Do My Eyes Deceive Me? Is the WETN Truly Gone?

[Olaf the Unsure]

I've been away from EU4 for some time, mostly on a what I thought was a quixotic protest against the silly addition of the Western Europe (aka Atlantis) Trade Node. I finally broke down and bought AoW and fired up a new game, and it was only after playing a bit that I realized the WETN is completely gone! I am weeping tears of pure joy as I type this.

 

[greendevil]

You're not mistaken, the WETN is gone!

That's the reason why I got back to EU IV

Granted, the trade system isn't perfect now. In fact, it has huge flaws (for instance, Venice being dirt poor at the start, with everything ending up at Lubeck and English Channel just because all trade is steered inland from Ragusa; also, prices for goods are completely retarded), but it's definetely better.

 

[Freudia]

also, prices for goods are completely retarded

Honestly, the prices for goods being the way they are is an improvement over the old system. The player couldn't really mess with the supply/demand system before, and now they definitely can't, but the new system's prices are much more impactful in general. Trade goods that aren't your staple spices/cotton/tobacco actually matter now, which is nice.

 

[Junuxx]

The player couldn't really mess with the supply/demand system before\

I guess you never tried putting 1 infantry regiment on every grain province in the world.

 

[AureliusBob]

the WETN is indeed gone

however, it has been replaced by the Portugal trade node which covers North and South America

 

[bjorn0100]

What exactly was wrong with its existence? I never was smart when it came to the trade in this game, but I never saw a problem with it. Frankly, its random existence entertained me.

 

[Freudia]

I guess you never tried putting 1 infantry regiment on every grain province in the world.

You'd be correct. My infantry is usually used invading people, not messing with the grain demand slightly.

 

[greendevil]

Honestly, the prices for goods being the way they are is an improvement over the old system. The player couldn't really mess with the supply/demand system before, and now they definitely can't, but the new system's prices are much more impactful in general. Trade goods that aren't your staple spices/cotton/tobacco actually matter now, which is nice.

But that's exactly why trade should be profitable: bringing exotic goods (spices, cotton, tobacco etc.) to Europe, not moving fish and grain.

Right now the current setting makes "mundane" and common goods way too pricey, thus making all european nodes way too wealthy (and making countries swim in gold right from the start).

That was exactly why in actual history Venice was the wealthiest city in Europe in 1444, because it was the gateway and hub for eastern goods. Now try starting a new game and you'll see that Lubeck is way richer than Venice. I guess that according to Paradox north sea's fish is worth more than eastern silk.

 

[Junuxx]

You'd be correct. My infantry is usually used invading people, not messing with the grain demand slightly.

You could actually increase the price for grain by like a factor 10 if you tried hard enough. I wouldn't call that slightly.

But I agree that the current system is a lot better.

 

[Olaf the Unsure]

What exactly was wrong with its existence? I never was smart when it came to the trade in this game, but I never saw a problem with it. Frankly, its random existence entertained me.

Not to beat a now-thankfully-dead horse, but it always bugged me because, unlike the other trade nodes, it was completely divorced from any adjoining landmass, meaning that the only way to really influence it was to dump ever-increasing fleets of trade ships on it. It was more like a pirate free-for-all in the middle of the ocean than anything resembling trade. The rest of the system, even with its flaws, does a nice job of linking trade to control of the adjoining landmass, and the WETN just seemed like a glaring and unnecessary aberration.

In any event, I'm happy to see it gone.

 

[Freudia]

But that's exactly why trade should be profitable: bringing exotic goods (spices, cotton, tobacco etc.) to Europe, not moving fish and grain.

I was thinking more along the lines of cloths and wines, not grain and fish. Fish in particular routinely gets shafted by multiple events that drop its prices.

Right now the current setting makes "mundane" and common goods way too pricey, thus making all european nodes way too wealthy (and making countries swim in gold right from the start).

But those same 'common goods' have a demand for them. Exotic goods are worth a lot because they're rare; common goods like cloth and wine and whatnot are worth a lot because there's a high demand for them.

That was exactly why in actual history Venice was the wealthiest city in Europe in 1444, because it was the gateway and hub for eastern goods. Now try starting a new game and you'll see that Lubeck is way richer than Venice. I guess that according to Paradox north sea's fish is worth more than eastern silk.

But in-game there's likely not as much trade traveling from the east to Venice, though. A lot of that likely gets stopped in Constantinople and Alexandria by the Ottomans and Mamluks respectively. Lubeck is that rich because of dumb trade propagation causing trade power from nations like England and the Hansa to get sent across the New World before it's even been discovered, which is a different issue and unrelated to the new supply/demand system.

You could actually increase the price for grain by like a factor 10 if you tried hard enough. I wouldn't call that slightly.

But I agree that the current system is a lot better.

By a factor of 10? Huh. That's pretty noticeable. Well I'll stand corrected on it being something the player couldn't interact with. However, the old system required going very out of your way to do anything noticeable to it (and I think you agree on that point), and that's the biggest reason I think the new system is better.

 

[dstarsboy]

Wow, people quit over a trade node? You guys must play this game for no other reason than to trade?

 

[Olaf the Unsure]

Wow, people quit over a trade node? You guys must play this game for no other reason than to trade?

The conquest side of EU4 has never really interested me. I'm more the builder type, and I enjoyed the original trade system. And the new improvements seem like a great step forward.

 

[PiriReis]

Further improvements needed though:
- power propagation should be balanced
- more trade routes
- trade prices balanced

 

[Incompetent]

Not to beat a now-thankfully-dead horse, but it always bugged me because, unlike the other trade nodes, it was completely divorced from any adjoining landmass, meaning that the only way to really influence it was to dump ever-increasing fleets of trade ships on it. It was more like a pirate free-for-all in the middle of the ocean than anything resembling trade. The rest of the system, even with its flaws, does a nice job of linking trade to control of the adjoining landmass, and the WETN just seemed like a glaring and unnecessary aberration.

In any event, I'm happy to see it gone.

I'm happy to see it gone too, but I should point out that the big pile of ships game is still there. It's just that now, the Big Five end node powers (England, France, Netherlands, Portugal and Spain) each dump ships in their home node, and the competition is in the form of propagated trade power in all the feeder nodes. It's an improvement in that the feeder nodes are different for different end nodes, so England, France and the Iberians are encouraged to go for historical areas of colonisation (e.g. Chesapeake for England, Caribbean for Spain), and also thanks to propagation, trade power in the Atlantic end nodes now has enough impact that it makes sense to invest heavily in trade buildings.

Incidentally, when the propagation really becomes overpowered is if a merchant republic like the Hansa takes over one of the big end nodes. Suddenly, there is merchant republic TP everywhere, even places where they don't have any direct presence, and the quantity of goods produced goes through the roof.

 

[balmung60]

You could actually increase the price for grain by like a factor 10 if you tried hard enough. I wouldn't call that slightly.

But I agree that the current system is a lot better.

How could you get a 10X increase when demand capped at 500% and supply at 200%? Grain was almost consistently in extremely high supply and substantial demand (usually similar to supply if you aren't deliberately messing with the market), so you might get 2 or 3x, but even that seems unlikely given the supply of the stuff.

 

[quicksabre]

I'm happy to see it gone too, but I should point out that the big pile of ships game is still there. It's just that now, the Big Five end node powers (England, France, Netherlands, Portugal and Spain) each dump ships in their home node, and the competition is in the form of propagated trade power in all the feeder nodes.

Power propagation exists to facilitate inland trade, right? And previously, trade in the WETN? Maybe instead of blanket upstream propagation, it should depend on tech or make certain buildings generate it. Or even (this is expansion material, not balance stuff) make mercantilism a sliding scale - mercantilism increases the trade power from provinces, and free trade gives improved upstream propagation!

/speculation

 

[Incompetent]

Power propagation exists to facilitate inland trade, right? And previously, trade in the WETN? Maybe instead of blanket upstream propagation, it should depend on tech or make certain buildings generate it.

I would make all provincial power propagate, but not ship power. If you want your ships to have power upstream, then send them upstream!

Or even (this is expansion material, not balance stuff) make mercantilism a sliding scale - mercantilism increases the trade power from provinces, and free trade gives improved upstream propagation!

This is actually a really good idea.

 

[quicksabre]

I would make all provincial power propagate, but not ship power. If you want your ships to have power upstream, then send them upstream!

That makes sense.

 

[Junuxx]

How could you get a 10X increase when demand capped at 500% and supply at 200%? Grain was almost consistently in extremely high supply and substantial demand (usually similar to supply if you aren't deliberately messing with the market), so you might get 2 or 3x, but even that seems unlikely given the supply of the stuff.

After reading through both wikis and trying to find a quote or screenshot to support what I remembered, I guess this might have only applied to EU3. Having at least 1 regiment in a grain province would reduce "supply" (as in the price-reducing variable but not related to the amount produced, go figure) by 90%. It was unwieldy and exploity, but very high grain prices could be achieved.

I thought these modifiers were kept from EU3, like so many things. Maybe not. Which only illustrates how intransparent the system was; you have to dig through the game's text files to find out.