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Does France have chance to be on offensive?

I am wondering if France do have chance for survival, and if so, then is it possible for France to expand much? I mean, France is in the vulerable area. Germans could easily invade from Belgium. England from North. USA from West. Spain from South. Italy from Southwest. You get the idea. France is not like Germany which could build the buffer countries, and expand in either direction. So it will take time to hit the homeland of Germany while France is right there, no matter much it expands to east and south. Why would expand to south? There is Pyreene protecting France so why give up the defensive line so that make east the only place to go, however, there is Germany and Switzerland in your way.

So my question is that is it possible to survive beyond being solely on defensive?
 
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If France was to not declare war on Germany and have a big economic and military build up early on, then they will have the chance to do something. I wonder if it will force the British and French into war with Germany if Germany attacks Poland?? :confused: I think one of the best parts of HoI is its starting date. It starts as WWII is beginning, but it is also at the perfect time to be able to build up your economy and military, so that history can be changed. France will have several years until its historical war with Germany, so they will have time to build up. It will be interesting to see how France can do.


Meiji-Tenno
 

jacob-Lundgren

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just remember people this is not eu2. no saving byzentum in this game. no uniting germany as hannover. if you start small you will finish or die small in hoi. also france can live if you rush to build the army and airforce and above all else. BUILD SOME KIND OF RESERVE!!!! if you plan on germany breaking through somewhere between the maginot and the coast and position troops right you can possibly survive. though in the long run you will probably have to die for balance.
 

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If Germany is going after Poland then as France I would strike straight at the West. histroically the Germns were paper thin in the West so an attack would stand a good chance of doing well. If the Germans switch troops to the West then your Polish buddies can hold out a bit longer (which is nice) otherwise head for the Rhur and try to cripple the German economy. That should slow them down a bit.
 

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France should be hard to play in the game making it no match for German forces
If France is still in the war by the end of 1940 then Germany has basically lost. France may not be able to build up it's military because it is a democracy and must spend money on keeping the populace happy :D .
Meanwhile Germany can spend 1936-39 having an enormous military buildup and it would at the start in 36 have many more fighting doctrines than France like Blitzkrieg and Armored warfare (which would of course be historically accurate since French fighting doctrines did not use tanks as a seperate fighting force)
Also Germany has much better Generals than france and if who you choose to command your forces could be a major factor in victory depending on how the game is programmed
 

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It is by no means a forgone conclusion that France will fall, nor should it be coded in any way that France fall simply to satisfy balance.

While the French armed forces should, in my view, be arbitrarily weakened to some extent to simulate the effect the Great War had on French society, there is a strong case that can be made that, had the French and British positioned their forces differently, had they not gone into Belgium, for example, maybe France could have held out long enough for either the US to enter the war or for the USSR to finish its build-up and declare war on Germany.
 

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I think that France should be up against it and if you are playing MP as France you should be thinking of going down in a blaze of glory rather than global conquest. That is not to say that the French Player should not be thinking if I wait long enough the Panzer will role over me. One WiF strategy was the conquest of Italy. Stike them while Germany is busy in the East and with Italy's long coast and Anglo-French naval superiority a success there is a possibilty.
 

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France should be hard to play in the game making it no match or at least diffucult to overcome German forces
If France is still in the war by the end of 1940 then Germany has basically lost. France may not be able to build up it's military because it is a democracy and must spend money on keeping the populace happy :D .
Meanwhile Germany can spend 1936-39 having an enormous military buildup and it would at the start in 36 have many more fighting doctrines than France like Blitzkrieg and Armored warfare (which would of course be historically accurate since French fighting doctrines did not use tanks as a seperate fighting force)
Also Germany has much better Generals than france and if who you choose to command your forces turns out to be a major factor in victory depending on how the game is programmed
 

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In reality....

In reality... France did have the largest and best equipped (as far as tank technology goes) divisions of the time... Compare the Char Bis to the top of the line Panzers....

The deployment and strategy was mostly the reason for the French defeat... However even this aside...

If France did not delcare war when Germany invaded Poland... And waited til Germany invaded Russia... Well, I'm sure they could have tried an offensive... Not sure how successful, but it could be a route.
 

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The problem with France was that it was not a mobile army. Its doctrine relied on static defense IE: the Maginot Line. It also had a problem mobilizing its army to strike at Germany when they did invade Poland.

France also lacked the understanding on how to use its better armed tanks against Germany. Had they grouped them into armored divisions, instead of an infantry support unit, then they might have had better luck against Germany. German doctrin prohibited tank vrs tank clashes for the simple fact that allied tanks were typically better gunned and armored. They prefered to lure them into a predetermined anti-tank screen, or bypass and let the infantry and AT divisions role them up.


I do not see France as being a offensive threat unless they spend a lot of time reorganizing and without much information we can't really say how hard or easy that will be.
 

unmerged(1972)

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Historically, France actually sent troops into German territory right after the Germans attacked Poland. Due to political indecision, they were pulled back almost immediately. If they had done a full on offensive, there would've been no way the scrubs the Germans had put on their western border could have held up. Of course they didn't have the blitzkrieg doctrine, but if they had it wouldn't have been impossible for them to reach Berlin before the Germans could disengage in Poland.
I think the reason France will not be able to make use of their not insignificant army, is the political situation. HoI simulates that, so if you go on the offensive, I suspect you'll get the socialists and others starting a revolution.

The most interesting question is, can Germany be successful even though the human player of France knows that they will be coming through the Ardennes. You could put your army in a half circle just waiting for them to emerge, or if you have the money you can extend the Maginot line further.
 

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In that case, it is a question of whether the Maginot Line will hold Gerry. Why not just bomb it to oblivion?
 

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Historically, France actually sent troops into German territory right after the Germans attacked Poland. Due to political indecision, they were pulled back almost immediately. If they had done a full on offensive, there would've been no way the scrubs the Germans had put on their western border could have held up. Of course they didn't have the blitzkrieg doctrine, but if they had it wouldn't have been impossible for them to reach Berlin before the Germans could disengage in Poland.

While they did make a little incursion they did so more as a gesture than an actual threat. The French army of 1940 had very little offensive capability or knowlege of offensive doctrine. French generals had made sure that France would never again suffer war on thier territory as they had in WW1, or so they had hoped. France's indecision to "attack" wasn't because they didn't want too, but more because they couldn't. Thier doctrine was made specificly for defense and to drag Germany into the war of attrition that France, with Britian's help, could have a chance of winning.

The most interesting question is, can Germany be successful even though the human player of France knows that they will be coming through the Ardennes. You could put your army in a half circle just waiting for them to emerge, or if you have the money you can extend the Maginot line further

Yes I believe they can. There are several options I believe that Germany has in her favor. If this game reflects history to some degree then if a French player choses to try and grind Germany down in a semi-defensive circle then Germany could, depending on her alliance status and what has been aquired(territory), could possibly invade through Italy. Germany could go with a more direct approach and paradrop behind French lines causing mass confusion then bang in. This would of course cause more casualties than actually experienced by Germany.

Germany could attack France first instead of Poland and see if Poland actually reacts, or maybe Russia makes good on the German pact and invades Poland drawing attention away from Germany.


If the French extend the Maginot line then paradrop behind and do an EBManuel (SP) type raid into the many many individual fortresses while keeping the remaining one's busy via bombing/arty dualing. The Maginot had little or no airdefense capability. However, by spending time and money in expanding the Maginot line, if it can actually be done, then they would probably lose the inatiative to reorganise themselves into a more mobile and fexible force.
 

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Originally posted by TeutonicKnight
However, by spending time and money in expanding the Maginot line, if it can actually be done, then they would probably lose the inatiative to reorganise themselves into a more mobile and fexible force.

France shouldn't be free to just extend the Maginot Line, however. IIRC, part of the reason they didn't extend it to the sea as planned was the political ramifications of building fortifications on the Belgian border. Also, it would have cost a hell of a lot of money and material and if they did extend the Line, where would they have found the funds to build their tank divisions?
 

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The Maginot Line was very well prepared, except for mobile warfare. Their guns could not rotate, and therefore, at an angle you werent touched, why strike into a years planned line of bunkers and tank traps, when you can just go around it?
Oops, that DID happen ;)
Eben Emael is the name of the Belgian Fortress. :)
 

unmerged(1972)

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Well, in theory, if you could extend the Maginot line all the way to the coast, the army behind it could mop up any paratroopers that would drop in.
However, if you can break through the line, it's as useless as a turtle on it's back pretty much, and can be easily picked off from behind. You actually don't even have to worry about it since it has no offensive capability. You can just proceed to blitz into Paris and force an armistice.
Attacking through Italy would be an option for sure, but as anyone who's been to Provence knows, it is quite mountainous, and going north from there entails a bit of narrow mountain roads and tunnels (ie. easily defensible). Not sure if the game simulates that very well tho.
 

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Who says France has to declare war on Germany, as per history. Maybe France can "play nice" with the Germans until the Germans are freezing their unmentionables off in the Soviet Union. Of course, an attack accross the Franco-German border might not be difficult for the Germans to repulse, assuming Belgian neutrality. It is the political flexibility of this game that most intrigues me!

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With the miracle of hindsight the question you should be asking is not "does france have a chance" but rather "does germany"
The problem with France was that it was not a mobile army.
This is inccorect.
The French had their own versions of tank divisions and motorized divisions. Those performed relativly well in Belgium.
Its doctrine relied on static defense IE: the Maginot Line.
No, it did not. The French doctorine relied on limiting of casualties by use of technology.
Maginot line was ment to chanel an invading german army, which it did btw, and then the French army was to strike it down. It didnt work out because of lack of strategic preperation.
It also had a problem mobilizing its army to strike at Germany when they did invade Poland.
No it didnt, it had a psycological problem of attacking into trenches.
France also lacked the understanding on how to use its better armed tanks against Germany. Had they grouped them into armored divisions, instead of an infantry support unit, then they might have had better luck against Germany. German doctrin prohibited tank vrs tank clashes for the simple fact that allied tanks were typically better gunned and armored. They prefered to lure them into a predetermined anti-tank screen, or bypass and let the infantry and AT divisions role them up.
Hmm, maybe you should read up on the short yet relativly succesfull French campaign in Belgium.
I belive the 2nd and 3rd Panzer divisions were stoped cold by French 3rd and 4th LCDs..or LMCs ?Dont remember the correct abreviation!


What all of you seem to forget is how the Germans won.
They launched a surprise attack through a sector guarded by 2 French Cavalry divisions(the horse kind) by the vast majority of the Panzer divisions. Thus we had the a battle which had the worst of the French divisions fighting the best of the German divisions. No wonder that the Germans won, imagine what would happen if the best of French divisions fight the best of German. Actualy, you dont have to imagine, you just have to look at the Belgium campaign where the French performed fair enough, halting the Germans. Anyways, with hindsight, all the French would have to do is put 2 armored divisions instead of 2 cavalry divisions infront of the Ardenes. Voila, the Germans lost.


Also, I dont understand what your hangup with the Maginot line is. It performed perfectly, it chaneled the Germans through the Ardenes. Had French planers predicted the offensive through the ardenes all they would have to do is mine them or bomb them and the Germans would have stalled.
Plus you must not forget, the Maginot line actualy freed more men for offensive action.

Yes I believe they can. There are several options I believe that Germany has in her favor. If this game reflects history to some degree then if a French player choses to try and grind Germany down in a semi-defensive circle then Germany could, depending on her alliance status and what has been aquired(territory), could possibly invade through Italy.
No, it cant. Why would they succed where the Italians failed ? 2 French reserve divisions held back the entire Italian army for christsake. Without air support. The only way to invade France is either from the Ocean or from North Western Europe.
Germany could go with a more direct approach and paradrop behind French lines causing mass confusion then bang in. This would of course cause more casualties than actually experienced by Germany.
What would parachutists do ? Provide the French with so many German prisoners they would just have to give up instead of atempt to feed them all brat wurst? Look at Crete, the single largest German parachute operation was a near failer, the Germans suffered horrible casulties.
Germany could attack France first instead of Poland and see if Poland actually reacts, or maybe Russia makes good on the German pact and invades Poland drawing attention away from Germany.
What would that do ? How would that chang anything ?
If the French extend the Maginot line then paradrop behind and do an EBManuel (SP) type raid into the many many individual fortresses while keeping the remaining one's busy via bombing/arty dualing. The Maginot had little or no airdefense capability.
You are..joking ?