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elvain

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I'm liking the innovation I see here, but I think it would be more attractive if the actual mechanics were translated into English. So Qabila would be called tribal confederation, Asabiya becomes solidarity, etc. That way even if someone has very little knowledge of Islamic history they get a better idea of what was actually going on.
Yup, could be.
I just thought that one-word name might sound better. But "Lords of the desert", "Desert riders" or whatever else might be even more catchy. I just realized that the game uses some arabic names for some specific features,
It all depends how we use them. We already have Iqta government, we chose choef Qadi, so there could be Mulk and Qabila used for governments too IMHO, but when talking about game's tools, you're totally right that Tribal confederation and Tribal coherence would be better. I must admit that I like the sound of those arabic names and I am using them also because I'm taking many of those ideas from Ibn Khaldun's Muqqadimah, so using his terminology.
But you're right, having them translated into English might be better/easier to understand.
 
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yezhanquan

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I somehow overlooked this part of message, could you be more specific about this, please?
Did you think that this concept suggests it, or that it's the way desert nomads existed and it should work like this?

They surely were much more warlike than the sedentary populations (especially of the Middle East), but IMHO not this much.

Neither, actually. I meant it's good that you're not pursuing such a course of action. And yeah, economy management is IMO an important part of peace time activities.
 

illathid

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Yup, could be.
I just thought that one-word name might sound better. But "Lords of the desert", "Desert riders" or whatever else might be even more catchy. I just realized that the game uses some arabic names for some specific features,
It all depends how we use them. We already have Iqta government, we chose choef Qadi, so there could be Mulk and Qabila used for governments too IMHO, but when talking about game's tools, you're totally right that Tribal confederation and Tribal solidarity would be better. I must admit that I like the sound of those arabic names and I am using them also because I'm taking many of those ideas from Ibn Khaldun's Muqqadimah, so using his terminology.
But you're right, having them translated into English might be better/easier to understand.
Yeah, it's hard to establish a brightline rule here. That said what I would base it on is the existence of english alternates in game already, if that makes any sense. So Mulk and Qabila could be used for government types as there's also feudal, republics, theocracy, etc. So it's easy enough to latch in on what it is. Same with the islamic names for the different title tiers. But there's no real alternate in existence right now for the Qabila screen or what Asabiya is supposed to represent, so I would change those into English. I understand the desire to keep everything consistent with Ibn Khaldun's Muqqadimah though.

I also think Qabila works as a name for the putative DLC, but a subtitle might be nice too. :)
 
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elvain

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Yeah, it's hard to establish a brightline rule here. That said what I would base it on is the existence of english alternates in game already, if that makes any sense. So Mulk and Qabila could be used for government types as there's also feudal, republics, theocracy, etc. So it's easy enough to latch in on what it is. Same with the islamic names for the different title tiers. But there's no real alternate in existence right now for the Qabila screen or what Asabiya is supposed to represent, so I would change those into English. I understand the desire to keep everything consistent with Ibn Khaldun's Muqqadimah though.

I also think Qabila works as a name for the putative DLC, but a subtitle might be nice too. :)
Yup, that's how I imagine it could work... if it ever catches Paradox's interest :)
Qabila - the Desert riders, or Qabila - the Lords of the Desert, or Qabila - Tribes of the Desert could work, but they could perhaps do also without the Qabila too. Anyway, that's something which is entirely up on Paradox and its marketing department.

My task should mainly be to provide them as many interesting ideas as possible. Hopefully next chapter could be done by saturday
 

Hector of Troy

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It has probably already caught their attention.

However, it looks like the developers have already tapped out and conceded defeat. They know the current system is bad. Still, it seems very unlikely anything is going to change until CK3.
 

elvain

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It has probably already caught their attention.

However, it looks like the developers have already tapped out and conceded defeat. They know the current system is bad. Still, it seems very unlikely anything is going to change until CK3.
Do you really think so? Conceded defeat?
The system is broken, we all know that. They already tried to fix it several times, but failed. I believe it is simply because the base of the system (if we speak about decadence) us misunderstanding of the concept it tries to follow. Is there any particular statement where they say that they rule out any attempts to fix it or where they rule out touching muslim mechanics before CK3?

If not, I believe this is sheer speculation and there is no point in doing it.
 
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yezhanquan

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Doomdark did an interview whereby he hinted that CK 2 may not receive further "big" DLCs.

Fåhraeus: There are plans for a few more expansions, but I think Conclave will be the last one to drastically alter (or expand on) the core mechanics. The final expansions for CK2 will be more akin to " Way of Life ", but with different themes.
 

elvain

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Doomdark did an interview whereby he hinted that CK 2 may not receive further "big" DLCs.
I read that interview. His words are not exactly what you say:
There are plans for a few more expansions, but I think Conclave will be the last one to drastically alter (or expand on) the core mechanics. The final expansions for CK2 will be more akin to " Way of Life ", but with different themes.
Drastic change of core mechanics is what he rules out. Right, but he doesn't say "no big DLC" and certainly he doesn't rule out expanding mechanics of not-core mechanics. The question is whether we consider the desert tribes (who have been ignored so far) as game's "core". The fact that this area has been ignored (except failed attempts to fix some essential problems) since june 2012 IMHO suggests that it isn't very core part of game.
 
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elvain

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really, this is pointless. Do you see into Doomdark's head to know what "more akin to Way of Life" means?
Way of life expanded some already existing mechanics and have introduced some other. So does this suggestion.

But okay, if you mind that people here are pouring ideas for Paradox how to improve the game, then okay, I really see no reason why should I waste my time doing this to deal with this kind of comments. If your goal was to stop me from suggesting improvements, you have acheived it.
 

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This sounds pretty good. Muslims are by far the group I play the least because I do not find their mechanics engaging at all.
 

yezhanquan

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This sounds pretty good. Muslims are by far the group I play the least because I do not find their mechanics engaging at all.

Within the present mechanics, I find that the AI rarely goes on the haj. The haj being an important part of Islam, I pretty much don't understand why the AI isn't programmed to do it on a more regular basis.
 

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Doomdark did an interview whereby he hinted that CK 2 may not receive further "big" DLCs.

Fåhraeus: There are plans for a few more expansions, but I think Conclave will be the last one to drastically alter (or expand on) the core mechanics. The final expansions for CK2 will be more akin to " Way of Life ", but with different themes.
Doomdark can say whatever he wants, but there won't be any more small DLCs like Way of Life, they just sell too badly. Only big DLCs are the future, according to Johan, the EVP. So Way of Life-sized DLCs is a definitive and clear no.

EDIT: Although I believe this is off-topic, and the focus should be on Elvain's suggestion
 
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Hector of Troy

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But okay, if you mind that people here are pouring ideas for Paradox how to improve the game, then okay, I really see no reason why should I waste my time doing this to deal with this kind of comments. If your goal was to stop me from suggesting improvements, you have acheived it.

I like very much the ideas shared in this thread, and of course it's nobody's goal to stop you from suggesting them. Quite the opposite. I for one would be happy to be able to play Muslim dynasties, before CK3 comes out, and still have a good time.

And you're right, it's just speculation on my part. For some reason, I have in mind the notion that the developers will spend time from now on not messing around too much with core mechanics. I hope I am wrong.

Besides the nice suggestions, this thread also carries the purpose of reminding them the current Decadence system is not good, and terribly balanced as well.
 

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I would really like to keep this thread clean from speculations whether the developers will do this or that or what they want to do or not. There is absolutely no way we would resolve it, it is total waste of time to write those words. Furthemore it is extremely demotivating to write suggestions and then read such speculations.

Sure, We all know that there is very low probability that any player/fan's suggestion will make it into the game. It, however, makes no sense to remind it in every second post in a thread devoted to brainstorming ideas how to improve the game.
But reading "hey, you can write whatever you want and they still won't include it" in a thread devoted to brainstorming the ideas just feels like the author of such words wants it to happen (that Paradox won't take this into account).

This sounds pretty good. Muslims are by far the group I play the least because I do not find their mechanics engaging at all.
I understand you. And frankly, despite being immensely interested in this region I don't play CK2 Muslims either, because it's too repetitive and boring. You can expand thanks to much freer CBs, but once you get bored by DoWing anyone you want anytime, there's basically nothing you can do. Well, yes, you can observe ramadans every year, and go for hajj with every new ruler to get some piety to keep your decadence low (or you can do it via tyrany or controlling their fertility via not assigning them any land), but after 2nd generation in one game you won't face nothing new.

For instance this concept was meant to make those gamey policies much harder, because if ruler's clan members won't get land, the clan's asabiya will drop and the effect of low Asabiya will be similar to high decadence - overally weaker state and higher risk of facing an invasion or revolt.
 
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part 5 - more detailed view on Asabiya

'Asabiya
It is internal tribal coherence, a driving force of Arab societies as described by Ibn Khaldun in his Muqaddimah. It is a value, perhaps between 0 and 100, which increases or decreases depending on how the ruler treats his own clan and tribe (Qabila). The goal is to keep Asabiya as high as possible.
Each dynasty/clan is influenced by 2 Asabiyas. The clan's Asabiya and the tribe's Asabiya.


The Clan's Asabiya
is based on ruler's prestige and relations inside the clan as well as how the particular clan treats other clans of his own tribe (Qabila).
The base number is ruler's prestige divided by his age. Then for every ruler's pious or prestigeous action (or the oposite) the clan receives either positive or negative points (like in decadence).
Examples of positive asabiya points are marriage with member of another clan within the same Qabila, marriage within the own clan (but not incest!), honoring a call to war from another member of the same clan or Qabila, granting a landed or honorary title to a member of own clan or Qabila, appointing a clan or Qabila member to a council etc.
The clan's Asabiya influences:

  • relations of other clan members to the ruler and to each other (+/- point for every point of Asabiya)
  • numeric strength of clan's army (the Ashira, the tribe) – it influences the manpower
  • morale of clan's army (the Ashira, the tribe)
  • ability of the clan to claim leadership in the entire Qabila
  • chance and length of straightening up a decadent dynasty/clan member
If clan's Asabiya of a settled clan is very high and the ruler who holds the main title isn't the one with highest prestige, the ruler is challenged by pretender, who would inherit the leadership if the clan was nomadic (the one with highest prestige per age). Due to high Asabiya the tribe will follow the tribal pretender (except those parts of clan which have close ties to the challenged ruler), and if victorious the pretender takes the throne, leaving the ruler with some lower title. In case of white peace, the pretender holds his titles, if defender wins, the pretender gets imprisoned. Every year of such war means -1 clan Asabiya. (Example – Qawurd's revolt against Malik-Shah in the Seljuk empire and later Seljuk internal inheritance wars – according to tribal traditions Qawurd would have been the next leader after the death of Alp Arslan instead of young Malik-Shah. The later wars lasted long and wekened the clan's Asabiya so much, that the winning ruler Sanjar had to rely on other forms of army – thus wekening clan's Asabiya even more – it later evolved into Qabila invasion of the Oghuz clans, which will be described later under Qabila's Asabiya).

The Qabila's Asabiya
Qabila's Asabiya means solidarity of the whole tribal confederation (Qabila). It is based on combination of 2 values: a) average of all Qabila's clans and b) the prestige per age of ruler of the leading clan. It is strenghtened by every positive interaction between the clans (marriage, honored alliance, granted land to other clan's member etc.)

It influences
  • the chance of clans helping each other in a war
  • adds small bonus/malus to all clans' armies morale
  • the strength of Qabila revolt against a weak/decadent clan
  • the chance that Qabila will unite and invade some neighbouring kingdom (the stronger Asabia, the higher chance of invasion)
If the Qabila's Asabiya is high, while some of its clans has low Asabiya (I.e. the difference is 40+), there is high chance of Tribal invasion event – the tribe will unite and destroy the falling clan (absorb it) – the falling clan is expelled from the Qabila and the Qabila launches tribal invasion. If that is successful, the targeted clan disappears (Game over) and all its power (manpower, land and titles) is confiscated by the leading clan of the Qabila. (some members of the defeated clan may emerge at the fringes of Islamic world as adventurers and restore the dynasty – like the Umayyads). This kind of invasion can take even generations to happen – the clan's Asabiya can be constantly low, but as long as the Qabila's Asabiya isn't high enough the Qabila invasion doesn't happen. (Example: the Abbasid revolt against Umayyads or above mentioned Oghuz invasion into Seljuk empire in the times of Sanjar).

If the Qabila's Asabiya is low, the whole confederation is more vulnerable to foreign attacks, its member clans may be subordinated by neighbouring rulers and if the Asabiya drops below certain level, it may split – each clan would become its own Qabila and can be subject of invasions of bordering Qabilas, which – if they win – can absorb the clan into another clan (the leading clan of attacking Qabila).

As can be seen the tribal coherence– Asabia – can work independently of existing mechanic of Decadence. On the other hand it functions as its counter-definition. Asabiya requires the player to assign land to his clan/dynasty members, which is often used tactic to prevent rising decadence. Combination of these 2 mechanics can therefore lead to higher impact of decadence on muslim countries. OTOH the Asabiya is ballancing force to decadence as it also influences morale of the army and other things.
 
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I'm excited to see what other ideas you have here, thus far everything is looking fantastic. Many of the problems that you, theKing1988, and I have been working around recently with SWMH, my submod, and Ibn Battuta's Legacy would be MUCH improved by being able to interact with the mechanics you outline here.

Even if PDS doesn't plan on making a DLC out of this, perhaps they could consider releasing more hard-coded traits to modders to allow us to build this system. I'm not sure how many systems one can currently tack on to governments. I know at least you would need to add the ability to fully mod Decadence beyond what is currently allowed, including adding a new complementary decadence-like sub-system, and the Ghulam system would probably need to bring out some hard-coded restrictions into the land of the moddable.
 
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I'm excited to see what other ideas you have here, thus far everything is looking fantastic. Many of the problems that you, theKing1988, and I have been working around recently with SWMH, my submod, and Ibn Battuta's Legacy would be MUCH improved by being able to interact with the mechanics you outline here.

Even if PDS doesn't plan on making a DLC out of this, perhaps they could consider releasing more hard-coded traits to modders to allow us to build this system. I'm not sure how many systems one can currently tack on to governments. I know at least you would need to add the ability to fully mod Decadence beyond what is currently allowed, including adding a new complementary decadence-like sub-system, and the Ghulam system would probably need to bring out some hard-coded restrictions into the land of the moddable.

Yup,
unlocking some hardcoded things would probably be necessary if this could only be implemented as a mod. Some time ago I have discussed implementation of some (very) limited parts of this concept (long before it started becoming an elaborated concept) with @zijistark, and we have always came across a problem that it is not moddable. And after another (yet) short discussion with CK2+ team (discussion based on incomplete information about some basics of this concept), it will be hard to integrate it without largely expanded modding possibilities.
 

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I really like these ideas, but if you want to get the full slave trade, that would require a bit of a southern map extension. Which wouldn't bee too bad of a thing. Might even be able to include the yorumba, or other west africans as well as east africa. I always did find it a bit anachronistic that they only included northern somali lands.
 

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I really like these ideas, but if you want to get the full slave trade, that would require a bit of a southern map extension. Which wouldn't bee too bad of a thing. Might even be able to include the yorumba, or other west africans as well as east africa. I always did find it a bit anachronistic that they only included northern somali lands.

It would help but I don't think it's absolutely necessary. One one hand it would be nice if the rulers could do that (on their raids into pagan/unbeliever lands they could capture people and then sell them).

But on the other hand it might cause problems if muslims or christians would be too successful in converting the pagans and the sources might dry out, so for game purpouses it might work better as I planned it - a decision. A Muslim or a Christian ruler on border with pagans or edge of the map could periodicaly do slave raids. It would be like hunting party or tourney - events chain with few possible outcomes. Apart from that the slave raids would of course be doable also for pagan rulers, who could furthemore sell their own people to muslim merchants.

PS: The map expansion would be nice, but at this stage I'm trying to make all these suggestions as close to current setup so it won't require too drastic changes to the base game, and with the map expansion as little as possible (for obvious reasons which are subject to dozens of other discussions).

PPS: Also the Yoruba lands and civilization was something entirely different from what was in the Sahel, IIRC, and from the perspective of Mali, Ghana, Hausaland and Kanem/Bornu area was not that essential. Some jungle buffer zone would be nice addition but IMHO not necessary.
 
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