Do an Immersion Pack For Italy!

[Fluffy_Fishy]

It was once the case that Italy was one of the most interesting areas in the world of EU4, as of recent patches it has become nothing but a highly developed into quite a mediocre area, despite it being one of the main sources of conflict in the early part of the game.

Currently very few of the Italian states have unique missions, with as far as I can tell the only ones receiving any real attention are Venice and Genoa, with the Papal states receiving 3 unique missions, events are a little better with some attention given but its clearly behind what other regions have. At least Milan have their own unique government to play with, although its not much of a consolation to the lack of depth in the region as a whole.

What I would propose is to see a fleshing out content pack looking at the Italian states, their missions, ambitions and events surrounding them. It would also be good to see something looking into a proper path to forming Italy, something that was discussed with great intent over the course of the renaissance with the hope a united italy would be better positioned to deal with powerful European nations.

It would be great to see something focusing on not only expanding the flavour of the Italians but also looking at what is really one of the most major conflicts of the early game period, The Italian wars, something that is currently handled by a series of about 5-10 events that don't really do anything, mostly contained within Austria France and Spain that doesn't really lead anywhere, the major incursions into the Italian peninsular by these nations seem more organic than anything, where France gradually eats into savoy or Aragon maintains their PU over Naples.

What I would like to see is a system where you can claim and counter claim an area properly, first unlocked through competitive powers looking with beady eyes in the Italian peninsular and its wealth. This system could be then rolled out on a worldwide setting, where you could have a framework to counterclaim the interests of other nations, either through the rival system or great power system, personally I would prefer to see it enacted through rivals.

Looking more finely at the idea of an Italian conflict it would be really cool to see something similar to the 30 years war mechanics involving leagues, where the major claimants, which is likely going to be Austria, France and Spain, but also could potentially include other major outside powers with desire to spread their influence in Italy such as the Ottomans, as ottoman influence in Italy is something I don't often see forming properly. Italian nations should be able to try to balance this out fairly fluidly, with nations being able to chop and change in and out of fighting leaving us with a much more prominent and meaningful Italian war, another possibility is a potential to unite the squabbling Italians to kick out the outsiders, beginning a path to unification, something that again would be really cool to see.


Thank you for reading, if anyone else has any other ideas they might like to see put into an Italian content pack please do add to my suggestions. Hopefully I have been clear enough, but feel free to criticise my ideas too

 

[Funchi]

Sorry for the long wait, but I had lots of work to do in these days.
So, the Anconan Ideas...

The first ambition derives form the three imperial sieges, in which Ancona was never captured.
The second ambition was inspired by the fact that Ancona was an old maritime republic.

The first idea I took from a battle won by the Anconan army against the one of Galeazzo Malatesta, who wanted to capture the city.
The second idea came to my mind when I read about Francesco Sforza trying to capture the city by corrupting officials and turning them into spies. They were caught, put into sacks and thrown into the sea.
The third idea is about the Adriatic Renaissance.
The fourth idea comes form the noble families which held territories on the border with the Papal States and provided men for the army.
The fifth idea reflects the "Statuti del Mare", laws who regulated transport of passengers on ships and the requirement for the crews.
The sixth idea derives form the "Statuti del Terzenale", in which were written the rules for shipbuilding and their purchase.
The seventh and last idea comes form the "Statuti della Dogana", which regulated import and exports.

The ambition could reflect Ancona wanting to have naval dominance over the Adriatic Sea.

I think they are all quite good.
I personally would change just the third idea and the ambition.
For the third idea i would give it +0,5 Prestige and -10% idea cost, i would increase the idea reduction just to introduce with the Adriatic Renaissance also something on Ciriaco Pizzecolli (1391-1452) also named Ciriaco d'Ancona (which as i've said in another post he's considered the father of Archeology), his work on the Romans and Greeks ancient cultures is considered the best in the world untill the Age of Enlightenment.
About the ambition i would give it a +15% Global trade power to reflect Benvenuto Stracca (1509-1578, father of Commercial Law) book that was written in 1553, "De Mercatura sive de Mercatore", i know the book was written 21 years after the loss of independence of Ancona, but that is why i think it would be a good ambition, cause it would reflect the possibility of Ancona remaning independent and as the book was used as a reference all around european courthouses it would show how important on global trade it was.

I would also give a +25 relation bonus with Ragusa named Historical Friends (like Venice with the The Knights, and Castille with Portugal) to reflect the fact that they called themself sister republics, i would also give a Costal Center of Trade to the new Ancona Region.

 

[Van Kasten]

I would also give a +25 relation bonus with Ragusa named Historical Friends (like Venice with the The Knights, and Castille with Portugal) to reflect the fact that they called themself sister republics, i would also give a Costal Center of Trade to the new Ancona Region.

I agree on the historical friends bonus, but since the Centers of Trade are not flexible I say that we should not put one in Ancona. That’s because it should disappear when it gets inglobated in the Papal States.

I think they are all quite good.
I personally would change just the third idea and the ambition.
For the third idea i would give it +0,5 Prestige and -10% idea cost.
About the ambition i would give it a +15% Global trade power

Thanks! But I think that -10% idea cost and +0,5 prestige is a bit too much. The ambition is fine though.

 

[solidprice]

Would like more Italian flavor.
Wish Italy had more devolopement.

Also wish the Italian republics/city states would kick off colonialism if other tags dropped the ball / good releations with ottomans.

 

[Sanguine Caesar]

Been keeping my eye on this thread for a while now, and I must say, great work so far! Though I do feel that certain areas should be given more of a priority (i.e North Africa/Iberia, the Balkans, and the Caucasus/Steppes) I am definitely looking forward to seeing if these suggestions are eventually implemented by the devs!

Also I've noticed Ragusa being mentioned several times throughout this thread. Should you wish to also incorporate some ideas for Ragusan, Istrian, or Dalmatian flavour, I have collected quite a bit of information for a project I am working on with @Parmelion (see my signature if interested in joining), and will gladly share some should you require it. Despite not being part of Italy proper and being primarily composed of ethnic Slavs, both politically and culturally these areas were far more connected to Italy during the time period so perhaps they might be included in an immersion pack focused on the region.

 

[Funchi]

but since the Centers of Trade are not flexible I say that we should not put one in Ancona. That’s because it should disappear when it gets inglobated in the Papal States.

Oh right, Ancona did loose importance after 1532 when it lost her independence, maybe it would be cool to create an event that in 1532 if Ancona (country) owns Ancona (region) and it’s an independent country, then The Papal State gets an event where they have various option:

Option A: The Pope wants more land

• -20 Papal Authority;
• +2% Catholic Reform Desire;
• -50 Relation with Ancona (They desire our city);
• The Papal State get a permanent claim on Ancona;

Option B: The Pope must be closer to God.

• +20 Papal Authority
• -2% Catholic Reform Desire
• +50 Relation with Ancona (They respect our independence)

Option C: Protect Ancona from the Ottomans

• +25 Relation with Ancona
• Ancona get an Event

Event in Ancona if The Papal State chooses Option C

Option A: The Pope will protect us

• -25 Relation with The Papal State (They deceived us)
• Ancona becomes a vassal of The Papal State

Option B: We don’t need anyone protection.

• -100 relation for both countries;
• The Papal State gets a permanent claim on Ancona
• The Papal State gets a vassalize Casus Belli on Ancona

Option A would reflect the “Temporal Power” doctrine of the Pope, option B would reflect the “Spiritual power” doctrine of the Pope, while option C would try to reflect what happened in real history. In the option A of Ancona the player would go down the historical route, while with option B of Ancona it would make it more challenging.
I think the AI (Papal State) should be able to choose between this three option also based on the relation of Ancona with the Curia Controller,

Are you sure the Costal Center of Trade can’t be flexible? I don’t think creating an event where in case any other country other than Ancona (country) owns Ancona (region) gets an event that says: “With the loss of the Republic Independence the city of Ancona lost her commercial importance.” And the region loses the Costal Center of Trade, after all if there are events that can transform Natural Harbors into Costal Center of Trade I don’t think such an event can be so hard to implement it.

Thanks! But I think that -10% idea cost and +0,5 prestige is a bit too much

Let’s make it 7% reduction? So Ciriaco is in the game!

 

[Van Kasten]

Oh right, Ancona did loose importance after 1532 when it lost her independence, maybe it would be cool to create an event that in 1532 if Ancona (country) owns Ancona (region) and it’s an independent country, then The Papal State gets an event where they have various option:

Option A: The Pope wants more land

• -20 Papal Authority;
• +2% Catholic Reform Desire;
• -50 Relation with Ancona (They desire our city);
• The Papal State get a permanent claim on Ancona;

Option B: The Pope must be closer to God.

• +20 Papal Authority
• -2% Catholic Reform Desire
• +50 Relation with Ancona (They respect our independence)

Option C: Protect Ancona from the Ottomans

• +25 Relation with Ancona
• Ancona get an Event

Event in Ancona if The Papal State chooses Option C

Option A: The Pope will protect us

• -25 Relation with The Papal State (They deceived us)
• Ancona becomes a vassal of The Papal State

Option B: We don’t need anyone protection.

• -100 relation for both countries;
• The Papal State gets a permanent claim on Ancona
• The Papal State gets a vassalize Casus Belli on Ancona

Option A would reflect the “Temporal Power” doctrine of the Pope, option B would reflect the “Spiritual power” doctrine of the Pope, while option C would try to reflect what happened in real history. In the option A of Ancona the player would go down the historical route, while with option B of Ancona it would make it more challenging.
I think the AI (Papal State) should be able to choose between this three option also based on the relation of Ancona with the Curia Controller,

Well, I think that the event chain of the annexation of Ancona should be more historical and connected to the fact that the Papal States were heavily decentralized. So I’ll shape the event chain like that:
1) Papal State gets this event if: Age is not Age of Discovery, Ottomans exists and Papal State has the Staesman advisor or ruler has the “Tactical Genius”
“A chance to annex Ancona?”
“Pope [name] and his board of advisors have devised a peculiar plan: we will ask the Anconan consuls the permission to build a fort near the city to better protect them against raid from the Ottomans and their dependencies. We’ll pay for it, so they would likely accept. Then, when the fortress is built, we will send an ultimatum to the city. The vicinity of the cannon should of the fort will serve as a powerful incentive to submit completely to our authority. What shall we do with this plan?”

-“Execute it as soon as possible!”
the event “A singular proposal” fires for Ancona

-“It’s too ambitious. It would never work.”
Lose 5 prestige

“A singular proposal” event for Ancona
“Pope [name]’s emissary came to us with an offer. They want to protect our coastlines from the raids of the Turks and their Barbary corsairs. They intend to build a fort near our city and pay for it! This sounds like a deal.”

-“Accept the proposal”
fire the event “Ancona accepts” for Papal States

-“This deal looks fishy. Refuse.”
fire the event “Ancona refuses” for Papal States

I will shape it like that. When the fort is complete, there will be two events: Papal State loses devotion and annexes Ancona or gain devotion and leave Ancona be.
What do you think?

Edit: Reform desire is not necessary since the Protestant Reformation would likely be already there.

 

[Funchi]

Well, I think that the event chain of the annexation of Ancona should be more historical and connected to the fact that the Papal States were heavily decentralized. So I’ll shape the event chain like that:
1) Papal State gets this event if: Age is not Age of Discovery, Ottomans exists and Papal State has the Staesman advisor or ruler has the “Tactical Genius”
“A chance to annex Ancona?”
“Pope [name] and his board of advisors have devised a peculiar plan: we will ask the Anconan consuls the permission to build a fort near the city to better protect them against raid from the Ottomans and their dependencies. We’ll pay for it, so they would likely accept. Then, when the fortress is built, we will send an ultimatum to the city. The vicinity of the cannon should of the fort will serve as a powerful incentive to submit completely to our authority. What shall we do with this plan?”

-“Execute it as soon as possible!”
the event “A singular proposal” fires for Ancona

-“It’s too ambitious. It would never work.”
Lose 5 prestige

“A singular proposal” event for Ancona
“Pope [name]’s emissary came to us with an offer. They want to protect our coastlines from the raids of the Turks and their Barbary corsairs. They intend to build a fort near our city and pay for it! This sounds like a deal.”

-“Accept the proposal”
fire the event “Ancona accepts” for Papal States

-“This deal looks fishy. Refuse.”
fire the event “Ancona refuses” for Papal States

I will shape it like that. When the fort is complete, there will be two events: Papal State loses devotion and annexes Ancona or gain devotion and leave Ancona be.
What do you think?

Edit: Reform desire is not necessary since the Protestant Reformation would likely be already there.

For sure you know how to write events better than me.
Yours looks much more historical and i think we can easily go with it, i would just maybe increase the options to also make it less historical just so there is more diversity, a bit like when Castille chooses to marry a local girl in the Iberian wedding...(i've seen it happen only once). I would also add in the options to fire "A chance to annex Ancona?" that Ancona is independent, cause let's say Venice or Ferrara vassalize the city or they conquer it, then The Papal State should not be able to get the mission.

 

[Van Kasten]

For sure you know how to write events better than me.

You flatter me. I just tend to like more verbose sentences. I also have a little bit of experience because I’m currently writing lots of events for the Italian States that I’ll publish as a new thread when they’re ready. At the moment I have 23 single events and 4 event chains. Plus, some National Ideas for Ferrara (as I posted here), and Modena and Mantua (wip), National idea change for Savoy, new scripted advisors and unique decisions. I think you’ll like it

Yours looks much more historical and i think we can easily go with it, i would just maybe increase the options to also make it less historical just so there is more diversity, a bit like when Castille chooses to marry a local girl in the Iberian wedding...(i've seen it happen only once). I would also add in the options to fire "A chance to annex Ancona?" that Ancona is independent, cause let's say Venice or Ferrara vassalize the city or they conquer it, then The Papal State should not be able to get the mission.

Ah, Yes! You’re right. If Ancona is independent the event should not fire, but if it’s a subject of the Papal States, there should be a third option like:

-“Help them with a donation but out of generosity alone”
Gain 5 devotion
Lose 50 ducats
Ancona gain “Improved defences” modifier (+10% defensiveness) for 15 years

 

[Funchi]

You flatter me. I just tend to like more verbose sentences. I also have a little bit of experience because I’m currently writing lots of events for the Italian States that I’ll publish as a new thread when they’re ready. At the moment I have 23 single events and 4 event chains. Plus, some National Ideas for Ferrara (as I posted here), and Modena and Mantua (wip), National idea change for Savoy, new scripted advisors and unique decisions. I think you’ll like it

Can't wait for it! I really hope that a developer reads the new thread, and if you create it, you can keep on editing the first post so it is always updated

Ah, Yes! You’re right. If Ancona is independent the event should not fire

i think you mean that if Ancona is independent the event can fire?
cause if ancona is independent i don't understand why the event where the pope annex the country can't start.

 

[Van Kasten]

Can't wait for it! I really hope that a developer reads the new thread, and if you create it, you can keep on editing the first post so it is always updated

Thanks you! I just finished Modena’s ideas (even if there isn’t much info out there). I’m now working on the only event that I can make for Modena.

i think you mean that if Ancona is independent the event can fire?
cause if ancona is independent i don't understand why the event where the pope annex the country can't start.

No, quite the opposite. If Ancona is independent the event will not occur.

 

[Funchi]

No, quite the opposite. If Ancona is independent the event will not occur.

wait i don't get it, so you are saying that annexing Ancona via event can only happen if:

• Age is not Age of Discovery;
• Ottomans exist;
• The Papal State has the Statesman advisor or ruler has the “Tactical Genius”
• Ancona is a vassal of The Papal State.

If i'm understanding something wrong just tell me.
If we want it more historical on the event conditions i think they should be the following:

• Age is not Age of Discovery;
• Ottomans exist;
• The Papal State in not a vassal or tributary state;
• The Papal State has the Staesman advisor or ruler has the “Tactical Genius”
• Ancona is not a vassal or tributary state;
• Ancona owns two or less provinces. (this would prevent that the Pope can get a big vassal in case Ancona went on a conquest spree)

Now at this point we can mix both of our ideas to make an interesting chain event with various ending for both Countries.

Btw about the costal center of trade, i proposed the event that if Ancona (country) loses Ancona (region) or the country gets vassalized, the Costal Center of Trade is lost, as i'm sure you know the game mechanics better than me, is this possibile or not? Cause i know that Natural Harbours can become Costal Center of Trade, so something on that line should not be so strange.

 

[Van Kasten]

wait i don't get it, so you are saying that annexing Ancona via event can only happen if:

• Age is not Age of Discovery;
• Ottomans exist;
• The Papal State has the Statesman advisor or ruler has the “Tactical Genius”
• Ancona is a vassal of The Papal State.

If i'm understanding something wrong just tell me.

Yes, the Papal States can integrate Ancona like that

If we want it more historical on the event conditions i think they should be the following:

• Age is not Age of Discovery;
• Ottomans exist;
• The Papal State in not a vassal or tributary state;
• The Papal State has the Staesman advisor or ruler has the “Tactical Genius”
• Ancona is not a vassal or tributary state;
• Ancona owns two or less provinces. (this would prevent that the Pope can get a big vassal in case Ancona went on a conquest spree)

Now at this point we can mix both of our ideas to make an interesting chain event with various ending for both Countries.

Btw about the costal center of trade, i proposed the event that if Ancona (country) loses Ancona (region) or the country gets vassalized, the Costal Center of Trade is lost, as i'm sure you know the game mechanics better than me, is this possibile or not? Cause i know that Natural Harbours can become Costal Center of Trade, so something on that line should not be so strange.

If Ancona is not vassal of the Papal States there should be no event. The Coastal Center of Trade can be substituted with a province modifier like the “Sound Toll”. For example, you can have a “Adriatic Trade Hub” worth +5 Trade Power. We should also specify which trade good to place in Ancona.

 

[Mak Mapping]

As I for some reason can't upload images, here are my proposed cultural and political images (Mainly a combination of other people's ideas): https://imgur.com/a/yni2suZ

As for the asterisks on the culture map,

*If Province in east adriatic state/territory (Lika, Zara, Spalato, Ragusa) is converted to latin culture group, it fires event:
New Culture!
Dalmatia was historically controlled by Italian countries. However, it is seperated from Italia by the Adriatic Sea. Thus, they have slowly drifted to having their own dialect and slightly different culture.
Interesting. (Province that was culture converted is converted to Dalmatian, a culture in Latin culture group)

**If all Arpitan provinces are owned by a country with latin as primary culture group, it fires event:
The Savoyards
The Arpitans were just as important as the Piedmontese in the Italian nation of Savoy. They are clearly Italian, not French!
Of Course! Those who call them 'Francoprovencal' are clearly stupid! (All Arpitan (French) provinces become Arpitan (Latin))
What are those fools talking about? (Nothing changes)
Why stop there? (All Arpitan (French) provinces become Arpitan (Latin), and Avignone (Avignon), Draginone (Draguinan), Provenza (Provence), and Tolone (Toloun) are Converted to Ligurian)

 

[pizzarocket]

I wish Florence had a unique government centered around the Medici.

 

[Van Kasten]

I wish Florence had a unique government centered around the Medici.

It would be feasible for the new patch and expansion. It could be a Republic with a special reform, not unique to Florence but to alla Italian Republics: the reform shoul enable some sort of Signoria mechanics. Other tags shoul (historically) benefit from this: like Siena and Bologna (if it will be added).

 

[Sanguine Caesar]

If Province in east adriatic state/territory (Lika, Zara, Spalato, Ragusa) is converted to latin culture group, it fires event:
New Culture!
Dalmatia was historically controlled by Italian countries. However, it is seperated from Italia by the Adriatic Sea. Thus, they have slowly drifted to having their own dialect and slightly different culture.
Interesting. (Province that was culture converted is converted to Dalmatian, a culture in Latin culture group)

The thing with Dalmatian Romance peoples is that they were already present in the region from the fall of the Roman Empire. Some attempts of re-population with Venetians did occur in Istria, but only after the territory had been devastated by the Uskok War of 1615-1618, and the many outbreaks of plague and malaria which followed. Aside from that however, the Romance-speaking peoples of the Adriatic were there since long before the time period of EUIV. Therefore, if Dalmatian (representing all Romance-speakers of the Eastern Adriatic) is to be added as a culture, the following requirements should be met first:

• The province of Istria should be redrawn to better illustrate Venice's coastal holdings in the region
• Two new provinces, Trieste and Fiume/Rijeka, should be created to represent the Habsburg holdings

*Some would also include the creation of a province of Veglia/Krk to represent the Frankopan holdings there. I personally would not, but it remains an option nonetheless

Now then, should such changes be implemented, it makes the historical representation of the romance-speakers of the Eastern Adriatic far more feasible, especially . Istria (the coastal part controlled by Venice) and Trieste should be represented as Dalmatian considering how their populations were mostly Romance-speakers. Fiume/Rijeka should be Croatian to represent how the Habsburg-controlled holdings in Istria were mostly inhabited by Slavs. If Veglia/Krk were added, there is also a possibility that they could be represented as Dalmatian, but that would require some research to confirm.

Finally, Ragusa (the tag) should also have its primary culture changed to Dalmatian, while the province of Dubrovnik should remain Croatian. This would be to represent how the ruling upper class within the city spoke the Dalmatian language and sought closer ties to Italy, while the vernacular spoken amongst the rest of the populace was Croatian, with a majority of citizens identifying as Slavs. The topic was thoroughly discussed in this thread and this was the optimal solution we were able to reach. Hopefully this was of any help

 

[Mak Mapping]

• The province of Istria should be redrawn to better illustrate Venice's coastal holdings in the region
• Two new provinces, Trieste and Fiume/Rijeka, should be created to represent the Habsburg holdings

Now then, should such changes be implemented, it makes the historical representation of the romance-speakers of the Eastern Adriatic far more feasible, especially . Istria (the coastal part controlled by Venice) and Trieste should be represented as Dalmatian considering how their populations were mostly Romance-speakers. Fiume/Rijeka should be Croatian to represent how the Habsburg-controlled holdings in Istria were mostly inhabited by Slavs. If Veglia/Krk were added, there is also a possibility that they could be represented as Dalmatian, but that would require some research to confirm.

I like this idea.

 

[Fluffy_Fishy]

• The province of Istria should be redrawn to better illustrate Venice's coastal holdings in the region
• Two new provinces, Trieste and Fiume/Rijeka, should be created to represent the Habsburg holdings

Now then, should such changes be implemented, it makes the historical representation of the romance-speakers of the Eastern Adriatic far more feasible, especially . Istria (the coastal part controlled by Venice) and Trieste should be represented as Dalmatian considering how their populations were mostly Romance-speakers. Fiume/Rijeka should be Croatian to represent how the Habsburg-controlled holdings in Istria were mostly inhabited by Slavs. If Veglia/Krk were added, there is also a possibility that they could be represented as Dalmatian, but that would require some research to confirm.

I like this idea.

The whole stato da mar could do with a redraw. M&T do it very nicely as a mod, although the detail is maybe a bit too extreme. Alternatively trade posts more similar to those in CK2 might be cool to add.

 

[Funchi]

If Ancona is not vassal of the Papal States there should be no event.

That's the point, there should be an event if Ancona is not a vassal of the Pope, i can understand that a small event can be implemented if Ancona it's a vassal, but i really do belive that a serious chain event between both countries should take place in case both The Papal Estate and Ancona are indipendent, it would be closer to real history.

The Coastal Center of Trade can be substituted with a province modifier like the “Sound Toll”. For example, you can have a “Adriatic Trade Hub” worth +5 Trade Power. We should also specify which trade good to place in Ancona.

From what i could understand Ancona didn't had a special product but it was more like a trade hub harbor between central and north italy with mainly the eastern part of the mediterranean sea.

As I for some reason can't upload images, here are my proposed cultural and political images (Mainly a combination of other people's ideas

nice map, can you try and redraw it like this, cutting romagna only in two parts (Bologna and Rimini) and splitting the current Ancona region, with Macerata that would be the new name, and make Ancona just a small dot ( a bit like Frankfurt) on the seaside, but without touching Urbino. Leave Urbino as it is right now, maybe make Romagna and Urbino a bit smaller to create San Marino (landlocked). I think this would be the most correct division of the Romagna and Marche region.

 

[Van Kasten]

Leave Urbino as it is right now, maybe make Romagna and Urbino a bit smaller to create San Marino (landlocked).

San Marino is too small to be portrayed. Even Ancona may not be put into the game, and it’s definitely bigger.

From what i could understand Ancona didn't had a special product but it was more like a trade hub harbor between central and north italy with mainly the eastern part of the mediterranean sea.

Of course, but every province in EU4 needs a Trade Good to produce.