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grayworks

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In EU4 there has always been something that I felt was missing, Espionage.

It is an area that is briefly touched on from an unlockable ideas point of view and also in the background for things such as basic covert operations.


I think the merit behind the above areas is good but it has so much potential to be great. Here is how I would improve it:


1) Espionage should be available straight away.


2) Spies should be acquired passively and the number of spies available is proportionate to the level of development in your country


3) The actions that your spy takes costs ducats. If an action is instant, then there is an upfront cost of ducats. If the action is over a period of time (such as supporting rebels) then it will have a monthly cost. The amount of ducats is proportionate to the difficulty of the action and the level of skill of your spy.


4) Your spies can be used offensively or defensively


5) Actions against rivals carry a 20% discount (as per EU4)


6) The Actions, both offensive and defensive should have a series of event chains where you can decide how to proceed. For example, “Should we send those rebels arms and men in order to decrease the time to rebellion and improve the forces? If yes then there is a higher chance of being caught and suffering penalties.”

Here is an example of what it could look like.[1]



Real Life Examples

A prominent figure in the pre-industrial world of espionage was a guy known as Francis Walsingham. To briefly summarize wikipedia,

Walsingham rose from relative obscurity to become one of the small coterie who directed the Elizabethan state, overseeing foreign, domestic and religious policy. He served as English ambassador to France in the early 1570s and witnessed the St. Bartholomew's Day massacre. As principal secretary, he supported exploration, colonization, the use of England's maritime strength and the plantation of Ireland. He worked to bring Scotland and England together. Overall, his foreign policy demonstrated a new understanding of the role of England as a maritime, Protestant power in an increasingly global economy. He oversaw operations that penetrated Spanish military preparation, gathered intelligence from across Europe, disrupted a range of plots against Elizabeth and secured the execution of Mary, Queen of Scots.

The Life of the Spy


The spies that you receive are quite precious. You do get them passively but not on a regular basis. If your spy is caught there is a chance that they will be executed and there will be a moderately long time before you receive a new one.

Your Spy can earn experience from successful actions, which reduces the cost of future actions by that spy and increases the chance of success.


Loyalty to your country is a modifier that effects your Spy’s actions. Various things can influence their loyalty. For example if you are highly overextended or have just switched religions, that can influence how loyal they are. If they become disloyal, there is a chance that they will approach other foreign powers for help against your tyrannical rule.

However if they are loyal to you and for example are caught performing an action, there is a chance that they will not reveal details about their employer or the plot, which saves your country from being penalized.


Offensive Covert Actions:


Many of these actions were seen in EU3 and some are available in EU4 but I want to take this to the next level.


1) Infiltrate Administration. (Access to your enemies’ details about manpower, income, force limit etc.)
This information is currently presented in the ledger but I think that is too easy. Governments of the eras in EU4 surely did not have access to that level of data about every known country on Earth.


What I would propose is to have a spy infiltrate that administration and report back those details. The amount of information would be proportionate to the skill of your spy.

It would range from basic information that you see in the ledger, to enemy merchant placements and troop & naval movements.


2) Fabrication of Claims should be as standard in EU4 albeit with a small monthly ducat cost as per other covert actions however the cost would be in proportion to the size of the country that you are fabricating against. Smaller countries would be cheaper in comparison to the larger ones.


3) Sabotage Production would cause a province to increase the amount of time it takes to build a unit or building by 50%


4) Sabotage Supply would cause a target province to decrease the supply limit by 50%. Also can be used on own provinces if being sieged.


5) Sabotage Trade would cause a country to lose a % of trade power in a targeted node


6) Support Rebels would be as per EU4 except they would not be actioned by a diplomat.
To improve this further, I would advise that you see the status of the rebellion pre revolt and be sent an event chain with pop ups such as, “the choice of speeding up the rebellion by sending weapons”.


7) Sow Discontent would be as per EU4 except they would not be actioned by a diplomat (+3 unrest, -1 legitimacy or -1 republican tradition)



8) Assassination of Advisor as per EU3. This would also prevent the targeted country from hiring a new advisor for 6 months.


9) Sabotage Reputation would be as per EU4 except they would not be actioned by a diplomat.
(Choice of -50 relations penalty or -1 diplomatic reputation)


10) Assassination of Heir would be an incredibly difficult assignment. But I think it is worth putting in for historical significance. The penalties for discovery would be massive hits to aggressive expansion, diplomatic relations and reputation.



Defensive Covert Actions:


1) Counter Espionage.
A passive action that has one or more of your spies attempt to prevent covert actions in your country. The chance of success is linked to the level of skill of your spy. This action would cost the least amount of ducats but would increase as you add more spies.


2) Infiltration of Foreign Spy Agency. Puts one of your spies into a targeted country’s agency. This allows you to receive notifications when the country performs covert actions. If the action takes place in your country, there is a much higher chance of apprehending the foreign spy.


3) Turn a Spy.
This converts a Foreign Spy to work for you against their home country. There are 3 possible scenarios where this could happen.

a) When you discover a Foreign Spy attempting to perform an action against your country, there is a chance that the Spy will be caught and you can attempt to convert the Spy to your cause.
b) After infiltrating the Foreign Agency there is a chance that you can attempt to convert one of their spies to your cause.
c) If a country has poor modifiers such as high aggressive expansion, >100% Overextension or is going through a disaster, foreign spies may approach you for help against their poor ruler in exchange for information, offensive actions or ducats.



4) Spread False Information. With this you can try to cause confusion to the target country about your actions. For example you could spread false information about a country about to be attacked or provinces that your troops will move to next.


5) Reveal Enemy Actions to Allies. If you receive information about your enemy taking an action against an Ally you could choose to reveal that information to them and expose your enemy.

 
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Ilightmaster

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It's funny that's your first thread on the forum is about revamping espionnage. This is something i'm fighting for since AoW because i completely agree with you.

Those are good suggestions as many i've seen on the forum. I hope they will change those in an impending expansion.
 
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t6.28

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I like some of those ideas.
What I'd like to add would be an option to create a conflict, where you give two other nations a CB against each other and worsen their relations.
 
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solidprice

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Now this would keep people busy between wars.
 

Ilightmaster

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I think the subject of a next expansion should start through the history of marranism in spain. This is a bridge between religious wars and spies.

For instance Joseph Nassi duc of naxos (a marran who worked with soliman the great ) was clearly involve in the independance of the united provinces ( netherlands ). A few number of Marrans were representatives and spies in europe and played an important role during this timeline ( for example great britain was informed of the attack by the great armada because they had privileged relations with them since the great charte)
 

ozyhuboi

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I actually had a few ideas for assassinations:

People available to assassinate: Military leaders (generals, admirals, conquistadors, etc), advisers, agents (diplomats, merchants, other spies), and of course national leaders and heirs.

Assassination penalties: penalties increase for higher level targets, agents < leaders < advisers < heir < ruler. Like in CK2, we have several possible outcomes. For simplicity, let's mark any success and not discovered as "S" and any failure and being discovered as "F". So succeeding in a mission and being caught would be marked SF, not succeeding and not being caught would be FS, not success and caught as FF and finally success and not caught (best possible outcome) as SS. Possible penalties and effects discussed below.

Effects:
First, agents once killed will be unavailable to be used for a period of time (say, a year or two) and lose or be stopped in whatever they were doing. So if you hit a merchant, they will lose whatever effect they had in the node. If you hit a missionary, conversion will stop. If you hit a diplomat, all fabrication progress will be lost, etc. SS, agent dies and nobody knows better. FS, nation of target receives a "heightened security" event and get a small spy defense bonus. SF, agent dies and nation of target get significant relationship penalty with nation of spy. FF, significant relationship penalty between nation of target and nation of spy, with slight bonus in spy defense for nation of target and slight malus in spy offense for nation of target.
(jeez that was long)

Second, leaders are much more important obviously and I'd like to think leaders out in the field are easier to kill than leaders in the capital (not leading an army), please feel free to discuss this. Naturally, once hit, the leader dies and could be quite troublesome in the middle of battle. SS, leader dies and if leading an army the army takes a morale/discipline hit. FS, NoT gets bonus to spy defense. SF, leader dies and if leading army/navy takes morale/discipline hit and NoT gets major relationship penalty and diplomatic insult CB with NoS. FF, NoT gets major relationship penalty and diplomatic insult CB with NoS.

Third, OP mentioned advisers and I thought that was good and wanted to expand with the possibilities. For my sanity, let's say the effects are basically the same for the leaders except for those army/navy bits. Also, the NoT could take a brief hit in whatever bonus the leader was providing due to their sudden passing or something.

Fourth, heirs and leader, oh boy this is going to be long, better strap in. I was thinking that deaths of leaders and heirs could have very serious and complicated consequences in the form of an "ultimatum" system, think start of WWI. If a nation loses their heir or ruler, it's serious. We already have a -2 stab hit from ruler death in battle and -1 stab hit from heir death in battle. If a nation is found complicit in the death of one's heir or ruler, THIS MEANS WAR. Of course, war may not be entirely convenient at the moment, but an ordinary "diplo insult" CB seems far too weak. So let me start describing the "ultimatum" system. So if a nation is discovered to be involved in assassinating a ruler, a full on SF or FF, the ultimatum system would be triggered. This would essentially be like a "peace treaty" except now happening before a war where the NoT will demand certain concessions from the NoS to "avoid" a war. These demands will not be attached to warscore but to prestige, essentially the more things the NoT demands the less of a prestige hit they take, which is quite serious because if they demand nothing and let the NoS go, that would be -100 prestige. However, the more demands the NoT makes, the less like the NoS will accept them peacefully, making them more likely to reject it in favor of a war. So when the ultimatum is essentially rejected, the NoT will declare offensive war on the NoS with reduced warscore/DIP/AE cost on the points mentioned in the concessions, like for territory or vassilization. So SS, the ruler/heir dies and the stab hits fall, the NoT and NoS receive a message about suspicious circumstances. FS, major spy defense bonus for NoT, possibly an event chain relating to improving spy defense. SF and FF will lead to the ultimatum system.

Now I understand the whole "ultimatum" system sounds a little too modern for the EUIV era. While the term evokes thoughts of WWI, what I'm sort of thinking about is many political assassinations that occurred throughout the Renaissance. Remember, Machiavelli wrote The Prince as a sort of a guide to help Princes not only rule wisely, but most importantly to avoid assassination, sort of the whole point of the "better to be hate or loved" business. Assassinations were rampant in Renaissance Italy as various factions in the many Northern Italian city-states vied for power and commonly went after each other, failures having serious implications. A more concrete example that comes to mind right now is the assassination of a Burgundian duke which resulted in the states support of the English over the French, helping the English make serious gains in the HYW, though I believe this happened slightly before the EUIV timeframe, i think it's close enough to be relevant. I can't really think of any other important assassinations off the top of my head right now.

As for a good name for this expansion, I definitely think The Prince would be a fitting name, as the expansion could also include changes to rulers and maybe the MP system, along with expansion in East Asia (finger crossed damnit).
 
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EmperorZelos

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assasinations would be game breaker. it is not possible in EU4.
Not at all if done right, personal unions are close to useless as they stand now
 

grommile

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Not at all if done right, personal unions are close to useless as they stand now
"Assassinate Heir" is one of those tricky things where either it is hilariously overpowered (because the penalty for discovery is tolerable, or because even though the penalty for discovery is theoretically ruinous, you've managed to stack so much Spy Offense to be confident of not getting caught), or it is basically worthless (because the penalty for discovery is unacceptable and you can't get enough SO).
 

EmperorZelos

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"Assassinate Heir" is one of those tricky things where either it is hilariously overpowered (because the penalty for discovery is tolerable, or because even though the penalty for discovery is theoretically ruinous, you've managed to stack so much Spy Offense to be confident of not getting caught), or it is basically worthless (because the penalty for discovery is unacceptable and you can't get enough SO).

Could be solved by having it be random between acceptable and unacceptable in the AE it causes, that way you never know how it'll turn out, it may be worth it, it may not.
 
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lolada

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I like many of your suggestions, so +1 and agree frome me. I do dislike some things, for one there's too many options in your list. We should focus on quality not on quantity : - ), for espionage we don't need that many options, just that those that we have have sense and that they are worth using

Offensive Covert Actions:

3) Sabotage Production would cause a province to increase the amount of time it takes to build a unit or building by 50%
- don't need this at all in game, whats the point..

5) Sabotage Trade would cause a country to lose a % of trade power in a targeted node
- too artificial, also no need to have this, there is pirating and embargoes

8) Assassination of Advisor as per EU3. This would also prevent the targeted country from hiring a new advisor for 6 months.
- don't need this at all in game, whats the point..

9) Sabotage Reputation would be as per EU4 except they would not be actioned by a diplomat.
(Choice of -50 relations penalty or -1 diplomatic reputation)


- I would include both effect to be worth using, -relation shoudl be over time, not too slow, not too quick ofc.

Defensive Covert Actions:


1) Counter Espionage.


- Higher chance to kill enemy spies -_-. For this to be useful enemy spies need to be able to do some real damage from time to time or its a waste of coding. Should be doable +1.

2) Puts one of your spies into a targeted country’s agency. This allows you to receive notifications when the country performs covert actions.
5) Reveal Enemy Actions to Allies.


- this looks like one action: Add diplomatic option IF spy caught to tell a country: "Hey they are spying on you!" to get something like +50 relation bonus

4) Spread False Information.

- looks useless, this look like a copy of Sabotage reputation
 

BrokenSky

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Espionage overhaul is good I think? It'd be nice to have options to be able to use espionage as a small country as a way of getting an edge against a larger one?

10) Assassination of Heir would be an incredibly difficult assignment. But I think it is worth putting in for historical significance. The penalties for discovery would be massive hits to aggressive expansion, diplomatic relations and reputation.

And carry a stability hit if you do it to a nation you have a royal marriage / same dynasty as, and are caught.
 
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justin96

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I like some of those ideas.
What I'd like to add would be an option to create a conflict, where you give two other nations a CB against each other and worsen their relations.
That might work well with an action to increase negative diplomatic relations between two country until they hate each other, which would then allow you to influence one nation to get a CB on the other nation.