DLC idea - Qabila - Desert tribes, Slaves, Cadet branches and enhanced islam

elvain

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This was originaly meant as overhaul of Islamic mechanics, but evolved into a set of ideas centered around The Qabila - the Arab tribe.
If put together, it could fit into a medium or large sized DLC (and partly its acompanying patch) and would offer some features:
1) centered around the main topic:
- mechanics for Arab tribes and tribal confederations
- Asabiya-tribal coherence- mechanic to override malfunctioning decadence
- new government and other mechanics for muslims such as enhanced role of religion etc.
- military and administrative slaves and slave companies etc.
2) fair amount of features usable anywhere:
- cadet branches
- scholarly institutions such as universities and madrasas
- playable inland trade entities
- playable religious orders
3) map overhaul of the muslim world and Africa.

Here is where I would imagine the lands of the Qabilas just before the arrival of the Seljuks:
7pqaAxM.jpg


We all know how Decadence concept is problematic since its beggining. One of the major problems I see is that when taking this concept from Ibn Khaldun, the authors have splited it from the major part of Ibn Khaldun's theories - the 'Asabiya - the tribal consciousness or tribal unity.

The game also desperately lacks mechanics for desert tribes and this suggestion would solve it by introducing:

The Qabila (the Arab tribe)


The idea of this DLC is to:
1) Add several new mechanics mainly to the Islamic rulers, but some of them may be used also for others.
2) Offer a new bookmark between 867 and 1066, especially in the Iranian intermezzo, preferably in the late 960's or early 970's
3) Offer a map overhaul of West, North and East Africa as well as the entire Middle East all the way into Persia and Central Asia
4) A tiny map expansion in West and central Africa offering more space to West Africans to play and expand, some place for the desert tribes (who will receive a new government) and a trade route to West Africa
5) 2 new government types, one specific for Muslims (Mulk), and one for Desert nomads (Qabila) – mainly Muslim, but not exclusively (There were Christian Beja/Blemmyes or pre-Islamic West African Touaregs).
6) A tribal mechanic (Asabiya), which should fix/replace decadence, a deeper interaction between the ruler and Islamic clerics. Introduction of Madrasas (Islamic schools) – a new tool for education (modified version could work for Christian Universities)
7) Possibly include inland trade states (republics) and new mechanics for West Africans
8) Possibly another new government to cover the religious orders such as Almoravids or Almohads, with possible usage also for Christians – the Monastic or knightly orders.
9) introduce new system military and administrative slaves - Ghulams/Mamluks, who will, in case of muslims replace mercenaries


The Qabila means tribal confederation in Arabic and it would be a mechanic somehow similar to nomadic Horde in the steppe areas, but with some specifics directly tied to the desert.

It would be a tool based on culture - every dynasty of particular culture (the entire Arabic group, the Kurds, the Baluch, the Berbers, the Beja, possibly the Turks when they accept Islam) will naturaly and inevitably be part of some Qabila, even if it is a single member Qabila*. This also includes the sedentary tribes, which would be the only ones suffering from Decadence.
* however such a single-member tribes can last no longer than one generation - once the founder of the Qabila dies, his youngest mature son will create his own clan separate from the older, or (if there is only one mature son), the Qabila will become part /clan/ of the closest Qabila.

Every Qabila will work similarily to Horde, but with some important differences (to be explained later). Basically it will consist of number of clans (dynasties) and each of them will have its internal 'Asabiya, and so will the entire Qabila (its 'Asabiya will be defined later).

Overview of the Qabila - Tribal confederation
WTtqFlQ.png


The basic idea is to create a principle dichotomy between Decadence and 'Asabiya.
Every dynasty's goal would be to keep its 'Asabiya as high as possible and to avoid falling into decadence.
Every dynasty/clan will have its own tribal army (like Horde) unless its 'Asabiya hits zero or its decadence is too high (Yes, the sedentarized dynasties can still have their own tribal army, but remarkably weaker than their nomadic counterparts).

The trick is that a dynasty/clan with high decadence is weakening the 'Asabiya of the entire Qabila and therefore, if the decadence reaches limit for decadence revolt as we have it now, it won't be some randomly generated adventurer who would dethrone the dynasty, but its own Qabila, in particular the leading clan (if there is any), or the strongest (if there is no leading clan ATM) with others most probably joining him.

When the decadent dynasty clan is defeated (yes the question is when, not if, because the decadent bastards will always lose to the keepers of the 'Asabiya!), the its members will be haunted like dirty dogs, just like it happened to the Umayyads and other decadent dynasties, and even the line of 'Ali (though in this case not through decadence). After a series of such brutal murders (starting with the most decadent ones, obviously), the leader of the remnants may be able to survive via hiding (event) and emerging as adventurer somewhere in the edges of islamic world. Possibly he could not only re-create his dynasty (which would technically survive), but create its own, single-clan Qabila and furthemore even a branch of islam (if the religious authority of his own branch is either weak or too strong.

But of course, there are tools how to prevent fading Tribal coherence or how to make its effects on the ruler smaller. For instance the use of slave armies or administrative slaves to govern your lands:
HKZwHOw.png


What has already been outlined:
1) Nomadic, sedentary and highland Qabilas
2) Leadership in the Qabila, the 'Asabiya concept
3) The ghulams - slave armies and governors
4) The Mulk government system
5) 'Asabiya - the tribal coherence
6) Madrasas and Universities - the scholarly institutions
7) Changes to the Iqta government
8) Inside the Qabila confederation and few more words about the Oasis holding
9) Trans-Saharan trade route and few things about Inland republics
10) Historical ingame examples of Qabilas + Creation of Cadet branches
11) Religious movements and Military orders
then there are posts where some details are further explained:
- Some ideas about islamic clergy in Qabila DLC
- Few details/info about map expansion in Africa (covering parts of the Sahara and few additions to West Africa)
- some thoughts on events about scholarly disputations and their interaction with the ruler
- Some details about how the ghulams rise in power and become threat to their eployer. + Ghulams' cultural specifics
- More details on how the tribes in Qabila confederation interact with each other and outer world

- Imperial bureaucracy in Islam + example of Imperial mechanics as they would work in Seljuk Sultanate
- Some very basic ideas about enhancement of West Africa
- Basic outline of possible
Minority/Merchant communities, and some more details about them

Some of the features outlined can be picked and used separately, others would IMHO work fine only if integrated with others. Maybe this could be inspiring for the devs or modders.

Other things can still be outlined or discussed...

PS: For those who like this thread, I also opened another set of suggestions about Imperial bureaucracy
 
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Nomadic, sedentary and highland Qabilas

As described above, the Qabilas will cover quite large areas and large set of cultures, let's now talk about them and their specifics.

First the most well known Nomadic Qabilas:
They are essentially the Arabs of the Nejd, Hijaz or generally of the Arabic peninsula and the fringes of Mesopotamia, who are now underrepresented in game, and the Berbers of the Sahara who, with the exception of the Almoravids, aren't there at all, thogh they should. The other, little less known are the Beja/Blemmyes who lived between the Red sea and Nubia, the Afar people of East Africa. And then there are the mysterious Baluch, Iranian peoples living on the eastern side of Persia.
I also think that if the Turks convert to Islam, they might become Qabilas instead of Hordes, because Qabilas should work better with Islam and are designed for it.
- Each culture will have their special buildings and will have little different troops (the Bedouin Arabs will ride mainly Camels, the Sanhaja of the Sahara will have almost exclusively the Camels, the Baluch on the other hand will use horses instead.
- Each Nomadic Qabila consists of nomadic clans (there can be also some sedentary clans inside) which have their clan armies - similar to hordes.
- Similarily to hordes, the number of soldiers in the clan army depends on number of empty holdings on the territory held by the clan.
- These nomadic Qabilas will be very warlike and if they stay in peace for too long, they will start getting penalty to their 'Asabiya.
- If the clans of the same Qabila fight each other, the Qabila's 'Asabiya is being reduced, OTOH when a clan joins war on a side of another clan of the same Qabila, their 'Asabiya increases (both the 'Asabiya of the joining clan and both of the entire Qabila. Also each victory where 2 clans of the same Qabila fought on the same side increases the 'Asabiya.
- The clans have county CB on every county they border on, if their internal 'Asabiya is high enough, the CB covers the whole duchy. If the Qabila is united, its leader can call kingdom CB.
- but the Qabila doesn't work as alliance - only if the 'Asabiya is very high and/or the Qabila is united.

The Highland Qabilas
- these are typically the Daylamites in north-west Iran - the people who managed to resist the entire Islamic empire a century after it has conquered everything around them. Then we have the Kurds and the Masmuda Berbers, or the Kabyles... and lastly the Yemeni people, all extremely vital in defending their lands from any attackers, stobburn to keep their own way of life.
They will use the 'Asabiya mainly for defensive wars - while the Nomadic Qabilas receive free CB, the Mountaineer don't, but their Qabila works as defensive alliance - even if the Qabila is not united.

Lastly we have the Sedentary Qabilas:
These are typically the cultures of sedentarized Arabs, like those in Syria, Egypt, Iraq and North Africa.
Their typical representatives were the Umayyads and other Arab dynasties who moved to agricultural areas, settled there and changed their way of life.
Typicaly, when a Nomadic or Mountaineer Qabila conquers entire kingdom with higher civilization, it receives an event if the ruler wants to keep his nomadic ways or settle.
If the ruler decides to settle, he still remains a member of his original Qabila and can call its other members based on 'Asabiya, if that would be high enough and decadence low enough.
Settling also changes his government type from Qabila into Mulk (so there won't be Iqta in Egypt and North Africa where this system of islamic fiefs never was used).
The Mulk government unlocks special feature, the Mamluks or Ghulams.
These can be used in 2 ways:
1) as special military force (because sedentary clans have smaller tribal army)
2) as governors in the Mulk govenrment.

In the capital of sedentary dynasty, the player gets slave marker building and Mameluk training grounds (could get better name).
Rising levels of these buildings will increase his capacity for his slave army and will also give the ruler bonus in loyalty for slave governors (if he unlocks the ability).
The Mulk government will give them the ability to assign slave or dynastic governors.

The Mamluks will be forbidden to marry a women, but they will be able to use Mamluk harems* (another new building). Under some circumstances the Mamluk captains or governors can have children and it would be up to the ruler to decide if the mamluk deserves to keep his child or not (keeping it will give him a chance to start his own dynasty).
This all obviously makes sedentary Qabilas pretty powerfull. But it has its downfalls. Most of the above mentioned buildings also produce decadence. So do the decisions to allow slave governors to keep their children etc. At the same time, if the ruler takes some decision which would be regarded as tyranical, he also receives decadence.
Now it won't be the decadent family members who will threaten the dynasty for its decadence, but the style of rule itself. Each replacement of slave governor won't hurt his prestige, but will create decadence, The more slave governors he has, the more decadence he gets, and, more importantly, the more will his Qabila be angry at him for weakening the 'Asabiya.

more details on the Mulk government will come later...
 
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Leadership in Qabila and the concept of 'Asabiya

Leadership in the Qabila:

- normally most of the Qabila confederations will have no leadership. The various tribes would exist as independent rulers of the duchy tier. They could even be made tributary or vasalized by bordering kingdoms, but only temporarily. With one exception, which is when the Qabila is united. (More about vasalization in more detail can be found here, but more propperly in this post dedicated to internal workings of the Qabila tribes.)
Unification happens when one tribe of the Qabila confederation feels strong enough and/or has his relations with other tribes in the confederation (Qabila) good enough, so it can claim leadership - the others will either agree and join, or oppose, and start a war. Depending on the number of opponents the losing side either remains in the existing Qabila confederation, or (if they are at least 2), they will become their own Qabila.

- if a leader of the Qabila dies (the ruler of the leading tribe), there's a vote. If there is a leader, who has enough prestige and piety AND his own tribe has its internal 'Asabiya high enough, he may become the new leader (again, those who agree join him, those who don't oppose him declare him a war). But if there is no leader with enough prestige and piety or no clan with high enough 'Asabiya, the Qabila confederation splits again into separate tribe states.

- even dis-united Qabila still has some form of 'Asabiya, in form of general ties between the leaders of the tribes, but it doesn't work as some form of internal alliance for Qabila members, except for Mounaineer Qabilas.

--------------------------------
And now the 'Asabiya itself

original few points:
- as suggested, it is the internal tribal solidarity as described by Ibn Khaldun.
- every Qabila will have its 'Asabiya and so will each clan of the Qabila.
- it is some kind of yang of Decadence - it is based on the piety and prestige of the ruler as well as his relations to other members of his dynasty and their piety and prestige.
- it is improved by just and pious behaviour, especially towards clan/dynasty members and/or other clans of the same Qabila
- 'Asabiya of the entire Qabila is defined by sum of their internal 'Asabiyas and their relations - it is strenghtened by marriages inside the Qabila and the wars fought by the clans on the same side, as well as it is weakened by wars between clans of the same Qabila.
- the Qabila's 'Asabiya also helps to define the strength of decadence revolt.
- if the Qabila's 'Asabiya is low, each of its clans is more vulnerable from outside attacks and similarily it applies to the clans' 'Asabiya.
- if internal 'Asabiya of a Nomadic clan reaches 0, it can either declare a war on its neighbour, or become a sedentary clan -> a dynasty and becomes subject of decadence.
a more detailed version can be found here
 
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Lemont Elwood

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I like where you're going with this, but you didn't give much background information. Can you explain what the Qabila was in history?
 
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elvain

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I like where you're going with this, but you didn't give much background information. Can you explain what the Qabila was in history?
thanks for this note! And sorry for that.
Qabila means a tribal confederation of Arab tribes... edited in the OP, hopefully it will help

For instance the tribes of Banu Sulaym and Banu Hilal originated from the same Qabila (Banu Qays), and when moved into North Africa in the 11th century, they themselves became their own Qabila etc. Is this explanation enough?
 
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thanks for this note! And sorry for that.
Qabila means a tribal confederation of Arab tribes... edited in the OP, hopefully it will help

For instance the tribes of Banu Sulaym and Banu Hilal originated from the same Qabila (Banu Qays), and when moved into North Africa in the 11th century, they themselves became their own Qabila etc. Is this explanation enough?

I think so. These 'Qabilas are basically realms. Instead of Decadence, you have Assabiya (and Assabiya is good).

I already want to play it. I've been disappointed, so far, with the treatment of Islam. I would definitely like a historically-grounded system that doesn't just chuck out doomstacks.
 
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Sounds good but can list some specific historic cases of this? The decadence revolt or invasion is supposed to represent the Abbasid revolution IIRC.
 
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I think so. These 'Qabilas are basically realms. Instead of Decadence, you have Assabiya (and Assabiya is good).

I already want to play it. I've been disappointed, so far, with the treatment of Islam. I would definitely like a historically-grounded system that doesn't just chuck out doomstacks.
That js right understanding.

Qabila is something beyond realm. Normaly the independent realms are the clans of the Qabila, but they can unite into the Qabila and then create something like Horde.

There woulr be 2 new govt. types: Qabila and Mulk. Qabila for nomads and mountaineer tribes and Mulk for sedentarized clans which remain in their qabilas.
These sedentary qabila clans are the dynasties we know and have both asabiya and decadence, while the nomadic and mountaineer clans have only asabiya.
 
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That js right understanding.

Qabila is something beyond realm. Normaly the independent realms are the clans of the Qabila, but they can unite into the Qabila and then create something like Horde.

There woulr be 2 new govt. types: Qabila and Mulk. Qabila for nomads and mountaineer tribes and Mulk for sedentarized clans which remain in their qabilas.
These sedentary qabila clans are the dynasties we know and have both asabiya and decadence, while the nomadic and mountaineer clans have only asabiya.

Can Qabilas directly own holdings?
 

elvain

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Sounds good but can list some specific historic cases of this? The decadence revolt or invasion is supposed to represent the Abbasid revolution IIRC.
This is meant to move everything even closer to historicity.
Both the Abbasids and Umayyads were members of the same tribe/tribal confederation - the Quraish. And so are the Hashimids i.e. This mechanic would limit the caliphate (for the sunnis) to the Quraish tribe.

The clans/dynasties are meant to be splitable like it is in the hordes, but the tribal confederation/Qabila/Horde would remain, even if it looses united political leadership.

As for historical examples.. for what? Decadence revolts? They are meant to remain, but move inside the Qabila.
The other example is the Hilalians in Maghreb, when they started fighting each other.

But the decadence revolt is just the top of the iceberg of this concept. In fact its marginal part. The main focus is to simulate internal fighting inside and among the tribal confederations. For instance the rivalry between the Zanata and Sanhaja Berber confederations. Once one of them was too powerfull and far stretched, its internal Asabiya was weakened and the other confederation took the initiative.

The concept - together with introducing the Mulk govt.system is meant to replace the current replacement of dynasties by random outside invasions with more regular internal collapses and usurpations by local (often slave) governors.
The rise of Zirids, they were appointed governors, who were of the tribal confederation Qabila typical for their region and when declared independence from Fatimids, their Qabila backed them.
This is meant to
1) give some mechanics to the tribes of the desert
2) draw a line between iqta of western Iran and the slave-based governance of the rest of islamic world which should be vulnerable to internal usurpations

Can Qabilas directly own holdings?
Yes, but with penalties. To avoid them they can pillage them, grant to some sedentaries (creating the Mulk) or become sedentaries themselves.
 
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It would be wonderful to have something like this for the under-represented Muslims. This sounds like something that could greatly increase the internal power struggles of realms, a direction which Paradox hopefully follows after Conclave. However since they already did a Muslim dlc and because this would be such a deep and complex system I can't really see them doing this.
 
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It would be wonderful to have something like this for the under-represented Muslims. This sounds like something that could greatly increase the internal power struggles of realms, a direction which Paradox hopefully follows after Conclave. However since they already did a Muslim dlc and because this would be such a deep and complex system I can't really see them doing this.

I can already imagine the programmers taking a look at this suggestion and doing their best Will Smith impersonations.
 
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elvain

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Sadly such a DLC would never happen... because the DLC model didn't support DLCs which requiere other DLCs.
Well accually this should be a free patch fixing broken decadence.
The essence of this DLC lies elswhere anyway, jt means introduction of a government type for 1/4 of the map and could feature a minor and perhaps the only bearable map eypansion
 
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Well accually this should be a free patch fixing broken decadence.
The essence of this DLC lies elswhere anyway, jt means introduction of a government type for 1/4 of the map and could feature a minor and perhaps the only bearable map eypansion

Yes in a patch this would be possible. But unlikely for CK2 I think... But we can still hope for CK3. Paradox ffixed the bad Shogunate mechanics from EU3 in EU4 too. :)
 
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So, I take it that ensuring peace and prosperity is considered decadent under your model. Okay...
Well.... not? :) but from what I have revealed yet, there is no wonder you have the impression

The Qabilas, driven by Asabiya will, obviously, be very warlike, actually like any nomads or wild tribal societies. But the Asabia (which is supposed to mean as some kind of oposite mechanism to decadence) doesn't require war, it requires the clan members and the clans of the Qabila to support each other and stay together. In this game it is, obviously, most visible via the marriages and wars fought together.

And as for the fixture of decadence, it doesn't regard stability as decadence. Decadence would rise for unpious actions (such as building harems for mameluks or allowing mamluks to have bastards), or actions, which would in other system be regarded as tyranical. Unfortunately, I haven't yet gotten to the details of the rule of islam and its clerics under the Mulk government, where I will explain the reasoning for decadence/Asabia penalties for using too much slaves instead of other governors regarded as more islamic.

EDIT:
Yes in a patch this would be possible. But unlikely for CK2 I think... But we can still hope for CK3. Paradox ffixed the bad Shogunate mechanics from EU3 in EU4 too. :)
Well, maybe, but why not hope and give them the ideas already for CK2? IMHO better than just praying and hoping.
Islam, though it has received its DLC, it is worthless. What did it introduce? West Africa which got nothing to do there, a broken mechanic and 4 special muslim traits, and later a system of government which differs in no more than exactly one thing from the feudal system.

There were already several DLCs improving pagans (in Europe, the Steppe and Asia, the other have been expanding mechanics mainly in Europe (The Conclave again fits perfectly to the Western world pushing the muslim system of governmnent much farther from historical reality, it wouldn't be bad to fix it again.

more information will come soon and hopefully it will make the ideas more complete...
 
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It would be wonderful to have something like this for the under-represented Muslims. This sounds like something that could greatly increase the internal power struggles of realms, a direction which Paradox hopefully follows after Conclave. However since they already did a Muslim dlc and because this would be such a deep and complex system I can't really see them doing this.
Actually it is designed to work very similarily to already existing ingame features.
The Qabila is just a derivation of Horde, some its mechanics are derived from the republic and the Mulk system is adjustion of viceroyalties. No headach for programmers/coders who have everything unlocked (can work with hardcoded things)
 
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