Nice work! It looks really good. I really love that you're making actual changes to show off your ideas.
DLC idea - Qabila - Desert tribes, Slaves, Cadet branches and enhanced islam
- Thread starter elvain
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I wish they would fix a bunch of the things not working properly in the game, interface, and fix the EU IV converter before they work on new DLC.
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I didn't explain well enough, outside of interface and font issues, here is one of the longstanding bugs I was talking about: https://forum.paradoxplaza.com/forum/index.php?threads/please-fix-aquitaine-and-flanders.901896/
It is not right to work on new DLC and continually ignore some of the most basic things we've asked for... many of them for years. Some of the people say "just go use a mod". Well why should PI require modders to fix their game? As the original poster stated he only plays Ironman so he can't use mods. His post has 65 agrees and almost no disagrees. It is really worrying if this is what we have in store for the rest of CK2, EU IV, and the upcoming HOI IV.
Elvain - you've done some very nice work. Your mod work as well. I'm sorry for bringing up priorities. Your ideas are so eloquently laid out I am concerned PI would once again, go off with another DLC idea and just continue to plug their ears.
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I didn't explain well enough, outside of interface and font issues, here is one of the longstanding bugs I was talking about: https://forum.paradoxplaza.com/forum/index.php?threads/please-fix-aquitaine-and-flanders.901896/
It is not right to work on new DLC and continually ignore some of the most basic things we've asked for... many of them for years. Some of the people say "just go use a mod". Well why should PI require modders to fix their game? As the original poster stated he only plays Ironman so he can't use mods. His post has 65 agrees and almost no disagrees. It is really worrying if this is what we have in store for the rest of CK2, EU IV, and the upcoming HOI IV.
Elvain - you've done some very nice work. Your mod work as well. I'm sorry for bringing up priorities. Your ideas are so eloquently laid out I am concerned PI would once again, go off with another DLC idea and just continue to plug their ears.
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Hmmm... any activities for peace time that helps strengthen the realm? Is it possible to survive as a builder-ruler rather than a warrior-ruler?
did you know that calling another person a troll is the essence of trolling and should not be done on this forum as all it is is flame?
Edited out the name of who was quoted
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You should also remember that quoting moderator posts is not allowed/should be avoided.
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Oh, I didn't know that, thanks for the warning. Why is it not allowed?
surprising how many don't read the forum rules
it violates rule #2 of the forum rules
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Well I think most people don't read the rules since they believe, like I did, that the forum rules most likely aren't that different from other forum's rules.
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Thanks, this always helps
So do I. And in the mean time, there is good time to collect, and think out propperly and in detail any ideas for that DLC, so it would be a comperhensive mechanic, which won't need getting fixed a day after release
You know, when they release the fix and start working on new DLC it would be too late to start a thread like this I would have sworn that most of these ideas are about things to prevent an internal war, but I might be mistaken. So thanks for letting me emphasize that the easiest and cheapest way to improve Asabiya is obviously strenghtening family ties between clans via marriages.
I also believe that keeping the governors's power balanced and keeping their characters happy, deciding whether your slave captain will be freed or not, or whether he will be allowed to visit harem to have children, or chosing whether you assign an emptied land to some other clan of your Qabila to balance the power of Ghulams and vice versa is kind of non-martial activities that happen during peace time and not warlike behaviour.
Apart from this you seem to have missed this part:
This is supposed to mean the Waqf (islamic religious foundation), appointing qadis (judges) and dealing with their requests to follow the right path (or they would seek a pretender from your dynasty or Qabila). I believe all this is pretty peace-time activity. Also there is this:
I have always considered trade or building shools as something almost entirely tied to peace rather than war.
And then this:
This obviously means that we have muslim traders in pagan lands. If you are in the northern part of that Trans-Saharan trade route, you would sooner or later find an event that some of your muslim merchants died in pagan lands and you and your qadi (judge) have to decide what to do with his property. Or you - as a muslim ruler on the trade route - are demanded to appoint a muslim authority for your muslim subjects trading in pagan lands, be it qadi or other form of authority, you can chose whether you embrace this gradual islamization of those areas, or you prefer to keep good relations with the pagan ruler on the other side of trade route, to keep money flowing into your coffers... or, if your fellow muslim traders are treated badly, you are forced to intervene on their behalf, first diplomaticaly and only then via war (waging a war across such a big desert isn't the best choice, you know).
Well, these are just some ideas, I am sure I have forgotten many, so if there is some particular thing you are missing here, I'm here to talk about your suggestions and working them out. Just go ahead and express them
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Fair enough. However, Aquitaine and Flanders is not something what would be blocked by this or any other potential DLC. Fixing it is a matter of 10-15 lines of code - if they copy it from a mod, it's 10 minutes of 1 guy's work (with downloading and searching for it included). No big deal, so the problem must be elswhere than that they're too busy working on other DLCs.
65 agrees? This thread's OP has almost 50+15 helpful, so not much less. Most of the dislikes I assume come from people like you, who prefer either other fixes or other DLCs (I can's say, though, only assume because none of them bothered to write a word).
On the contrary, this concept includes map and de jure fix and I don't see how such a fix could mean that other issues of the same kind don't get fixed with it.
Convertor etc. - if map gets overhauled, the convertor would need an update either, so again, this shouldn't block, but rather support addressing those issues, don't you think?
Thanks for a compliment.. But I really do believe none of the stuff here would block any of those fixes mentioned here (well, I do admit that interface is a different story).
@elvain: Managing trade and building schools are indeed what I have in mind. I'm probably thinking about vassals who would look down on rulers who don't wage war ala pagans.
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Good. I was still wondering what else could I add.
I even thought about including the Madhhabs (Islamic law schools), but I would like them to have some actual effect on gameplay (other than that it just exists - a mechanic for mechanic) and didn't find what they could influence and serve for. It might have some effect on relations between muslims or otowards other religions, but I'd like something little more.
The Madrasas for example are much more usefull IMHO - they could help to deal with enormous number of children the muslims have and instead of chosing education focus or tutor (all among many things), one would just chose one of few Madrasas in his realm and all the children/youth will be educated there according to school's focus and its main teacher.. school could be built up and its focus may expand, one could get events, attract scholars, inspire scholastic debates which may develop technologies (and upset the clerics/judges).. and furthemore, the same or little edited mechanics could be used for Christian universities!
Anyway really, if you have any ideas or see any flaws/holes in this concept, please voice them out, a debate can generate better system and may avoid possible bugs.
The scholastic debates part could be hard to depict properly unless we have a solid record of discussions during this time period. Also, as a ruler, I think you could opt to either involve yourself in the discussion, if you have a Learning education, or delegate your Chief Qadi to the job. The debate between traditions and scientific pursuits could be used in Christian settings too.
On trade matters, this might lead to an expansion beyond your scope. Projects for road building (or any infrastructure construction) and the protection of pilgrims on the haj (if you're close to Mecca and/or on routes traditionally used in this time period) could have major consequences for rulers.
On trade matters, this might lead to an expansion beyond your scope. Projects for road building (or any infrastructure construction) and the protection of pilgrims on the haj (if you're close to Mecca and/or on routes traditionally used in this time period) could have major consequences for rulers.
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Well, there were several precedents and at least the Muslim rulers at least in Persia were forced to be involved (via challenges from Faqihs/Islamic lawyers or Qadis/judges).
For instance Kakuyid emir Muhammad ibn Rustam had to deal with accusations against Ibn Sina (Avicenna), Nizamalmulk (Malikshah's vizier) was directly involved in appointing al-Ghazzali as leading teacher of one of his main madrasas (in Baghdad IIRC). IIRC, an Almohad mahdi himself took part in scholarly disputations with Maimonides, the Jewish philosopher etc.
The events could be like - "Your Qadi complains that XY, the head of your madrasa is exploring the mysteries of human body beyond the divine laws. The Qadi asks you to force him to stop this sinful behaviour." - option A - allow the studies / B - stup the heretics / C - appease the Qadi, but let the studies continue in secret... etc.
Or, "The head of your Madrasa in Baghdad thinks that the holy Qur'an should not be interpreted literaly, but that interpretations based on reason should be allowed"
Or "Students in Madrasa XY would like to build a tower with telescope so they could study stars"
- there could be various ways and events all depending on the focus of given Madrasa (could be science and/or medicine, law, rhetoric, philosophy (this might be only allowed in some Madhhabs or if ruler is Mu'tazilite) or even war, each giving bonuses like education focuses and edicating children respective way.
And yes, to some extent and with some adjustment and localisation into Christian cultural world, it could be used for universities (students demanding better treatment, students demanding teaching to be held in their own language instead of latin etc.)
The pilgrim roads and their maintenance are great direction. I thought about that and thanks for reminding it!
I don't think it would be beyond this scope, it would deepen the immersion.
Frankly I even thought it might be used as dynamic system to attract the pilgrims and divert the pilgrim routes, but that might be bit too much for our needs.
For instance Kakuyid emir Muhammad ibn Rustam had to deal with accusations against Ibn Sina (Avicenna), Nizamalmulk (Malikshah's vizier) was directly involved in appointing al-Ghazzali as leading teacher of one of his main madrasas (in Baghdad IIRC). IIRC, an Almohad mahdi himself took part in scholarly disputations with Maimonides, the Jewish philosopher etc.
The events could be like - "Your Qadi complains that XY, the head of your madrasa is exploring the mysteries of human body beyond the divine laws. The Qadi asks you to force him to stop this sinful behaviour." - option A - allow the studies / B - stup the heretics / C - appease the Qadi, but let the studies continue in secret... etc.
Or, "The head of your Madrasa in Baghdad thinks that the holy Qur'an should not be interpreted literaly, but that interpretations based on reason should be allowed"
Or "Students in Madrasa XY would like to build a tower with telescope so they could study stars"
- there could be various ways and events all depending on the focus of given Madrasa (could be science and/or medicine, law, rhetoric, philosophy (this might be only allowed in some Madhhabs or if ruler is Mu'tazilite) or even war, each giving bonuses like education focuses and edicating children respective way.
And yes, to some extent and with some adjustment and localisation into Christian cultural world, it could be used for universities (students demanding better treatment, students demanding teaching to be held in their own language instead of latin etc.)
The pilgrim roads and their maintenance are great direction. I thought about that and thanks for reminding it!
I don't think it would be beyond this scope, it would deepen the immersion.
Frankly I even thought it might be used as dynamic system to attract the pilgrims and divert the pilgrim routes, but that might be bit too much for our needs.
Given that the haj is a duty in Islam, I would reckon that what is stopping most pilgrims during this time era are the costs and great dangers involved. I do think that the highest liege who has control over Mecca could harvest great rewards or risk great penalties depending on his stewardship of the situation in Mecca, with other rulers receiving lesser rewards/risks the further away they are from the place.
With pilgrims comes the spread of (mis)information and commerce. Again, rulers on the routes (even sheiks) could opt to either treat the pilgrims fairly, or seek to extort them when it comes to certain costs. Maybe, when news of (dis)service reaches the Caliph's ear, he might be (dis)pleased.
We can look into assigning council members to oversee construction of major infrastructure projects, with long CDs on each project (or maybe once a lifetime for each ruler). For sheiks, such projects would obviously be smaller in scale. For higher ranked rulers, vanity projects may be pursued, but beware the consequences...
With pilgrims comes the spread of (mis)information and commerce. Again, rulers on the routes (even sheiks) could opt to either treat the pilgrims fairly, or seek to extort them when it comes to certain costs. Maybe, when news of (dis)service reaches the Caliph's ear, he might be (dis)pleased.
We can look into assigning council members to oversee construction of major infrastructure projects, with long CDs on each project (or maybe once a lifetime for each ruler). For sheiks, such projects would obviously be smaller in scale. For higher ranked rulers, vanity projects may be pursued, but beware the consequences...
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I was just thinking about this the other day. Pilgrimages, and disputes over the rights of pilgrims, were a pretty big deal during this time period.
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As someone who often plays in Persia and the Middle East, these changes are fantastic! I would love to see Paradox fix up Islam in general, and if they're not interested, this could make an incredible mod. I'm currently looking up your map mod as well, and that also looks great. Thanks for all of this!
I somehow overlooked this part of message, could you be more specific about this, please?
Did you think that this concept suggests it, or that it's the way desert nomads existed and it should work like this?
They surely were much more warlike than the sedentary populations (especially of the Middle East), but IMHO not this much.
After re-reading your post I do admit this might go a little beyond the scope. I don't think that the care for general roads infrastructure should be too high (unless the game expands much more into economy, which I would appreciate, but it really isn't meant to be part of this DLC concept). I imagine it as some set of events/events chains mainly for pilgrim routes or partialy for rulers with stewardship focus, or generally those ruling in areas with major trade routes.
Indeed. The pilgrims could bring much, but as you say, if not treated propperly, they could be a hassle for unpious and lazy ruler. The idea was that pilgrim routes could be displayed on the religious map and player may try to attract them (and with them trade) via building settlements, setting up laws etc. But this might be leading bit too much towards micromanagement and economy. Something I would welcome, TBH, but perhaps not too much in this kind of DLC.
Thanks! Hopefully if not included in DLC, it would somehow find a way into a mod. I'll do my best.
I'm liking the innovation I see here, but I think it would be more attractive if the actual mechanics were translated into English. So Qabila would be called tribal confederation, Asabiya becomes solidarity, etc. That way even if someone has very little knowledge of Islamic history they get a better idea of what was actually going on.
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Yes!!! Yes this is a huge one. This would add tremendously to being Islamic ruler. Honestly, they could build half a small DLC around this function alone.
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