Do France have chance to be on offensive?

[unmerged(9167)]

What a discussion! I like this thread.

Yeah, you are right. Rommel himself said that the war is all but lose if Germans could not have air superority. With all his genius, he could not win the war long as allies control the sky, and see (and bomb) the division, especially tanks.

 

[TeutonicKnight]

Back to the origianl question. Can France be offensive? I don't believe they can unless the player can forsake all of whats in place at the time. Knowing nothing about the game or its mechanics I would assume that one could actually give Germany a tough time.

If a person could put its research into planes, more specificly fighters, then with a production boost, France could actually give germany a fight in the air and at least gain local superiority at a particular point and time. Throw in the fact that a British/France pact is almost a foregone conclusion it would only compound Germany's problem in the air.

As far as doctrine goes, if it is even included, France would be a nut not to change it, but will the cost be too steep a price in one of those all so familiar hidden costs, that Paradox loves. The guns on French armor and anti-tanks guns are more than capable of taking out German armor, but a French player might want to try and redesighn the tanks so that they can actually be an asset rather than a liability. With air co-ordination they might actually repulse a few attacks.

 

[unmerged(3168)]

I hope that the answer to this question will depend on the scenario being played. If your playing the 1936 one I hope we can make the choices to give France the ability to conduct offensives or go defencive and hold out. If on the other hand your playing the 39 scenario I doubt that you'd be able to do much more with france other than hold on for a few more months. While if your playing the May 1940 scenario as France I think that you'd be called a sadist because you shouldn't have a chance.

 

[unmerged(881)]

Originally posted by Kiith
I hope that the answer to this question will depend on the scenario being played. If your playing the 1936 one I hope we can make the choices to give France the ability to conduct offensives or go defencive and hold out. If on the other hand your playing the 39 scenario I doubt that you'd be able to do much more with france other than hold on for a few more months. While if your playing the May 1940 scenario as France I think that you'd be called a sadist because you shouldn't have a chance.

I suspect that you're right.

It appears that the '36 start and the numerious means at our command to affect the course of our chosen nation should keep the repeats of the actual war to a minimum.

Though I must admit that France is in a tough position even in '36 being a democracy and having Germany next door. I would play France with an eye toward creating a coalition agaisnt Germany (hoping it was more effective than in reality) and a focus in ground and air forces hoping that the British would become my allies against Germany.

 

[unmerged(3168)]

That would be my plan too, and I can't wait to try it in the full game. Just a questions would you increase the size of the French forces or concentrate on making them more efficient (ie doctrine)?

 

[Earl Uhtred]

I'd favour doctrinal efficiency over dumb mass every time.

An interesting strategy would be for France to do whatever it takes to reestablish the pre-WWI mutual protection arrangement with Russia. I don't know how domestic ideology colours your foreign relations but it should be possible, since Stalin half expected such an advance from the Western powers and the lack of one led him to agree to the German-Soviet pact. Of course, this would come at the price of your relations with Britain and the US and your reactionary minor allies in the Balkans.

Masochism, dear boy. That, not sadism's what playing France in '40 would be. (All my gratification comes from nitpicking.)

 

[unmerged(9167)]

Masochism, dear boy. That, not sadism's what playing France in '40 would be. (All my gratification comes from nitpicking.)

Yeah, but you gain the brag right if you win the game as France. Will French AI surrenders immediately when got DoW by another country? Just like real France?

 

[jacob-Lundgren]

a country has 1 bad war and they are forever huanted by it

i really dont see much chance of any major frence offensive without a strong british force helping. in eu2 terms take 2 countries. 1 is stronger in most ways by a little. war starts. one side as better leaders and 90 manpower the other has fewer good leaders and 60 manpower. putting money aside who will win if both are human controlled? france can defend herself possibly but attack? not alone. not when hoi starts. only if ermany starts a war and france is stronger AND brit helps better should they have a chance to beat germany off and possibly invade with no russian aid.


oh ya something france can/should do is stretch the maginot line a little so they know germany must attack through belgium where they want or through the maginot(kinda dumb)

 

[unmerged(5067)]

Ah my friends you are cruel with France...

Basically, we can agree on this:
- if you start in 1936, you can rearrange many things and possibly lead an offensive war, probably not a 'guerre eclair' though
- if you start in 1939 you are in deep s... , your best hope is to keep the Germans at bay for a while

 

[Maximilian I]

Imho, france should be one of the most challenging nations to play and even if you´re playing the `36 scenario, you should have a hard time to defend against germany. simply for gamebalance reasons. the game is over, if france doens`t fall.

 

[unmerged(3168)]

Originally posted by Maximilian I
Imho, france should be one of the most challenging nations to play and even if you´re playing the `36 scenario, you should have a hard time to defend against germany. simply for gamebalance reasons. the game is over, if france doens`t fall.

I'd have to disagree the game wouldn't be over it would just be different to history. If France doesn't fall it should be harder for the USA to interven in Europe. Germans wouldn't be able to attempt an invasion of Russia but thats the beauty of HOI you dont' have to follow history, you can make it

 

[Maximilian I]

good points, but do you also disagree with the "challenging" part of the post? What I wanted to say is, that even a human player should only succeed in about 1 out of 10 games...

 

[unmerged(5067)]

Originally posted by Maximilian I
good points, but do you also disagree with the "challenging" part of the post? What I wanted to say is, that even a human player should only succeed in about 1 out of 10 games...

Well... since not everyone agrees, it seems that in 1936, the Germans' advantage over France was not that overwhelming. It had a comparable population, a comparable economy, and a big ally with the British. France's defeat was not the defeat of its weapons, but of its generals. So, no, I don't agree on this 'challenge' if you start from 36.

 

[unmerged(3168)]

No I'd agree about it being challenging, France and Japan I'd see as the most challenging and interesting countries to play. I'd disagree with the 10% chance thing thou because there were so many factors in play that caused the French to go down as quickly as they did.

Even very small changes would give them a few more months ie Plan D? was the worst possible thing to counter the attack Germany executed. All it did was get the best equipped French forces outflanked and even thou most got away their heavy equipment didn't.

I say that if France can make the changes to stop the Germany army they should have to sacrifice something whether that be public opinion (ie descent), the navy (ie trade), diplomacy ect that would be the balance i'd look for. But then again I'm thinking of playing France.

 

[Maximilian I]

Originally posted by Kiith
No I'd agree about it being challenging, France and Japan I'd see as the most challenging and interesting countries to play. I'd disagree with the 10% chance thing thou because there were so many factors in play that caused the French to go down as quickly as they did.

Even very small changes would give them a few more months ie Plan D? was the worst possible thing to counter the attack Germany executed. All it did was get the best equipped French forces outflanked and even thou most got away their heavy equipment didn't.

I say that if France can make the changes to stop the Germany army they should have to sacrifice something whether that be public opinion (ie descent), the navy (ie trade), diplomacy ect that would be the balance i'd look for. But then again I'm thinking of playing France.

I completely agree with you.

 

[unmerged(5067)]

Originally posted by Kiith
No I'd agree about it being challenging, France and Japan I'd see as the most challenging and interesting countries to play. I'd disagree with the 10% chance thing thou because there were so many factors in play that caused the French to go down as quickly as they did.

Now I agree

 

[unmerged(10561)]

I think the main obstacle for France is its political system. Having to change Cabinet every 6 month didn't allow them to make any real change in their military policy. And such, it should be very difficult to create for example just a simple motorized division.
An other consideration is Weygand (and his staff). The man was head of the Army without ever command any operational unit. He always was the second of somebody, and proove in time to have a total lack of imagination.
The whole system was base on the unvulnerability of France behind the Maginot line.
If you just consider numbers of tanks, artillery, etc... their should be no reason why France shouldn't beat Germany very easily as soon as their army is busy somewhere else.
If you now consider that this tanks where totally lost in infantry divisions and such unable to have any effect, that the artillery was mostly fixed on Maginot and some other strat point, with a very limited area of action, you simply have infantry division at ur disposal, and even, those division are composed of non professional, because the fear of an profesionnal corps was still strong in a country where political situation was so unclear.
I don't know how the conceptors of HOI can represent it, but military doctrine should be a limit on troops you build (for example, not be allowed to excess a small percentage of tanks in any area - stocking limits?)
And changing this doctrine should be limited by ur political situation (more the country is liberal, more difficult it is to change anything), with the exception of external event.

PS : please excuse my poor english

 

[Darkrenown]

Originally posted by RONE
I think the main obstacle for France is its political system. Having to change Cabinet every 6 month didn't allow them to make any real change in their military policy.

Woah, its not that often! Elections only come every 4-6 years.

 

[unmerged(9167)]

Also, figure in the "peaceful time" mood of people. I mean, people are like, "no war, never again." Don't forgot about the arrogance, that France is top dog so people are thinking like, "why should we built up military? This is peace time. We are strong enough, not need to expand the military. Beside, Germans will worship us or they will be crushed easily if they try to do something foolish like attacking France." That is the general mood of teh people. HOI should reflects that too.

 

[vertinox]

Originally posted by TeutonicKnight


I have never played this game but I suppose it would be possible given the slowness of the French and British. However, unles there is something hard coded in the game aboutthe capital being the ultimate prize and losing it has severe reprecussions, I would imagine a player would make Germany pay for such a slim narrow supply line.

War in Europe was a hex based game and the supply was determined by total distance from the suppline lines which is rail lines... Which there are allot in the French Belgium area...

Even if you only had one hex open up to 10 hexes and a friendly unit in each you could still get supply through...

But these would have to be full stacked up in strenghtto keep the french from encircling...

4 X 6-5 infantry divisions usually would keep anything the french or brith threw at it at bay...