DLC policy of paradox is kinda sad.

[gnome109]

The only thing that ticked me off was the Old Gods Viking unit pack. I understand paying for songs or portraits, but seriously you introduce pagans and you do not even bother to give them a unique look on the map.
Ex:Muslims units looked different that Christian.

 

[Jess135]

The only thing that ticked me off was the Old Gods Viking unit pack. I understand paying for songs or portraits, but seriously you introduce pagans and you do not even bother to give them a unique look on the map.
Ex:Muslims units looked different that Christian.

They did give pagans a unique look on the map, it's called the Old Gods Viking unit pack. It was only released separately from the base game because some people don't care about pagans having a unique look and they wanted to give those people an option.

 

[StephenT]

I guess my thing is that the DLC model would never fly to such an extent with other media, and hypothetically speaking I don't see how games should be different.

I just had a look at the Audi website, out of curiosity.

Base price of an Audi S4 Avant 4-door car is £39,200.

Add 19-inch 7-spoke alloy wheels and it costs an extra £660.
Add pearl grey paint instead of basic black or white and it costs an extra £615.
Add Nappa leather upholstered sports seats for an extra £1400.
Do you want a radio fitted? £280. Speakers are £535.
Do you want a 4-year warranty? That'll be £385. No, we won't fix any bugs in your car for free forever.


In other words, the motor trade follows exactly the same DLC model as computer games, except obviously you can't download your car's wheels, you have to buy them at the garage.

 

[TheChronoMaster]

I guess my thing is that the DLC model would never fly to such an extent with other media, and hypothetically speaking I don't see how games should be different.

When you go to a theater or stadium, you get a seat.

If you want additional experience enhancers, such as food, drinks, and collectibles, you must pay for them.

When you pay for cable, you get a basic channel package.

You can get additional channels by paying more. These tend to be more specialized than the basic channels in their content.

Board games also have expansions and mini-expansions, put out over time, that cost anywhere from $5 to the price of the original game -- look at games like Arkham Horror, Settlers of Catan, and Carcassone on BoardGameGeek.

I'm struggling to come up with media that DOESN'T charge you additional fees on top of the base cost, actually.

 

[WeissRaben]

i will take a few moments to remind you that we are not talking 3D models here, but simple 2D potrait.
But im not here to discuss what is art and what is not.


Good Day to you too sir.

Pfeh. A simple portrait.

Hah! It's not like it's a 3D model.

My good man, your understanding of what "art" means doesn't extend beyond your mouth and the ridiculousness you spew with it. Good day to you as well.

 

[TheChronoMaster]

i will take a few moments to remind you that we are not talking 3D models here, but simple 2D potrait.
But im not here to discuss what is art and what is not.


Good Day to you too sir.

What about the 3D model DLCs, like the Hundred Years War units, or the Conquistador pack? Or do those also not count for some reason I am sure you can justify.

 

[alanschu]

Splitting the DLC is more about "letting those that don't care save some money" than anything else.

Which is something I don't mind at all.

 

[Grell74]

The issue I have with this DLC model is that core game mechanics that are lacking are not improved in any meaningful way. Instead gimmicky overpowered easily marketable DLCs are released. After the $100+ worth of DLC for CK2 no significant improvements have been made to what is arguably the core of the game feudal france (and HRE). The crusade system is lacklustre, only the most recent DLC had an effect on the very barebones Papcy and Catholic system. The traits, core feudal events and basic gameplay hasnt improved much and wont.

I see the same thing with EU4, peripheral DLC (Byza, USA, which dont effect most players and playthroughs), and Colonisation (still minimal effect on France or HRE). Core game events decisions and the lack of anything to do during peace will only come in "free patches" so wont get more than a cursory look by the devs.

Chrono in your desperation to play the posting warrior and belittle another viewpoint I notice you managed to avoid dicussing what this topic is about in your comments on CK1. DV was a content packed fairly priced expansion that completely overhauled base game mechanics and massively improved the base game for all playable nations: feudal relations with traits, rivals, fosterlings, realm stability and hundereds of events. As CK2 has shown in this brave new world of PI and DLC moneterisation the base game will be left fallow.

CK1 came out many years ago, in fact, I want to say it's been about 9 years.


The game was released with only Christians playable.

Nothing differentiated Orthodox and Catholic Christians.

Islam was not playable, nor did the expansion make Islam playable.

Pagans were not playable, nor did the expansion make pagans playable.

There was a bare minimum of flavor events of any sort.

The game was released in such a buggy, unfinished, "we ran out of budget" state that Paradox, who were the PUBLISHERS, not the developers, had to step in and patch and expand the game until such time as it was FUNCTIONAL, and modders had to step in past that to make it actually fun. It was impractical for Paradox to do anything more with the game, since it'd be at a loss.

Let me know if you still hold that ridiculous belief.

 

[Zander]

So, yes. Granting as an assumption the validity of making money writing video games at all, I see nothing in Paradox's DLC model for EU4 and CK2 that is inferior to what went before.

Well, Paradox has always supported its products with years of bug fixes and patches, so in that sense this IS inferior to what went before. It's never been a "chuck it over the wall" studio, which is why I've always been such a fan. Conversely, I agree that the new model leads to more frequent updates and more new stuff.

I'm not a huge fan of the DLC model in general, since it undeniably leads to resources being channeled into stuff that can be charged for rather than stuff that improves the game for everyone. That being said, I find Paradox's model a pretty good one, except for their recent tendency to pull non-cosmetic stuff out of the base game so they can sell more day 1 DLC.

 

[jonnydesperado]

I always feel this argument comes down to the basic idea of blaming a company in a capitalistic system for wanting to make (more) money.

Which is complete bullshit.

If you are critical of capitalism itself, work against the system. If you don't like buying certain goods and services, do not.

 

[mcmanusaur]

I just had a look at the Audi website, out of curiosity.

Base price of an Audi S4 Avant 4-door car is £39,200.

Add 19-inch 7-spoke alloy wheels and it costs an extra £660.
Add pearl grey paint instead of basic black or white and it costs an extra £615.
Add Nappa leather upholstered sports seats for an extra £1400.
Do you want a radio fitted? £280. Speakers are £535.
Do you want a 4-year warranty? That'll be £385. No, we won't fix any bugs in your car for free forever.

In other words, the motor trade follows exactly the same DLC model as computer games, except obviously you can't download your car's wheels, you have to buy them at the garage.

When you go to a theater or stadium, you get a seat.

If you want additional experience enhancers, such as food, drinks, and collectibles, you must pay for them.

When you pay for cable, you get a basic channel package.

You can get additional channels by paying more. These tend to be more specialized than the basic channels in their content.

Board games also have expansions and mini-expansions, put out over time, that cost anywhere from $5 to the price of the original game -- look at games like Arkham Horror, Settlers of Catan, and Carcassone on BoardGameGeek.

I'm struggling to come up with media that DOESN'T charge you additional fees on top of the base cost, actually.

"Knowing what media are" fail.

The automobile industry, stadiums/concert venues, and cable packages are all invalid comparisons. Comparison to other media would be books, films, tv shows (which are episodic, but that's a different matter), etc. Board games is a valid comparison, but there the "DLC model" is far less prevalent than in video games, so the point still stands.

 

[Stratagyfan101]

My take on Paradox's DLC policy is favorable. If I want patch 1.4 I don't have to buy 60$ worth of DLC just to get a bug fix, which is how the previous model worked. I do think the current DLC model doesn't quite do as much changing of existing mechanics that previous expansions did.

 

[James The 1st]

"Knowing what media are" fail.

The automobile industry, stadiums/concert venues, and cable packages are all invalid comparisons. Comparison to other media would be books, films, tv shows (which are episodic, but that's a different matter), etc. Board games is a valid comparison, but there the "DLC model" is far less prevalent than in video games, so the point still stands.

Actually, DLC or expansions are hugely prevalent in the boardgame world. Pretty much any recently released boardgame that does well gets an expansion or two. Just look at Carcassone, Power Grid, Agricola, Ticket to Ride, Dominion, anything Fantasy Flight makes ect.

 

[mcmanusaur]

Actually, DLC or expansions are hugely prevalent in the boardgame world. Pretty much any recently released boardgame that does well gets an expansion or two.

Well, at any rate what is it about games (digital or otherwise) compared to other media that they should have a "DLC model" and other media shouldn't?

 

[TheChronoMaster]

The issue I have with this DLC model is that core game mechanics that are lacking are not improved in any meaningful way. Instead gimmicky overpowered easily marketable DLCs are released. After the $100+ worth of DLC for CK2 no significant improvements have been made to what is arguably the core of the game feudal france (and HRE). The crusade system is lacklustre, only the most recent DLC had an effect on the very barebones Papcy and Catholic system. The traits, core feudal events and basic gameplay hasnt improved much and wont.

I see the same thing with EU4, peripheral DLC (Byza, USA, which dont effect most players and playthroughs), and Colonisation (still minimal effect on France or HRE). Core game events decisions and the lack of anything to do during peace will only come in "free patches" so wont get more than a cursory look by the devs.

Chrono in your desperation to play the posting warrior and belittle another viewpoint I notice you managed to avoid dicussing what this topic is about in your comments on CK1. DV was a content packed fairly priced expansion that completely overhauled base game mechanics and massively improved the base game for all playable nations: feudal relations with traits, rivals, fosterlings, realm stability and hundereds of events. As CK2 has shown in this brave new world of PI and DLC moneterisation the base game will be left fallow.

Please go play 1.0 CK2 again, you clearly don't remember it if you think the game as of the 2.0 patch has 'not improved much', jeezum.

The faction system, revised separation of plots and ambitions, a metric frigton of new titles, a redrawn map with additional provinces including a large expansion of African provinces, improvements to the AI's handling of Islamic and Republican states (and also how they are modelled), improvements to claims in the separation of 'weak' and 'strong' claims, additional succession types, a completely redone technology system, ironman mode, the seperation of Miaphysite into its own Christian branch, the addition of raiders (done in a patch, so you will see its effects even if you just play as a Christian lord bordering them with zero expansions), UI enhancements including a lot of additional mapmodes (and the ability to only show the ones that you need at any given time), revisions to the combat system (The addition of commander traits, combat modifiers, and chokepoints), a complete overhaul of the levy system for player ease of use, do I really need to keep going?

Seriously, if you have access to it, play 1.0 CK2, or the demo. Then play 2.0.3 with all your DLC disabled.

Deus Vult made a terrible game playable. CK2's patches and expansions have made an already great game better.

 

[James The 1st]

Well, at any rate what is it about games (digital or otherwise) compared to other media that they should have a "DLC model" and other media shouldn't?

Because games are expandable and other forms of media aren't?

 

[gnome109]

They did give pagans a unique look on the map, it's called the Old Gods Viking unit pack. It was only released separately from the base game because some people don't care about pagans having a unique look and they wanted to give those people an option.

Yeah, to rephrase, I was disappointed that a simple unit skin was not included with the Old Gods, while Muslim units were included in Sword of Islam. I felt quite annoyed when I had spent $15 for an expansion and they were nickel and diming me for $2. Also even if I did not purchase Conquest of Paradise's dlc packs (Which I did :laugh I would still see a difference between European units and New World units. Without the Viking pack your unit stacks are modeled as carbon copies of Christian ones. Paradox not including even a basic unit model surprised me. Other than that I am highly satisfied with there new model for expansions.

 

[mcmanusaur]

Because games are expandable and other forms of media aren't?

Well, that's pretty much a tautology, isn't it? What makes game expandable compared to other media?

 

[TheChronoMaster]

Well, at any rate what is it about games (digital or otherwise) compared to other media that they should have a "DLC model" and other media shouldn't?

Have you ever heard of Deleted Scenes for movies released on DVDs, bonus clips inserted into TV Shows (or redrawn sequences for cartoons or anime) for their box set releases, later revisions and releases of books (See: The Hobbit, for one, which Tolkein revised to provide a setup for The Lord of the Rings' version of Gollum, almost entirely rewriting the Riddles in the Dark sequence), etc? There's also ongoing comic stories that have, for instance, tie-in books from other lines that provide additional backstory or an alternate perspective, or have additional content in the later collected editions.

No of course you haven't, because you can only think of bonus content in the context of games.

 

[mcmanusaur]

Have you ever heard of Deleted Scenes for movies released on DVDs, bonus clips inserted into TV Shows (or redrawn sequences for cartoons or anime) for their box set releases, later revisions and releases of books (See: The Hobbit, for one, which Tolkein revised to provide a setup for The Lord of the Rings' version of Gollum, almost entirely rewriting the Riddles in the Dark sequence), etc? There's also ongoing comic stories that have, for instance, tie-in books from other lines that provide additional backstory or an alternate perspective, or have additional content in the later collected editions.

No of course you haven't, because you can only think of bonus content in the context of games.

Nothing personal, but facepalm. I give up, clearly people here are incapable of making valid analogical comparisons. Additionally, the level of casuistry in debates on these forums is staggering (the same thing that happens when people use obscure historical examples to justify a general mechanic).

Deleted scenes, re-issues, episodic series and such are just NOT analogous to DLC/expansions. And the fact that you can dig up a handful of examples doesn't change the fact such things have much less presence in the markets for other media than DLC does in the games business. Okay, so SOME bonus content exists for other media, but that's not the basis for whole business strategies like the DLC model is. Feel free to deny it, but there it is.

My question (if anyone is inclined to address it rather than nitpick) is why DLC should be so important for games when bonus content is clearly less important for other media. I suppose that it has to do with being able to milk your existing tech for the most money, but that doesn't mean consumers have to be happy about it.