Do an Immersion Pack For Italy!

[Fluffy_Fishy]

It was once the case that Italy was one of the most interesting areas in the world of EU4, as of recent patches it has become nothing but a highly developed into quite a mediocre area, despite it being one of the main sources of conflict in the early part of the game.

Currently very few of the Italian states have unique missions, with as far as I can tell the only ones receiving any real attention are Venice and Genoa, with the Papal states receiving 3 unique missions, events are a little better with some attention given but its clearly behind what other regions have. At least Milan have their own unique government to play with, although its not much of a consolation to the lack of depth in the region as a whole.

What I would propose is to see a fleshing out content pack looking at the Italian states, their missions, ambitions and events surrounding them. It would also be good to see something looking into a proper path to forming Italy, something that was discussed with great intent over the course of the renaissance with the hope a united italy would be better positioned to deal with powerful European nations.

It would be great to see something focusing on not only expanding the flavour of the Italians but also looking at what is really one of the most major conflicts of the early game period, The Italian wars, something that is currently handled by a series of about 5-10 events that don't really do anything, mostly contained within Austria France and Spain that doesn't really lead anywhere, the major incursions into the Italian peninsular by these nations seem more organic than anything, where France gradually eats into savoy or Aragon maintains their PU over Naples.

What I would like to see is a system where you can claim and counter claim an area properly, first unlocked through competitive powers looking with beady eyes in the Italian peninsular and its wealth. This system could be then rolled out on a worldwide setting, where you could have a framework to counterclaim the interests of other nations, either through the rival system or great power system, personally I would prefer to see it enacted through rivals.

Looking more finely at the idea of an Italian conflict it would be really cool to see something similar to the 30 years war mechanics involving leagues, where the major claimants, which is likely going to be Austria, France and Spain, but also could potentially include other major outside powers with desire to spread their influence in Italy such as the Ottomans, as ottoman influence in Italy is something I don't often see forming properly. Italian nations should be able to try to balance this out fairly fluidly, with nations being able to chop and change in and out of fighting leaving us with a much more prominent and meaningful Italian war, another possibility is a potential to unite the squabbling Italians to kick out the outsiders, beginning a path to unification, something that again would be really cool to see.


Thank you for reading, if anyone else has any other ideas they might like to see put into an Italian content pack please do add to my suggestions. Hopefully I have been clear enough, but feel free to criticise my ideas too

 

[Me_]

Or better yet, stop doing immersion packs.

Although an Italy-centered DLC features would ba a nice touch.

 

[Grand Historian]

Or better yet, stop doing immersion packs.

Although an Italy-centered DLC features would ba a nice touch.

This. We need a return to the old expansion model focusing on general mechanics.

What's more is that many of the general mechanics that are perhaps most in need of being worked upon would have important implications for Italy - debt and loans, trade, mercenaries (and warfare in general), and Catholicism.

 

[Funchi]

I was thinking the exact same thing, but i would hope more for a complete DLC that would focus on Italy and all the Italian countries, with naturally game mechanics as a core!

First of all as you wrote the italian countries don't have personal mission which i find it quite annoying, because there is really no flavour to play them unless general conquest of map zones, an idea for example would be adding a mission to Milan where you would have to conquer back all the Visconti possesion of 1402, Milan owned in terms of eu4 map (Lucca, Pisa, Siena, half of Umbria, half of Romagna, Brescia and Verona)
here a map from wikipedia: Milan it's the bright green

I also suggest some special mission once you create Italy this would be hard to immagine, as being Italy a construct in this period.

Another idea would be that ONLY the Italian countries that are Republics, once they have conquered:
Region:
- Italy (whole);
Areas:
- East Adriatic;
- Macedonia;
- Northern Greece;
- Morea;
- Aydin;
- Tripolitania;
- Catalonia;
- Valencia;
- Upper Andalucia;
Single cores:
- Tunis;
- Provence.
They should be able to create the Roman Republic, this would be a complete different country in comparison to the Roman Empire with different traditions and ambition (for sure Pax Romana, Imperial Bureaucracy and Imperium Sine Fine should be changed), also forming Italy or Tuscany or change goverment form to monarchy should invalidate this option.
I think this option would add a bit of flavour to the Italian Republics and give them some sort of special bonus also in term of gameplay, as some of this zone are in the hand of powerful countries.
Creating the Roman Republic would give a new mission tree where you can slowly conquer and get permanent claims on the zones needed to recreate the Empire!

This is what i tought up for now, i know it's not much but i do hope it can be a starting point for some love for Italy

 

[Isildur9526]

We need a Mediterranean immersion pack as a whole that deals with regions that haven't been looked at since Art of War, like Iberia, Italy, North Africa and Balkan region. It would definitely help to balance out Hungary and France getting facelifts.

 

[Martynios]

The issue with the Italian wars is that it’s usually more logical for Spain and France to eat each other’s main territory rather than posessions in Italy.

 

[Fluffy_Fishy]

The issue with the Italian wars is that it’s usually more logical for Spain and France to eat each other’s main territory rather than posessions in Italy.

Well this is something that needs addressing, it should probably be more difficult to hold onto cores of different culture groups, especially while there is a major power still in play, blobbing out is far too easy in game, in general the game needs to look more closely at how static and established borders really were over the majority of history but that's a all getting a bit off topic and a thought for another day.

 

[Martynios]

Well this is something that needs addressing, it should probably be more difficult to hold onto cores of different culture groups, especially while there is a major power still in play, blobbing out is far too easy in game, in general the game needs to look more closely at how static and established borders really were over the majority of history but that's a all getting a bit off topic and a thought for another day.

The thing is, this was only really a thing in Europe, where the scarce territorial gains were usually based around feudal titles, before the French Revolution shook everything up. In the ROTW, massive conquests were the norm (Spanish conquest of Mexico and Peru, Ottoman conquest of the Mamluks, Qara and Aq Qoyunlu conquests of Persia, Mughal conquest of India, the list goes on).

 

[Grand Historian]

Well this is something that needs addressing, it should probably be more difficult to hold onto cores of different culture groups,

But wouldn't that apply for any French or Spanish expansion into Italy as well?

 

[Daydweller]

It's also a bit weird that Provence doesn't have a restoration of union on Naples since its only been like 2 years since they lost it [even still got a truce timer] would be nice to see some events for that too. Like if Provence uses their CB Naples gets an event whether to support them or not and join them in the war or support Aragon.

 

[Funchi]

It's also a bit weird that Provence doesn't have a restoration of union on Naples since its only been like 2 years since they lost it [even still got a truce timer] would be nice to see some events for that too. Like if Provence uses their CB Naples gets an event whether to support them or not and join them in the war or support Aragon.

More than a restoration of the union from the start, i think that it would be nicer to add an event that at the death of Alfonso V, Aragon looses the union with Naples, Provence at this point gets a restoration cb while aragon get's a royal marriage with naples, now if Naples doesn't get conquered by provence, and france and spain exist, they get an event in 1503 where spain gets an union on naples and france goes to war for the union.

This would be quite a nice series of event in my opinion. and they would be historically accurate.

 

[Fluffy_Fishy]

But wouldn't that apply for any French or Spanish expansion into Italy as well?

Its not like Italians were happy of living under Spanish or French dominated regions, the fact that major powers got to influence and push their goals on Italy was only really possible due to the fractured nature of power in the peninsular, had either Spain or France actually tried to expand into each others "core" territory they wouldn't have been able to hold it in the same way, which isn't really represented, perhaps we need a 3rd core type to express this, say dividing things up into Integrated Cores, Unintegrated Cores and Territorial Cores.

 

[Undead Martyr]

Its not like Italians were happy of living under Spanish or French dominated regions, the fact that major powers got to influence and push their goals on Italy was only really possible due to the fractured nature of power in the peninsular, had either Spain or France actually tried to expand into each others "core" territory they wouldn't have been able to hold it in the same way, which isn't really represented, perhaps we need a 3rd core type to express this, say dividing things up into Integrated Cores, Unintegrated Cores and Territorial Cores.

It might be better to expand the Personal Union mechanic (along with a Habsburg focused effort?) and rely more on vassals in that regard; the war could then be better seen as a struggle to enforce/steal a union over Milan and Naples and Burgundy rather than outight conquest.

 

[Fluffy_Fishy]

It might be better to expand the Personal Union mechanic (along with a Habsburg focused effort?) and rely more on vassals in that regard; the war could then be better seen as a struggle to enforce/steal a union over Milan and Naples and Burgundy rather than outight conquest.

The trouble with that is it starts to look a lot more like CK2, probably far too much so for anyone to be comfortable with.

 

[Grand Historian]

Its not like Italians were happy of living under Spanish or French dominated regions, the fact that major powers got to influence and push their goals on Italy was only really possible due to the fractured nature of power in the peninsular, had either Spain or France actually tried to expand into each others "core" territory they wouldn't have been able to hold it in the same way, which isn't really represented, perhaps we need a 3rd core type to express this, say dividing things up into Integrated Cores, Unintegrated Cores and Territorial Cores.

My point is more that if there's going to be equal penalties between conquering Italians as the Spanish and conquering the French as the Spanish, where's the additional incentive or mechanics pushing you into Italy and other proxy theaters rather than just marching across the Pyrenees as so many players and the AI do?

 

[Fluffy_Fishy]

My point is more that if there's going to be equal penalties between conquering Italians as the Spanish and conquering the French as the Spanish, where's the additional incentive or mechanics pushing you into Italy and other proxy theaters rather than just marching across the Pyrenees as so many players and the AI do?

Perhaps I worded myself badly but I was trying to get across the idea that large powers dominant within a culture should give bigger resistance to occupation, say france conquers Navarre Spain being a roughly equal power causes there to be much more prominent resistance than say Spain conquering Sicily, where the major power of italy is for example Milan, who are a much more minor state to Spain. The benefit of this taking this idea forward is say Milan grows and eats up the majority of the north, Sicily becomes more difficult for Spain to hold onto.

 

[Funchi]

Perhaps I worded myself badly but I was trying to get across the idea that large powers dominant within a culture should give bigger resistance to occupation, say france conquers Navarre Spain being a roughly equal power causes there to be much more prominent resistance than say Spain conquering Sicily, where the major power of italy is for example Milan, who are a much more minor state to Spain. The benefit of this taking this idea forward is say Milan grows and eats up the majority of the north, Sicily becomes more difficult for Spain to hold onto.

the idea it's not bad, but consider that italy was a divided country where too many people wanted to rule their small field and didn't care much about who was on top of them.

in italy we have a saying: "o Franza o Spagna, purchè se magna" and it means either france or spain, the import thing is that we eat. It seems that it was said around 1520 by a Florentine ambassador that first made a deal with spain then, and when in went back to florence made a deal with france to prevent Carlo V of gaining too much power in italy and keeping some independence in italy.

 

[QuantumWind]

Alright so tried to search as many documents as i could, and will try to do so. Most of Italian documents and maps that can be found are mostly after 1454 that is the date of the Treaty of Lodi that finally put borders after wars fought since the start of the 400s , so i will mostly use them for the start date Europa Universalis adopted (1444)
For now i will publish the easiest, more evident and historical changes in my opinion.

Naples

This map is the administrative subdivision of the Kingdom of Naples in 1454, as you can see most of the provinces depicted are almost copied in EU4, the Abruzzi and Molise were merged in one province, and the only one that is left out is the number 10, that's pretty much Benevento.
The province of Benevento was mostly drew on natural borders, and it was needed since the city itself was mostly controlled by clergy and so had to have its own dministration. The City was very important since roman time, and mostly during middle age (CK2 timeline) with itz own duchy. But then became also papal residency and was used mostly by the Pope to reward the King of Naples
I would suggest to add the province just like it is depicted in the map, since the other southern regions do the same.

Peace of Lodi 1454 (North Italy)

So italy in EU4 looks a lot more semplified as it was during the period, i can understand that since you cant depict every single exclave, inch of territory a family has held for just 5 years or so, but i think the game is missing some important ones.

• Bologna: One of the most important city in the area, was the place Charles V was crowned by Pope Clement VII, and in the start date under the control of the Papal State, now is merged in the "Romagna province" that in my opinion could be split into "Bologna" and "Ravenna"
• Pavia: Historicaly important , very close to Lodi and Piacenza. I would suggest to shrink "Novara" and "Parma" provinces size and make a small one for it

Thats most of it for now i guess. The only country that maybe is big enough to be in the game could be the Marchesato di Salluzzo, but for game balance it is symbolized by Montferrat.

If i find something else i will post on this thread again, thanks.

 

[TheVikingWarrior]

I'll drop here my suggestion to make the Ambrosian republic event more historical:
https://forum.paradoxplaza.com/forum/index.php?threads/laurea-repubblica-ambrosiana.1064306/

Also a while back I made a bitmap just for fun of Italy with 60 extra provinces:

Spoiler: Map

I stopped working on it as my PC crashed and I had IRL stuff to do

 

[Funchi]

Alright so tried to search as many documents as i could, and will try to do so. Most of Italian documents and maps that can be found are mostly after 1454 that is the date of the Treaty of Lodi that finally put borders after wars fought since the start of the 400s , so i will mostly use them for the start date Europa Universalis adopted (1444)
For now i will publish the easiest, more evident and historical changes in my opinion.

If i find something else i will post on this thread again, thanks.

Maybe you could try and look more at which nobles hold which titles or which cities republics.

For example 2 country that should exist but are not shown in the game are the Republic or San Marino (formally recognized an independent state since 1291) and the Republic of Ancona, this city state gained a de facto independence since the XI century given by the Pope Alessandro III and was recognized a formal republic by another Pope Eugenio IV in 1443. The city lost it's independence in 1532 when the pope troops entered the town on the false pretest that the Ottomans where going to attack and gained control of the town. Ancona was always allied with Ragusa since 1199 as La Serenissima didn't liked that other cities in the Adriatic would commerce with the Orient, this two Republic considered themselves sister cities and created a commercial route that started from Constantinople till England. This alliance basically made it possible for the two cities to never succumb to La Serenissima.