Do not repeat Imperator's folly with new Traditions

[Shadowstrike]

Even +% could be okay, look at EUIV. -25% coring cost, +33% national manpower, etc. - bonuses are significant. You can feel the impact. +5% worker output could be felt in retrospect maybe after game will end...and only if you would dig into that for some reason.
There shouldn't be a choice between +5% slave output and +5% amenities or -5% housing need but sbetween, for example, being able to buid Mega Forges, +1 to strategic resources output, unlocking powerful espionage actions, having intel(or something else) with empires you have trade agreement with. Unlocking some actions while locking others as a tradeoff. Something unique.

The difference is that it's hard to stack modifiers in EU4. There aren't very many things that give coring cost reduction (other than taking Administrative), and many things that give manpower (other than Quantity). All the things that tend to do that are either nation-specific, or religion-specific, and aren't available to everyone. If coring cost reduction was prevalent in a bunch of different idea groups, you'd have the same issues.

 

[BrokenSky]

Agreed. I tend to play with mods which add a slew of tradition tree options (you can still unlock them all in theory, but the game will be over long before you actually do so you're still making a choice really).
If we look through some of those for ideas (plus a few of my own) there are things like:
* Unlocking an Extra Civic Slot
* Unlocking new Leader trait options
* Increasing the base yields of jobs (or adding yields)
* Buildings and Starbase modules
* Allowing you to run multiple espionage operations at once
* Unlocking more espionage operations e.g.:
- Spreading Propaganda to support one of your ethics (manipulation/government)
- Support Criminal Underground (sabotage/economy)
- Subversive Take-over (As a Megacorp, targeting another Megacorp to try to take over a branch office - subterfuge/economy)
- Military Disinformation (create 'phantom fleets' to mislead the enemy about Fleet movements - yes I'm totally stealing this one from WW2 - manipulation/military)
* New Diplomatic actions e.g. the ability to assign an envoy to improve relations between two empires both of whom you have good relations with
* Increasing the number of favors you can have / other empires can have of yours
* Gaining the ability to do a 'prospecting' decision on uninhabited planets without yields to have a chance of gaining a yield.
* Alternatively, gaining the ability to re-survey systems to attempt to find additional anomalies

 

[Jordedude1234]

Please Paradox, make them distinct as well as viable, as monumental an effort as that is. I think the earlier you share the new Tradition Trees (once they're actually presentable, of course) the sooner you will be able to get crucial feedback and suggestions.

 

[GOLANX]

Shameless plug:

New Traditions, a rework of the system for a greater diversity of gameplay

I would take traditions and create categories based on the ones we have, you have Expansion category, Prosperity Category, Military Category, Diplomacy Category, and a Miscellaneous category also you have set traditions based on your Ethics, and...

forum.paradoxplaza.com

Although I went light on the details my goal was very much in keeping with many of the ideas shared in this thread, each Tradition should add something unique to your empire. For example instead of having 1 military tradition as we do now, you would have multiple that build into different strategies for warfare. If you pick a quantity over Quality tradition you will be able to build a lot of Ships that are quick and cheap, but are also rather weak, if you instead go for Quality over Quantity you will find ships are expensive and slow to build, but you get whole new sections with more slots and more advanced slots making individual ships powerhouses.

 

[Ex Mudder]

They need to do trees based on the Ethics and make them mutually exclusive. Ex. if you pick the xenophobe tree (purity) you can't pick the xenophile tree (diplomacy).

I like this idea, as it allows you to flesh out the Ethics more completely, and make Spiriualists more viable. I'd also like see tradition trees tied to the various government types and civics. But that would require deciding what happens when an Empire changes civics, government authority, or ethics.

I would love to be able to pick up a tree that lets me pacify Crystals and Amoebas, for example, without having to actually BE Xenophile or pacifist. Or a Materialist one that allows me to hack and take over control of Mining drones. And a Spiritualist one for Void Clouds.

 

[Limbojack]

they are just lazy

They are just lazy.*

What a lazy answer.

 

[Ferrus Animus]

Most bonuses being just a few extra boring percentages is an issue Stellaris has always had.
Those kinds of bonuses are rather quick to make and roughly balance, compared to something more unique, which for a small development team like Stellaris has with always looming deadlines is much more economical.

 

[grommile]

Each tradition should be designed around unlocking a new game style in the game IMO.

Assuming that for each valid combination of ethea, there are ten permissible traditions of which you pick seven, this creates 120 possible combinations just for a single starting build. (There will, of course, be sizeable overlap in e.g. the options available to FanMat Phile vs. Mat FanPhile, so that 120 doesn't need to be multiplied by the number of valid ethos combos.)

Some of them will be crap. A few will be niche. Many of them will blur into an unanalysable slurry of probably broadly competitive choices. One of them will probably be accidentally Clearly Superior.

If that 10 becomes 15, 120 becomes 6435.

If that 10 becomes 20, 120 becomes 77520.

Welcome to Combinatorial Hell.

 

[Tech Noir Synth]

We need more traditions like +1 Merchant job per X pops, or +2 Amenities per Synapse Drone which are more than just boring % bonuses and instead have big impact on your game. Some tradition unlocks are huge bonuses and they should be. The whole balance between unity and science is a joke because Science is needed for everything in this game, even unlocking the best Ascension perks in the game. Sadly, a big part of balancing spiritualists vs Materialists is "Spiritualists get more unity and Materialists get more research" which is a huge design flaw given the fact that having more science is always better.

Ironically you even get +1 Ascension perk from research, so any lead that spiritualist might have had in terms of Ascension perks is easily negated by those who focus on science over unity. There is no reason to even focus on unity at all, you can do just fine going full science rush and maybe consider building 1-2 unity buildings if you feel like it.

And sadly 3.0 made Tech rushing even stronger than it has ever been, in my opinion way too powerful. Science output needs a big nerf across the board, while the traditions rework should add new and interesting traditions with more impact to make these two compare better.

 

[klopkr]

Assuming that for each valid combination of ethea, there are ten permissible traditions of which you pick seven, this creates 120 possible combinations just for a single starting build. (There will, of course, be sizeable overlap in e.g. the options available to FanMat Phile vs. Mat FanPhile, so that 120 doesn't need to be multiplied by the number of valid ethos combos.)

Some of them will be crap. A few will be niche. Many of them will blur into an unanalysable slurry of probably broadly competitive choices. One of them will probably be accidentally Clearly Superior.

If that 10 becomes 15, 120 becomes 6435.

If that 10 becomes 20, 120 becomes 77520.

Welcome to Combinatorial Hell.

Sorry I meant each tradition tree should unlock new gameplay. The rest of the traditions in the tree would be thematic.

 

[Morbus Bubbonicus]

Ok here's an example of good approach to traditions as a concept. Expanded traditions mod:

And effects:

Bonuses ae non-trivial, interesting. Of course not all of them but significant part. There are many tradition mods devs could draw inspiration and ideas from, just stay away from +5% to something as a geeral filler for traditions.

 

[Everstill]

Ok here's an example of good approach to traditions as a concept. Expanded traditions mod:

And effects:

Bonuses ae non-trivial, interesting. Of course not all of them but significant part. There are many tradition mods devs could draw inspiration and ideas from, just stay away from +5% to something as a geeral filler for traditions.

You know what is my problem with these Traditions mods....? Is because they don't keep the Theme of TRADITIONS and add a lot of stuff that is not a tradition to a civilization, they treat the tradition trees as if it is an RPG talent tree.

Just look at the mod you linked.

Greed...? Malice...? Perseverance....? Wth if this? The empire is not a person to get a talent of "Perseverance". It should be a tradition that this civilization follows.

Look at the Vanilla game tradition. You have things like Supremacy, Diplomacy, Expansion. This is traditions, customs that your civilization follows. Like this civilization have the tradition of focusing on Military Supremacy, or in the example of the own mod, Individualism.

I hope the Paradox team does not go in the path that these traditions mods go and focus the flavor of the trees like they focused on Vanilla.

 

[grommile]

The empire is not a person to get a talent of "Perseverance". It should be a tradition that this civilization follows.

A cultural fixation on the value of Perseverance as one of the highest possible personal and civic virtues is a perfectly reasonable theme for a Tradition. It could be especially fitting for an empire with the Post-Apocalyptic or Lost Colony origins.

So is Greed, for that matter. Ferengi, anyone?

Malice is a bit more of a stretch, but whatever.

 

[GOLANX]

You know what is my problem with these Traditions mods....? Is because they don't keep the Theme of TRADITIONS and add a lot of stuff that is not a tradition to a civilization, they treat the tradition trees as if it is an RPG talent tree.

Just look at the mod you linked.

Greed...? Malice...? Perseverance....? Wth if this? The empire is not a person to get a talent of "Perseverance". It should be a tradition that this civilization follows.

Look at the Vanilla game tradition. You have things like Supremacy, Diplomacy, Expansion. This is traditions, customs that your civilization follows. Like this civilization have the tradition of focusing on Military Supremacy, or in the example of the own mod, Individualism.

I hope the Paradox team does not go in the path that these traditions mods go and focus the flavor of the trees like they focused on Vanilla.

Supremacy, Diplomacy, Expansion aren't much in the way of traditions either. I can connect each Tradition we have now with an ethic, and that's not a good place to be
Supremacy= Militarist
Diplomacy= Xenophile
Domination= Authoritarian
Harmony= Egalitarian
Discovery= Materialist
Adaptability= Xenophobe
While more of a stretch I could connect Prosperity with pacifism (Pacifist put more effort into economics instead of military) and Expansion with Spirtualism (as expanding the reach of your religion is important)

Traditions are supposed to be about how you do things, rather than what you are doing. Every empire needs to have a military, wide is a thing most empires need to do and that often requires Supremacy, for everyone else you will need Supremacy to help defend yourself. If instead of Supremacy we had multuple Traditions based on how you develop your military then you would have actual Traditions that add flavor to your empire and give the player interesting options rather than, I need to conquer empires X,Y and Z and Supremacy will help me do that.

 

[BrokenSky]

Supremacy, Diplomacy, Expansion aren't much in the way of traditions either. I can connect each Tradition we have now with an ethic, and that's not a good place to be
Supremacy= Militarist
Diplomacy= Xenophile
Domination= Authoritarian
Harmony= Egalitarian
Discovery= Materialist
Adaptability= Xenophobe
While more of a stretch I could connect Prosperity with pacifism (Pacifist put more effort into economics instead of military) and Expansion with Spirtualism (as expanding the reach of your religion is important)

Traditions are supposed to be about how you do things, rather than what you are doing. Every empire needs to have a military, wide is a thing most empires need to do and that often requires Supremacy, for everyone else you will need Supremacy to help defend yourself. If instead of Supremacy we had multuple Traditions based on how you develop your military then you would have actual Traditions that add flavor to your empire and give the player interesting options rather than, I need to conquer empires X,Y and Z and Supremacy will help me do that.

I mean the existing traditions tend to connect directly to single gameplay areas (War, Diplomacy, Science, Economy etc.) which most ethics also do. (Also I would 100% connect prosperity with Pacifism, but I'd probably put Harmony in with Spiritualists for the similar "lets make the empire more stable" thing they have going on.).

 

[BrokenSky]

Also since we're consolidating ideas for the tradition overhaul in this thread, I'm gonna copy in something I wrote on a possible tradition overhaul in the thread 'MORE TRADITIONS PLS !!!' back in December:

[snip]

Some other ideas might be having the trees be longer, with the ascension perk still after unlock +5 traditions, but additionally maybe.. 5 more? traditions? Which would be stronger but wouldn't unlock further ascension perks (so you have a choice between focusing ascension perks or focusing hard in one area for more of that stuff)? This wouldn't be mutually incompatible with adding more (mutually exclusive) trees either, so it might be worth it IMO?

In terms of adding a few more trees, I think:
* split Diplomacy: into Espionage, Federations and (empire-to-empire) Diplomacy
* have the economy ones: Prosperity, Domination (though slightly more focused on non-urban districts) and Trade (pulling the trade ideas out of diplomacy and the merchant from prosperity. Also buff clerks)
* Split Supremacy into: Supremacy (i.e. offence/quality - boosted fire rate, better admirals/generals, improved research speed for military-oriented fields, increased diplomatic weight from fleet), Resilience (i.e. defence - Starbases, Home-territory-fire bonus, garrison buffs, unlock the ability to damage orbiting hostile fleets, economic boosts and reduced war weariness gain while in a defensive war) and Logisitics (quantity - increased naval and fleet caps, cheaper build and maintenance costs, unlock a second starbase building which reduced maintenance, similar to crew quarters)
* and the Science/Culture ones: Discovery (science), Culture (unity and governing ethics attraction - also unlocks a few unique unity ambitions) and Statecraft (Mostly focused on leaders and edicts - Taking the general +1 leader skill from Discovery and the Ruler/Governor bonus from Dominion)
And finally keeping Expansion and Harmony (with a slightly more 'tall' focus, via the inclusion of reduced sprawl from districts replacing the home-territory-fire-bonus) more or less the same but as uncategorized.
The thing is here is the categories; the way I'm thinking, you could only have up to two of the three from each of the four categories (Diplomacy, Military, Economy, Science/Culture) with a total limit of still 7?

 

[GOLANX]

I mean the existing traditions tend to connect directly to single gameplay areas (War, Diplomacy, Science, Economy etc.) which most ethics also do. (Also I would 100% connect prosperity with Pacifism, but I'd probably put Harmony in with Spiritualists for the similar "lets make the empire more stable" thing they have going on.).

I wouldn't say spiritualist neccesarily make an empire stable, Christians had a great schizim, and a Protestant reformation both of which were not peaceful, Islam is divided into Sunni and Shia which to this day people will murder each other over those differences and the Cold war between Saudi Arabia and Iran is created by those divisions. Egalitarians create Stability by giving everyone the feeling that their voices are heard and problems can be solved.
Harmony itself isn't an aspect of all religions (Spiritualism being the application of religion in Governance), but it is an aspect of Egalitarianism that encourages people to live with each other in cooperation, approaching their differences with tolerance, and understanding.

 

[Jman5]

100% agree with OP. All these % modifiers do is encourage playing the game by spreadsheet. You want intuitive and interesting bonuses. You can still have these % modifiers, but they should be secondary bonuses to sweeten the pot.

Everyone can intuit what +1 pop upon colonization gives you. +10% growth rate tradition is much less intuitive. Better than not having it, but how many extra pops does that translate into and when? /spreadsheet away!

 

[DanielPrates]

Ok here's an example of good approach to traditions as a concept. Expanded traditions mod:

And effects:

Bonuses ae non-trivial, interesting. Of course not all of them but significant part. There are many tradition mods devs could draw inspiration and ideas from, just stay away from +5% to something as a geeral filler for traditions.

This is indeed a great mod.

Is it up to date with 3.0.3?

 

[BrokenSky]

I wouldn't say spiritualist neccesarily make an empire stable, Christians had a great schizim, and a Protestant reformation both of which were not peaceful, Islam is divided into Sunni and Shia which to this day people will murder each other over those differences and the Cold war between Saudi Arabia and Iran is created by those divisions. Egalitarians create Stability by giving everyone the feeling that their voices are heard and problems can be solved.
Harmony itself isn't an aspect of all religions (Spiritualism being the application of religion in Governance), but it is an aspect of Egalitarianism that encourages people to live with each other in cooperation, approaching their differences with tolerance, and understanding.

I mean in terms of what the ethic does in gameplay. IRL pacifism doesn't necessarily mean economic development but in game the ethic (and faction specifically) focus a lot on economic development. Based on the pure bonuses though I could also see Pacifist being the new "stability ethic" actually, since it gives stability, pop sprawl cost reduction and happiness via edict. Guess spiritualist doesn't really have that niche anymore (to be fair a lot of my gut instinct on what ethics are and do is based on what they used to do and Spiritualist has been reworked nearly as much as Individualist and Collectivist have).

Egalitarianism no longer gives any stability bonuses (I think at one point it made off-ethic pops less unhappy? -> looked it up - this was removed in 1.5)