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I would love this as DLC
 
Paradox please consider it seriously...

I would love this as DLC

Thanks for the support.

I'm currently considering to take a look at West African societies to be able to make some more detailed and reasonable suggestion. Anything else anybody would be interested in? Any part of what I have already outlined to be described in more detail?
 
Thanks for the support.

I'm currently considering to take a look at West African societies to be able to make some more detailed and reasonable suggestion. Anything else anybody would be interested in? Any part of what I have already outlined to be described in more detail?
Griots?!
 
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These are one example.
Frankly I plan to re-evaluate my research on West African empires of Wagadu and Mali and there were more interesting things.. and honestly in the literature I red, there wasn't much about griots so I have always considered them as sort of icon tied to West Africa about which nobody really knows anything.

I'd love to point out some specifics such as:
- West African syncretism - the co-existence of pagan and muslim communities (=> if sorted out, the game could get a system which would allow separate religious / cultural communities in the same province, this could be greatly beneficial also to simulate German colonization of Central Europe or the coexistence of various communities in the Middle East, existence of Jewish communities throughout medieval world etc.)
- the gold, salt and slave trade with its specifics, raids, negotiation with communities/merchants holding the monopoly of some kind of trade => inland republics, merchant societies or communities
- more African cults. There is varying info about various cults based in West Africa, but as far as I know many popular cults are quite anachronistic for our needs. But definitely West African paganism does deserve some love, since it honestly got nothing since ever.
I've realized that if they ever do this, they will most likely do it as the last hoorah.
 
These are one example.
Frankly I plan to re-evaluate my research on West African empires of Wagadu and Mali and there were more interesting things.. and honestly in the literature I red, there wasn't much about griots so I have always considered them as sort of icon tied to West Africa about which nobody really knows anything.

I'd love to point out some specifics such as:
- West African syncretism - the co-existence of pagan and muslim communities (=> if sorted out, the game could get a system which would allow separate religious / cultural communities in the same province, this could be greatly beneficial also to simulate German colonization of Central Europe or the coexistence of various communities in the Middle East, existence of Jewish communities throughout medieval world etc.)
- the gold, salt and slave trade with its specifics, raids, negotiation with communities/merchants holding the monopoly of some kind of trade => inland republics, merchant societies or communities
- more African cults. There is varying info about various cults based in West Africa, but as far as I know many popular cults are quite anachronistic for our needs. But definitely West African paganism does deserve some love, since it honestly got nothing since ever.

Speaking of Jews, I'd love to see some of your ideas for the Jewish diaspora.

I think CK+ had a good system for it, but nowadays I seem to never get any events about the Jews. Can't even find any Communities on the map.
 
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Jews were mentioned only as example.
The existence of minority communities or merchant communities or whoever they would be called would need to be developed and honestly I didn't put enough effort into that yet.

But in general the idea is to make the mechanic of these communities as abstract as possible so it could work for a wide range of communities such as the diaspora Jews in Europe and the Muslim world, the Berber and Arab merchants in West Africa, German communities/colonists in Eastern Central Europe, Soghdian merchants along the Silk road, West African Wangara merchants in gold-bearing regions like Bambuk or Bure. I believe there are many more such influential minorities throughout the CK2 world, so if anyone thinks I have forgotten one, don't hesitate to mention them here, especially if you have some more insight and could describe how they worked.

The idea is that the mechanic should abstract common workings of those communities such as:
- they usualy had separate settlements/quarters/ghettos outside the majority population settlements
- they had specific rights and duties, which could work as privileges, but at the same time were limiting their activities to certain (often quite large) degree
- they kept long-distance contacts with other members of their own community which enabled them to build networks very usefull for long-distance trade, such as lending money
- as outsiders they were often the ones who spreaded and spearhaded new interesting ideas and technologies, but in the times of instability, they were usually the first targets of massacres/pogroms from social majority

This is the common ground. Then I would like to have some localisations for each of those cultures. For instance some of the features may be limited only to certain communities, or could have tiny differences inside, such as different laws to apply/acquire. Then there could of course be localised events or event chains specific to each of the community depending 1) on the type of the community and 2) on the region where it is locates (a Jewish community in Andalusia should be facing slightly different challenges than Jewish community in Rheinland. At the same time an Arab merchant would have little different demands and also treatment in West Africa than Berber or Jewish merchant at the same place)

As I see it (based on my own general knowledge) the general ideas and features would most probably be based on the existence of Jewish, Arab/Berber and German expatriate communities and their interactions with local populations.
But frankly, I don't consider myself an expert about any of these, so if you think there is something about these communities, or any other expatriate community which would deserve to be mentioned, just tell me about it. If you could even forward me to some good sources, it would be even better!
A minorities system would be wonderful. Groups of minorities which could cause a culture to possibly even change, and extinct religions to not be extinct.
 
Special holdings might be ersatz solution.
But I'm afraid that without total overhaul of province system minorities can hardly be represented.
 
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I really like the idea of minority communities but I also tend to be of the mind that in some ways, provinces flip to different culture groups too easily. I notice this a lot in Africa, where Egyptians and Bedouins will usually wipe out the entire Ethiopian, Nubian and Somali cultures through fast conversion.

Maybe a simple way to fix that would be that any time a non-nomadic province flips culture, it gets an attribute with an extremely long decay time. For ex, say you're a Turk and you take Armenia, and eventually you culture-flip one of the counties to Turkish. That county automatically gets a flag called Armenian Minority, which slightly raises revolt risk and may also cause randomly-generated courtiers or barony-level rulers from that area to pop up as Armenians. Same for religion. The result is that if you hit, say, Invite Noble to Court ten times, maybe six of the 10 are Turkish Muslims, but three out of ten are Armenian Miaphysites and the tenth is an Armenian Muslim. The flag could stick on the county for a hundred years or more, with a slim chance of being removed every year after the first 100 years.

The attribute would vanish if the province was conquered back by Armenians, who'd get a Turkish Minority.
 
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I really like the idea of minority communities but I also tend to be of the mind that in some ways, provinces flip to different culture groups too easily. I notice this a lot in Africa, where Egyptians and Bedouins will usually wipe out the entire Ethiopian, Nubian and Somali cultures through fast conversion.

Maybe a simple way to fix that would be that any time a non-nomadic province flips culture, it gets an attribute with an extremely long decay time. For ex, say you're a Turk and you take Armenia, and eventually you culture-flip one of the counties to Turkish. That county automatically gets a flag called Armenian Minority, which slightly raises revolt risk and may also cause randomly-generated courtiers or barony-level rulers from that area to pop up as Armenians. Same for religion. The result is that if you hit, say, Invite Noble to Court ten times, maybe six of the 10 are Turkish Muslims, but three out of ten are Armenian Miaphysites and the tenth is an Armenian Muslim. The flag could stick on the county for a hundred years or more, with a slim chance of being removed every year after the first 100 years.

The attribute would vanish if the province was conquered back by Armenians, who'd get a Turkish Minority.
I agree.
I thought that introducing this thing would have to mean some necessary reork of cultural conversions - since this would make some easier, they will have to be tweaked in general.
And when at it I think there should be some modifiers tied to cultures which would define for instance:
- culture spread should be influenced by terrain so for example cultures like Egyptian or Levantine should spread slower in the deserts or mountains, but faster in plains, nomadic cultures should spread faster in plains or steppes, but slower in mountains or forests.
- on the other hand the cultures would also have defensive bonuses which mean that in their typical terrain they will resist harder than in other conditions.

That would IMHO slow down all nonsensial or unnatural cultural conversions
 
I do not know if it has been already mentioned, but Egyptian culture can be divided into Misri/Masri (Levantine Group) and Coptic (Byzantine group). The difference between these two nations are related not only to religion, but also language, traditions, even roots( Arab vs old Egyptian/Greek)
 
As I said above, I wouldn't want this to represent minorities as we understand them, but rather communities which have different legal, religious and other status and build their own separate settlements.

Communities are great idea! We can also use them for muslim and armenian trade quarters in Tibet.
 
Communities are great idea! We can also use them for muslim and armenian trade quarters in Tibet.
Exactly, these communities could work anywhere and give benefits to any part of CK2 world
 
I agree.
I thought that introducing this thing would have to mean some necessary reork of cultural conversions - since this would make some easier, they will have to be tweaked in general

The introduction and implementation of communities could easily be tiered, and capable of being modified via event or decision. However, the effect of some potential decisions would be less useful without some form of trade or at least a comparable trade route to the Silk Road in Europe, in my opinion.

Events/decisions can downshift, eliminate, or increase the size of the community, like:
• Expulsion (e.g. Jews in Iberia)
• Resettlement commands (e.g. Repoblación of the Duero in the early Reconquista)
• Settler invitations (e.g. Saxons in Transylvania, Germans along the Baltic littoral with the Teutons)
• Native independence uprisings (e.g. the revolts of the Copts in Egypt or the conflict between the Mawali and the Arabs in the early Caliphate)
• Uprisings against a community (e.g. Emico's pogroms against the Jews of the Rhineland in the late 1090s)
• Tribal migrations (e.g. Basically every steppe tribe ever)

Unless the character was doing a tribal migration or something similar, the cultural conversion process should always be tiered and much slower. Among similar co-religionists or people in close cultural groupings, the process should naturally come to a halt without some kind of manual decision to force conversion. (i.e. The Emperor should have to - with great difficulty - force conversion of the Dutch, for instance. The AI should also probably never really want to do this.) Ideally this could lead to certain cultural zones to remain mostly intact.
 
Hi, have been following this thread for a while and just recently downloaded the Middle Earth Project mod, and was wondering if anyone thought of using their mechanic for culture? In Middle Earth, there is severe depopulation, so they created a custom "Wilderness" Culture, and implemented a way of slowly colonizing provinces. You can spend lots of money and prestige to create or grow communities in provinces your steward is in or purge provinces you marshall is in. You could use the prosperity mechanic to model direct population, and then use county modifiers to represent colonization or minority communities.

IE: HRE conquers Bruge. Normally this would be an easy job of waiting until the culture and religion of the province converted, and then making all of the money. However, using MEP mechanics, the province owner would receive an event, giving them 3 choices: slow assimilation (current mechanics, but much slower), colonization (province gains malus titled "lack of [primary_culture_plural]", which would be a very large debuff that could only be fixed by spending lots of money and prestige inviting colonists, which would slowly decrease the penalty until it reaches zero, upon which the province is converted) and genocide (using historical values, current date and prosperity value spawns rebels in county and instantly converts province to primary culture and gives it the "lack of X" penalty, however this options gives gold at the cost of prestige and piety and significantly decreases the cost of colonizing). Every province would begin with the modifier "[old_culture_adjective] community" which could give many different bonuses, and have 5 levels based upon size of community. A province would gain other versions of this modifier through events or non-genocidal conversion, and could lose their communities through expulsion decisions or genocide

Back to our example, Bruge has a Large Dutch community (starting culture), Small Jewish community (event caused by neighbor France expelling Jews), and Tiny Italian community (Venetian trade post caused event). The province owner chooses colonization, and spends X gold in 4 intervals which slowly decreases the "lack of X" modifier until Germany becomes primary. Upon completion, the culture would shift to german, the province would gain Large German community modifier, switch the Large Dutch community with Dutch community, and the ruler would gain prestige. A decision is enacted inviting more jews to the county, increasing the community to just Jewish community, and an event triggered by having too many communities leads to the Italian community modifier disappearing.

I feel that this mechanic could do many things with events and decisions, like if someone occupies a province for to long, they may massacre a community, decreasing it by 1, 2, or 3 levels, or a certain community, like the jewish, donating money or raising a force in exchange for a loss in prestige and a growth in that community, which could lead to revolts. Instead of having the community establishing button be on the county, I think it should be a button you can push in decisions that causes an event to fire for the county an advisor is in. Things like the slave trade should also effect communities, and if a community is too large you could use your spymaster to start a revolt or have your marshall carry out a pogrom.

I understand I may be restating some points, I just wanted to get my ideas out and say that someone has already made a code for something similar to this.