Centauri's nerve stapling. It's a high-tech lobotomy, done by injecting a virus or something instead of brain surgery, but you are still lobotomizing existing sapient pops. (Incidentally, the science to enable this sort of live gene surgery has advanced dramatically *in the time since Gattaca and Sid Meier's Alpha Centauri were released*, particularly since the development of CRISPR gene editing.)

Nerve stapling is just the most obvious weirdness here. Even the most benevolent genemods involve the government forcibly rewriting the DNA of large swaths of the populace, which modern human society would consider abhorrent (to say nothing of how a Fanatical Egalitarian empire would react).

 

[Dementor4]

Nerve stapling is just the most obvious weirdness here. Even the most benevolent genemods involve the government forcibly rewriting the DNA of large swaths of the populace, which modern human society would consider abhorrent (to say nothing of how a Fanatical Egalitarian empire would react).

Egalitarianism isn't the ethos of "keep your government off my body". The old individualist ethos was, and egalitarianism inherited some of its game features, but as long as nerve staples are applied regardless of class they should have no issue with it. For example, using temporary nerve staples on an entire planet to eliminate a problematic faction should be totally acceptable to them.

 

[HFY]

but as long as nerve staples are applied regardless of class they should have no issue with it.

"We're locking you into Worker stratum. But this applies to all classes. It's just that we're only applying it to you, who will always be the lowest class."

 

[Dementor4]

"We're locking you into Worker stratum. But this applies to all classes. It's just that we're only applying it to you, who will always be the lowest class."

In the example given the entire planet (leaders, specialists, everyone) gets stapled for a few months so everyone can forget the horrible xenophobic authoritarian culture they grew up with. Then the staples come off and they emerge clean slates into the liberal egalitarian paradise. From a purely egalitarian perspective there should be no issues with this

 

[taltamir]

For allowing slavery there is a -10 opinion modifier if the empire is egalitarian or xenophile (-20 if fanatic).

For using livestock there is a -25 opinion modifier if the empire is neither authoritarian nor xenophobe and another -25 opinion modifier if they are xenophile.

doesn't purging (extermination) give you a stacking -50 * X per pop purged or something? (edit: it varies from -5 to -25 depending on ethics of AI empire)

I remember playing fanatic purifier and pretty soon everyone had a -1000 relationship with me (max it can go down to)

"We're locking you into Worker stratum. But this applies to all classes. It's just that we're only applying it to you, who will always be the lowest class."

It is more of "we are cutting off pieces of your brain until the only thing you could do is simple physical labor."
although it is rather weird that politician requires more brainpower than a scientist, and operating a nuclear reactor takes less brainpower than making shoes

1. Currently nerve stapled is a 3 point trait, so can you only nerve staple purge species that have at least 3 points left or should the point cost be removed to be in line with other purge types?

The point cost is ridiculous. It is literally just a lobotomy, why does it cost points? it is a negative trait.
Part of the issue is how crippling it is. it does not turn them into the meat equivalent of shackled AI. it turns them into the meat equivalent of robots (not even droids. because droids are non sapients who can work specialist jobs. But nerve stapled cannot)

 

[taltamir]

particularly since the development of CRISPR gene editing.)

finding not development. humans found CRISPR. which is a naturally occurring gene modding toolkit we found just lying around in certain bacteria

 

[HFY]

In the example given the entire planet (leaders, specialists, everyone) gets stapled for a few months so everyone can forget the horrible xenophobic authoritarian culture they grew up with. Then the staples come off and they emerge clean slates into the liberal egalitarian paradise. From a purely egalitarian perspective there should be no issues with this

Oh you mean SMAC nerve stapling, yeah that's indeed different.

Maybe it's anti-egalitarian if only the angry Drones got nerve stapled?

although it is rather weird that politician requires more brainpower than a scientist, and operating a nuclear reactor takes less brainpower than making shoes

CG aren't shoes -- slaves wear whatever shoes their work requires even at 0 CG income.

In the game CG are used for scientific equipment, medical equipment, pharmaceuticals (Chemical Bliss lifestyle), and so on. It's a weird category name but it includes high-precision instruments and advanced chemicals.

 

[taltamir]

CG aren't shoes -- slaves wear whatever shoes their work requires even at 0 CG income.

In the game CG are used for scientific equipment, medical equipment, pharmaceuticals (Chemical Bliss lifestyle), and so on. It's a weird category name but it includes high-precision instruments and advanced chemicals.

CG are also required by pop at large, not only by scientists. in fact with good living conditions even slaves can get consumer goods.
Besides even if it was scientific equipment, making microscopes and computers should not be more difficult than operating a nuclear reactor.

 

[HFY]

CG are also required by pop at large, not only by scientists. in fact with good living conditions even slaves can get consumer goods.
Besides even if it was scientific equipment, making microscopes and computers should not be more difficult than operating a nuclear reactor.

Maybe it's something like:

- Technicians trust their instruments and respond to reported values.
- Artisans create trustworthy instruments and ensure that their reported values are within tolerances.

 

[ZomgK3tchup]

This is a combination of two issues:

1. Stellaris empires have a high tolerance for genocide. You can get away with a lot of egregious stuff without even a strongly worded letter from the most self-righteous xenophiles.

2. You can genemod billions of people into whatever you want and they just go along with it regardless of outcome. This is fine when the genemods are strictly beneficial, but it gets weird for stuff like nerve-stapling.

I’m sure the cynics are lining up to tell me how “realistic” these two things are, but there should definitely be more pushback, internally and externally, against this kind of stuff.

 

[taltamir]

This is a combination of two issues:

1. Stellaris empires have a high tolerance for genocide. You can get away with a lot of egregious stuff without even a strongly worded letter from the most self-righteous xenophiles.

2. You can genemod billions of people into whatever you want and they just go along with it regardless of outcome.

I’m sure the cynics are lining up to tell me how “realistic” these two things are, but there should definitely be more pushback, internally and externally, against this kind of stuff.

Good point on number 2. You need to pay a unity cost to resettle a free pop, but can freely genemod them into whatever.

On point 1 though it is less of a shocking tolerance and more of an inconsistent implementation.

Certain kinds of genocide gets massive pushback in stellaris.
World cracking (even cracking your own worlds) is an atrocity that gives you -500 with your allies and -1000 with your enemies / bleeding hearts.
Purging gives you -50 * pops purged. (barring exceptions like hivemind captives)

Other forms of genocide go completely unnoticed.

 

[fusei]

doesn't purging give you a stacking -50 * X per pop purged or something?
I remember playing fanatic purifier and pretty soon everyone had a -1000 relationship with me (max it can go down to)

You get the -1000 for free just for being a fantic purifier.

For purging the base is -5 per pop purged for non-gestalts and goes up to -20 per pop purged for combinations of egalitarian and xenophile. You also get -25 per pop if you purge an empires main species.

 

[taltamir]

You get the -1000 for free just for being a fantic purifier.

For purging the base is -5 per pop purged for non-gestalts and goes up to -20 per pop purged for combinations of egalitarian and xenophile. You also get -25 per pop if you purge an empires main species.

thank you for clarifying. I must have added a 0 there by accident.
Well, per pop cost vs tiny one time flat cost makes nerve stapling very appealing in comparison to purging.
Of course mechanical assimilation is best. I can just turn all the filthy xenos into more of my main race, mechanically engineered to perfection.