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Enravota

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His lands were clearly inherited but his imperial title was not. Instead the change from Frankish Empire to HRE was mainly based on the principle of translatio imperii. And since it is based on translatio imperii they should not be able to exist currently but should still be separate empires.
Translatio imperii is the move to the new Rome (Constantinople) and if anything it revokes the western empire (since Rome is now in the east). You must be thinking of Ordinatio imperii by Luis the Pious. The treaty of Verdun settled the affairs of the imperial title and it was clearly out of the domain of the West Francia, despite its consequent fate,

You are right about Russia though. The Russian Imperial claim was also based on translatio imperii, in their case of the ERE.
IMHO splitting the giga-Rus kingdom of earlier versions and replacing it with an empire was not a very good way to simulate the region. If there was a mechanic for Orthodox monarchs to claim ceasarship (for extra prestige + a patriarch) the Rus should also be able to do that I guess.
 

Jeltz

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Translatio imperii is the move to the new Rome (Constantinople) and if anything it revokes the western empire (since Rome is now in the east). You must be thinking of Ordinatio imperii by Luis the Pious. The treaty of Verdun settled the affairs of the imperial title and it was clearly out of the domain of the West Francia, despite its consequent fate,

No, that is not what translatio imperii usually refers to. And it was East Francia which created the HRE not the Kingdom of Italy which for a while retained the imperial title.

IMHO splitting the giga-Rus kingdom of earlier versions and replacing it with an empire was not a very good way to simulate the region. If there was a mechanic for Orthodox monarchs to claim ceasarship (for extra prestige + a patriarch) the Rus should also be able to do that I guess.

I strongly agree with you about the current setup in eastern Europe being very suboptimal. The previous setup was bad and the new one is worse. I have tried starting as a Russian character but it is one of the most boring parts of the map. Just a race to first gobble up as many pagans as you can to then try to assassinate and conquer your way to a Russian Empire. All so you can hopefully fen off the mongols.

Maybe rota and some way to limit the crown authority of the grand prince of the Rus' would be necessary for an interesting Russian game play. Don't think Paradox will implement it though.
 

Enravota

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No, that is not what translatio imperii usually refers to. And it was East Francia which created the HRE not the Kingdom of Italy which for a while retained the imperial title.
IDK, I always met the term in local books referring to the move to the east, or maybe I remember incorrectly :D. There is no Italy, but Middle Francia (Lotharingia) gobbled up by the eastern Franks. In any case, I think one imperial title descending from Charlemagne should be enough. Currently every region of W Europe has an empire, which makes the HRE not really special enough, I'd rather see the player and AI trying to get the title from the HRE, a bit of deficit goods.

I strongly agree with you about the current setup in eastern Europe being very suboptimal. The previous setup was bad and the new one is worse. I have tried starting as a Russian character but it is one of the most boring parts of the map. Just a race to first gobble up as many pagans as you can to then try to assassinate and conquer your way to a Russian Empire. All so you can hopefully fen off the mongols.

Maybe rota and some way to limit the crown authority of the grand prince of the Rus' would be necessary for an interesting Russian game play. Don't think Paradox will implement it though.
Afaik rota is out for now at least. The really uncool part is both Ruthenia and Rus kingdoms are formed within a generation in the grand campaign :(
 

smeggy

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Some think, every Tsardom is a empire... But the Serbian and Bulgarian Tsars are more like kings then emperors. in game terms. And the Kingdom of Serbia and the of Bulgaria is already in the game, yes.

First off I think my post was a bit harsh, sorry for that. I still think my point stand: it's a game where compromises have to be made; the titles of Tsar among others lose their meaning when it's used for tier3 (baron-count-duke) rules instead of t5 (b-c-d-king-emperor). I'm dutch, from the Holland region. I've to live with the humaliation my kingdom of today is only a small dutchy in CK2, and worse, under the rule of a German ;)
 

Thure

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First off I think my post was a bit harsh, sorry for that. I still think my point stand: it's a game where compromises have to be made; the titles of Tsar among others lose their meaning when it's used for tier3 (baron-count-duke) rules instead of t5 (b-c-d-king-emperor). I'm dutch, from the Holland region. I've to live with the humaliation my kingdom of today is only a small dutchy in CK2, and worse, under the rule of a German ;)

The Tsardoms should be Kingdoms, of course (And the Kingdoms of Bulgaria and Serbia are in game). But Empires would a little bit to high, I think.
 

1zarathustra1

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This thread should be locked. I am the first one to criticize people when they immediately jump on posters who have not registered the game, but in this case the OP has openly admitted to pirating the game and I really don't see why this should continue on.
 

Closet Skeleton

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The Serbian and Bulgarian Tsars were trying to take over the Byzantine Empire. They shouldn't be there own Empire tier title (but the Latin Empire is in the game so I guess they might as well be).

The Empires of Trebizond and Epirus aren't empire tier either.

Caesar is a lower rank than Basileus in Byzantine hierarchy. This is reflected in game by Caesar just being an honorary title. Have the King of Bulgaria as a vassal while you're emperor and you can make him a Tsar if you want.
 

Kimberly

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First off I think my post was a bit harsh, sorry for that. I still think my point stand: it's a game where compromises have to be made; the titles of Tsar among others lose their meaning when it's used for tier3 (baron-count-duke) rules instead of t5 (b-c-d-king-emperor). I'm dutch, from the Holland region. I've to live with the humaliation my kingdom of today is only a small dutchy in CK2, and worse, under the rule of a German ;)

Even worse, in medieval times your duchy is German, really. :p
 

Jeltz

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Afaik rota is out for now at least. The really uncool part is both Ruthenia and Rus kingdoms are formed within a generation in the grand campaign :(

Yeah, they said as much in one of the videos, but I still have a tiny little hope they might still change their minds. And, yes, seeing Ruthenia form is another bad part of playing a game in Russia. Historically the only part which broke off and formed an own kingdom was Galich-Volhynia. The split of Ruthenia/Rus does not even make any sense.
 

Chazzen01

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This thread should be locked. I am the first one to criticize people when they immediately jump on posters who have not registered the game, but in this case the OP has openly admitted to pirating the game and I really don't see why this should continue on.

No, he didn't say that directly he said not many people have the game in Serbia...innocent until proven guilty is what I say...but it is up to the Moderators.

EDIT: Also, on topic...I don't think they should be added as empire's...they didn't have the land required to be technically a "empire" per say.
 

Spartanlemur

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Orly? When did the Norwegian sovereigns were internationally recognised as a Caesars of the Norsmen or whatnot? You are mistaking the modern definition of an empire and the historical titulature used during the game's time frame. While the kingdom tier makes sense for Bulgaria and Serbia (and BTW having king vassals for Byz does not), there is a significant enough distinction between the titles in a time where that mattered. While I doubt it would be added as a stand alone DLC, it would have made sense to be a part of LoR.


As a matter of fact neither of those does make any sense. The unification of most of those regions came to be as personal unions and maintaining those would be the point of unification, while the Russian claim of ceasarship is to much out of scope of the game. The only emperor running around those places during CKII was in Spain and that should also be addressed by a separate mechanic. Titles, however empty they may seem to be to you, were of great relevance in the era, something I consider would have been a nice boon to the game.

The roman word Imperium loosely meant authority/dominance, and so could be applied within reason to any European dominant power (where it holds a majority of military strength).
I used Norway as an example of an expansionist power which satisfied the modern definition of an Empire.
Another weight to my point was the fact that places which would have called themselves kingdoms are regularly called duchies in the game, which is completely unrealistic in Northern Europe.

The long and short of it is that in CK2's simplified system, kingdom makes sense (giving them "empire" status would grant them inaccurate prestige bonuses and too much sway in Europe). If Paradox decide to overhaul the system so organisational structure is no longer linked to nominal title (so a king can rule an empire, an "emperor" can rule a kingdom and a "king" can rule a duchy) then I'm all for the change. Indeed Bulgaria did call itself an Empire in the Middle Ages, and it's inaccurate to see a king of Bulgaria where an emperor should be the actual title. Equally Cornwall considered itself to be de jure Kingdom of Cornwall, and it was more or less recognised as such by Danes, Bretons , Welsh and Irish.
The leaders of Irish "duchies" called themselves Kings, as did those in Wales.
There is a lot wrong with titles in the game, and to change Bulgaria they'll have to change them all, which I just don't think they'll do.

CK2+ does a good job at adding in these titular kingdoms however, so it might be worth giving that a look (and putting your case forward to the author if it doesn't have titular empire of Bulgaria.