DLC idea - Qabila - Desert tribes, Slaves, Cadet branches and enhanced islam

elvain

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so, what would you prefer as next chapter?

There are 2-3 possibilities:
1) religious orders (Almoravids, Qarmatians) as another possible government
2) expanded role of Islam in game (role of imams, qadis-islamic judges etc.)
3) The Madrasas and universities - new possibilities of education in both Islam and Christianity (possibly part of the latter)
 

loup99

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3) The Madrasas and universities - new possibilities of education in both Islam and Christianity (possibly part of the latter)
I'm interested in this part.
 

nkibilko

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There's already an entire expansion focused on Islam, and it was the first expansion for this game.... Sword of Islam?

If any religion or culture gets a SECOND dlc to focus on them i'm sure it would be Norse or Christians long before another islam dlc.
 
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elvain

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There's already an entire expansion focused on Islam, and it was the first expansion for this game.... Sword of Islam?

If any religion or culture gets a SECOND dlc to focus on them i'm sure it would be Norse or Christians long before another islam dlc.
1) This is not DLC dedicated to Islam exclusively, it is mainly for the desert tribes (including Pagan and Christian ones) and their mechanics, who did not receive any DLC so far. Yes, it mainly uses mechanics known in the muslim world, but inland trade republics, religious orders, mardasas or universities, these are all mechanics which can work for other religions aswell. Instead of Sword od Islam2, this would be more like Charlemagne or Horse lords, which expanded mechanics for certain type of Pagans.
2) it is meant to include also new Start date, where these mechanics would have great usage, so again more like Charlemagne than SoI.
3) Even if the PDS would use only the islamic part of this concept, and this could be therefore considered as second muslim DLC, it is not us who is to decide whether there will be this kind of DLC or some other. Therefore any discussion about this without PDS stuff is totally pointless.
I'm interested in this part.
good :)
 
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Fishman786

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Just to say, I really hope Paradox is reading this, it seems like a brilliant idea and I hope there is another Islam-related expansion.
 

Finnway

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If any religion or culture gets a SECOND dlc to focus on them i'm sure it would be Norse or Christians long before another islam dlc.
Technically - Norse has already had a second DLC. In fact, I'd say Norse has had more mechanics added to simulate their culture than any other culture besides Christians.
  • Raiding.
  • Adventurers.
  • Pagan religions.
  • Tribal government.
  • Dynamic mercenaries.
At this point, there isn't much left to add for Norman/Norse characters. Especially when compared to the shallow depiction other cultures in-game get.
 

Finnway

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Not a single one of your bullet points is a Norse exclusive feature...
No duh, Sherlock. But each one of them is necessary for simulating Norse/Norman culture...
 
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elvain

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If I may ask you, please stay civil here.

Norse had received special treatment. Just like those mechanics were jot added exclusively to the Norse, they were added either first to them(raiding), or were modelled around the norse way (pagan religion, tribal government), not of the others who use it too.

Hence I don't understand a point against these ideas in this thread, as vast majority of them (perhaps except the ghulams) is not exclusively muslim. So again there is no point in leading the discussion this way
 
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elvain

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Chapter 6 - The madrasas and universities

Madrasas should mean what they were in middle ages - instead of meaning ordinary shools they would be high profile islamic schools.
They would be allowed if Legalism and Church/religious infrastructure are at least on level 2.

Madrasa would be a structure which could be built only in cities in provinces with 5 or more holdings. The number of Madrasas would be however limited to max 1 per de-jure duchy and 5 per de-facto kingdom.
Then in the religious screen there would be a special window where all madrasas could be overviewed (not only those under player's rule, but also others. There one could overview the head of each madrasa (mudarris) and his 2 assistents (mu'ids - 1 mu'id) and the focus of said Madrasa.

Usualy the Mudarris (the head of Madrasa) is appointed by the ruler. He can invite to this function any muslim from the entire islamic world (just like the brides are chosen), he only needs the scholar to agree. The assistents (mu'ids) are chosen by the AI from among muslim clerics and judges (qadis) in the realm.

Focus of Madrasa
Each madrasa has focus on one of various scholarly areas
  • islamic law (fiqh) - is tied to bonuses in learning, stewardship and legalism and majesty technologies
  • exegesis of the Qur'an (tafsir) / philosophy - tied to bonuses in learning and piety and religious customs
  • mathematics - tied to bonuses in stewardship and economic technologies
  • medicine - bonuses in learning and stewardship and tolerance and military organization technologies
  • art of war - bonuses in martial skills and military technologies
  • rhetoric - bonuses in diplomacy, noble customs and majesty
Each of the focuses has several event chains tied to the particular type and depending on the character traits of the mudarris. For instance the legal focus will trigger various legal issues with interpretations of the law in vaarious aspects between pure people and nobles, religious minorities, muslims travelling and dying abroad etc. - each of them triggering emotions among the religious class with impact on relations with various types of characters, exegesis and philosophy events would be connected to philosphical disputations and limits of knowledge - again influencing mainly piety and relations with religious characters versus technology advances. Mathematics events would be connected to astronomic an other technical discoveries, medicine is IMHO uite obvious - limits of medicine research and problems it creates with religious class.. rhetoric and art of war are IMHO also quite obvious - disputations on one hand and military advances on the other, each of them causing some possible misconducts.

Madrasa as tool for internal politics

The Madrasa will provide various bonuses to the ruler and/or his capital province depending on Madrasa's focus and traits of the Mudarris.

Generaly, if the Mudarris is Mu'tazilite, the Madrasa adds technology bonuses, but combination of Mu'tazilite Mudarris and law, exegesis/philosophy or medicine causes all islamic clerics (except mu'tazilites) to dislike the ruler (-10 relations, if they are asharite, it would be -20).
OTOH, if the Mudarris is asharite, the Madrasa gives nice piety and prestige bonuses (as well as it adds positive bonuses to all islamic clerics except mu'tazilites)

Madrasa as educational institution
Madrasa will of course work also as educational institution. It would be something between the old educational system and the new one introduced in conclave.
instead of guardian (or education focus, if you have Conclave) each youngling would be sent to some Madrasa and there he/she would learn focus and traits of the Mudarris.

Universities would be very similar with one tiny, but very important difference, which is the appointment of the university head - the rector, and the composition of his team (there would always be at least 3 deans (decanus). The ruler will have no influence on the person of the rector, who will be elected by the body of the deans (from among the deans and other clerics from within the realm).

Each madrasa and university may also have its own prestige (which will depend on the prestige, piety and technology points it provided to its province and it would make it more (or less) attractive for the scholars to accept leadership there.

There also might be some small difference between the schools in shiite and sunni islam, but that will be part of another chapter or discussion.
 
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Juniper7

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I would like to hear more about 2) expanded role of Islam next. :)

I love everything you've added since I last checked the thread, the madras system in particular sounds great, as well as the expanded parts for Qabila and Asabiyah.

This thread prompted me to go to the library and loan the Muqaddimah. All I can say is wow! Thank you Elvan so much for introducing this book to me, it's phenomenal! :)
 
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PK_AZ

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They would be allowed if Legalism and Church/religious infrastructure are at least on level 2.
Universities would be very similar
I don't know about madrassas, but AFAIK universities were late middle ages thing - 5 tech level seems more appropriate.

Also, how it works with scholarship focus?
 

NathanD77

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Too much work on one religion . Myself I would rather see the eastern Pagan and tribal groups worked on . Or the Christian religions expanded upon , such as theocracy .
 
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elvain

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I would like to hear more about 2) expanded role of Islam next. :)

I love everything you've added since I last checked the thread, the madras system in particular sounds great, as well as the expanded parts for Qabila and Asabiyah.

This thread prompted me to go to the library and loan the Muqaddimah. All I can say is wow! Thank you Elvan so much for introducing this book to me, it's phenomenal! :)
Thanks. Yup, the book is great. I'm glad I could have helped you finding it :)
The role of Islam is a little more complex issue, which, as you have probably found out, is connected to many other parts of this concept, so even though the general concept is done, it will take some time to put down the detailed conections to each aspect of this DLC concept.

I don't know about madrassas, but AFAIK universities were late middle ages thing - 5 tech level seems more appropriate.
As for Madrasas, the first ones are supposed to be in 9th century. During the second half of 11th century they were being founded across the Eastern Islamic world, so the sugested technology requirements are IMHO okay. As for Universities I do agree that the requirements might be little higher, but I don't think it should be higher than 4, because if the Western Europe was as developed as the Middle East Universities might have probably emerged sooner. So I would suggest 3-4.
Anyway, in the description I said they should work similarily, not the same. There might be other details which would make universities differ from Madrasas little more.
(i.e. I can imagine that with technologies at level 2, there would be 1 university per de-facto kingdom limit. Then at certain levels, Universities could, unlike the Madrasas, develop and could break down into faculties and therefore the player could chose not between universities, but faculties - but that's just a speculation about one possible way to make them more different).

Also, how it works with scholarship focus?
Not sure if I understood you well.

But one thing I forgot to note is that the students at universities and madrasas should be little older than the children who start their education, they shouldn't be there sooned than at their 12.

Too much work on one religion . Myself I would rather see the eastern Pagan and tribal groups worked on . Or the Christian religions expanded upon , such as theocracy .

I do understand that you prefer some other DLC. Funny thing is that you are against a DLC proposal, which wants to make theorcracies playable - in form of creating playable government for religious orders.
Perhaps you might also noticed that the last few posts are about Scholarly institutions - not only Madrasas, but also Universities - those Christian universities. Then the DLC concept offers a government system for tribes in the Desert - including Christians and West Africans. Believe me, this is not expansion dedicated exclusively to Islam.
Yet fair enough that you - as the only one who is against this proposal - bothered to explain your statement. Then I really recomend you to read at least the OP so you would find out that this DLC offers some of the things you would like to see... instead ;)
 

yezhanquan

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Al-Azhar was founded late 10th Century CE. Curiously, were there any other Muslim universities?

On another note, a ruler who found the first university of any religion should have good prestige attached to it.
 
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elvain

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Al-Azhar was founded late 10th Century CE. Curiously, were there any other Muslim universities?

On another note, a ruler who found the first university of any religion should have good prestige attached to it.
Wiki is your friend. Just search madrasa. It's not that hard.

As for the second part, check Madrasa and internal politics - it's already there
 

elvain

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I would like to hear more about 2) expanded role of Islam next. :)
This won't be a propper chapter on this topic but rather a basic outline, but since I am quite busy IRL now and will be for the next 2 weeks I think it would be nice to show the general direction without details and see if it can inspire a discussion on details... or whatever.

The main idea is in fac introduction of Islamic clergy into the game, because it played (and still plays) very important role in the in Muslim societies.
In Ck2 the temple holdings are controlled by feudal holders, which is correct, because in reality the muslim clergy, unlike the Christian, did not control land. But with this step the clergy virtually disappeared, which is problematic.

The plan is to introduce an Islamic cleric - Imam - to every county (or perhaps even holding), a character which would be independent of provincial holder's will (would be auto-generated and not appointed by the player/AI). This Imam, or in larger realms collective of Imams, would represent a natural religious opposition to the player.

In religious window there would be a list of all these Imams and the player/ruler could check their relations towards him. The ruler can always imprison the Imam whenever he wants as these characters have no political/military power. OTOH they can create factions and be faction leaders, and demand their own lieges (local sheykhs/counts or emirs/dukes) to join them. Furthemore they can ask other military leaders within your realm to join their faction - either the mamluk leaders, or members of the Qabila - the tribe.
Each local ruler or mercenary might (and sooner or later will) get an event that certain Imam asks him to join the faction to depose the ruler, because the top liege is not considered religious enough. Joining the faction means postitive relations with all clerics, not joining means negative relations. If the military leader is pious, he obviously tends to support this faction.

This is basically what completes the image of how should the things in his part of world function.

In the Mulk government the rulers have relatively rich financial resources which they can spend on their mercenary armies. Their basic army is relatively weak so they have to rely on other relatively independent military units such as the tribe (Qabila) and Slave armies (Ghulams) - these can be relatively faithfull. And then there is the religious nomenclature - it does not hold any real power, but can create relatively dangerous challenge to the ruler's power through factions.

In general - if the ruler is strong and has the diverse elements of his realm faithfully tied to himself, he can afford to build strong empire and even opose the religious nomenclature. But the weaker he is and the less he can rely on faithfullness of his vasals, the more he must comply with the feelings of his religious class.
OTOH, he has various other tools to appease this class - he can support Islamic teachings on his madrasas and be very cautious at development of some un-islamic inovations. But that means risking of technologic stagnation... The best way is the right ballancing between the family, the tribe, the slave military leaders and the clergy. A new dynasty with many titles to be assigned it isn't a hard job. But harder and harder in the 2nd and 3rd generation of rulers.
 
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elvain

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Can you tie the Ulema to the Decadence mechanic? So as Decadence goes up they get more and more freedoms to oppose the regime, but If Decadence is low they are more likely to sit happily?
I wouldn't tie it, because it should be able to work independently for those who don't have SoI.
But of course in combination with SoI it would work like this.
Any DLC that implements even some of the features outlined by you, I would buy within seconds of release lol.
thanks. It'pleasant to read this
 
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